That test was with one guy that did the test one time. He never sprinted or even accelerated, just maintained the same speed. ;)

There's a scientific journal article that shows the opposite here . It only says that clipless is more efficient. It doesn't have anything to say about pedaling technique.

The last few sentences:

I've seen studies that suggest that people don't really pull up with clipless pedals. Other studies have shown that with training people can alter their pedaling style and can effectively pull backward and maybe up but that it is actually less efficient than the way people would normally pedal.

Another study shows that changing cleat position affect how different muscles are engaged in pedaling and when, which lead to the theory that moving the cleats farther back than they typically are would produce a smoother and more efficient pedal stroke with less risk of injury.

Basically I wasted a bunch a time looking at this stuff but it was interesting. My conclusion is that in spite of all the studies, we don't have a complete understanding of the physiology and mechanics of pedaling. For example one study showed different results in the relative force applied at various pedal positions depending on whether you're a casual cyclist, a roadie, or a triathlete. And this makes sense when you think about it. It's because of muscle adaptations. But does that mean triathletes should use different retention than roadies?

What I fall back on is that foot retention is over 100 years old. In some cases it was nothing more than a couple of leather straps. I don't think it's the cycling industry foisting something on us just to make a few bucks. Roadies (like a lot of people) are a monkey see, monkey do group. I have to believe though that if somebody figured out along the way that they could save several grams by going with platforms without any loss of performance, the foot retention business would have crashed a long time ago.

I'm only seeing a single page, and no tables or charts. Apparently there were some differences noted, but they didn't reach statistical significance (typically 95% confidence interval), so it is hard to read too much into the findings.

I've ridden with toclips or clipless for so long that I think I've forgotten how to ride a bike without foot retention.

Perhaps I should try some driveway sprints with cleats, and flats. One thing I'm sure of is that I would have to significantly gear down and increase my cadence to effectively use the flats. I.E. learning a whole new pedalling technique.

Getting maximum power with a half a stroke??? Hmmm???? My previous attempts to ride up the driveway with a MTB and flats were significantly slower, with less power (speed & fatigue) than with the clipless.

My wife and I both have used them for years and have never experienced this.

Perhaps you just have to get used to them...

I'm not really sure if we're talking about the same thing. With both spd's and time atac's, when you click in there's a definite click and a feel as the cleat clips in. With eggbeaters there was not. It's not like it wouldn't clip in, I just wasn't sure by feel if it had successfully clipped in or not.

(Well at first my right shoe wouldn't clip in, but I added the shim included with the cleats then it was fine).

So did they finally work with the shim?

I do get a definite click with mine so it sounds like you might have had an installation error...

Yeah, they worked with the shim. It was many years ago...any idea when you bought yours? Maybe they redesigned something in more recent models and my experience with them is out of date.

There's 3 points and at least 2 of them are obviously good reasons (Maybe it's simply that for a pro fitter it's easier to make sure the foot stays in the same position with clipless. Maybe for certain people with certain issues clipless happens to help for that specific issue). I'm not getting into exagerrated rediculous claims of "this one time a fitter recommended clipless so they're always better all the time!".

Other studies I've read about that I don't have quick links for analyzed the pedal stroke of top bike race winners, and found that they don't pull up. They do unweight the foot, but they don't pull up - at least in regular riding on the flat. The idea is that it's possible to pull up, but the top contenders find that a pedal stroke involving pulling up is not as good for winning the race as a pedal stroke that does not pull up.

I'm not you obviously, so that's the extent of what I know. Being able to pull up does not automatically mean more power.

It sounds like you're doing a lot of things at once though. Obviously you're losing weight and paying more attention to diet and exercise - which itself often causes speed gains. You might be fitting on your bike differently with clipless (just switching the pedals means you fit differently as different shoes have different heights), you may have gone to a fitter as well?

Flats or clipless, there are people much faster than me on the trail because they're far more regular riders than I am.

Glad to hear it fixed your problem, I can certainly see how clipless pedals could be one good fix for certain specific problems like feet tilting or a habit of poor foot placement. It's also possible that there would also be other ways to fix the problem as well.

I think a cage is the worst of everything - straps over your feet, difficult to get out in an emergency, and you're still not as connected to the pedals as with clipless. I'd take clipless over a strap/cage any time.

I'm not saying "all clipless is useless", obviously pro racers continue to wear them. I'm just saying the claims of efficiency are incredibly overblown, in my experience and from a number of studies. Clipless's main advantage is foot retention - keeping your foot on the pedal no matter the cadence or how hard you're mashing on the pedal, etc. Of course you are free to disagree.

Thanks for the link!

To be fair, that uses language like "suggesting" and "suggests", the studies author's are saying it suggests more research is needed. They also say:

RESULTS: A one-way ANOVA with repeated measures was conducted to evaluate the relationship between pedal type and the dependent
variables, oxygen consumption and lactic acid production. While there were differences in performance under the three pedal conditions,
these differences were not statistically significant for either the oxygen consumption or the lactic acid production.


Which is a bit confusing, because they're saying the differences in lactic acid were not statistically significant, then later saying the differences in lactic acid levels meant something...hard to figure out what they mean. Their conclusion is that more research is needed, not that clipless is confirmed to be better. (Link I posted was a test on one guy, so no better :-)).

I agree 100%.

I think the primary purpose of clipless is foot retention. You're spinning at 110rpm, you try to sprint past someone around a corner, the last thing you want is for your foot to slip off the pedal. You don't even want to have to think about it. Clipless is the most secure/lightweight system we have for that, that also lets you get your foot out suddenly.

That doesn't mean there is / is not an efficiency advantage.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

This got really way to long and rambly. There may be some exception, but in general I've found most people I've talked to or seen have a lot less trouble with flat pedals and leg or knee pain than do they do with clipless. Clipless is a lot more likely to require adjustment or pro advice to get comfortable with. It's just like how I've also seen road bikes to be more likely to need fittings and adjustment to get comfortable compared to more upright hybrid/mountain bikes.

I'm not spinning at 100 RPMs. Sometime I'll get the power meters to evaluate the actual stroke. And, I know the stroke varies with my riding.

This is from one study I found a while ago, in which a non-intertial load was studied (like a hard hill climb?) in which a moderate force was applied throughout the stroke. Certainly most of the force is downward, but some throughout the stroke.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=477872

One might say it is just a little bit of upward force, but every little bit helps. When standing, pulling up on one side adds to the downward force on the opposite side.

Absolutely. And a bit of weight loss probably helps. No "fitter". I'd imagine they'd roll their eyes looking at my bike if I showed up :P

My interpretation is that part of MY knee aches is in tendons somewhat like shin splints, and strengthening helps.
Yes, it helped.
It really became an issue with longer rides (100 mile plus). Perhaps other pedals and footwear would have helped, but bike specific equipment is good.

I have a set of Winwood Instep toeclip adapters (which I tried with my cycling shoes, not street shoes). A bit odd... I found the flat pedal support was awkward, and there was far to much float. I think I have a pair of integrated pedal/toeclips, that I might try sometime as an alternative to the open cage pedals.

Actually, with decades of practice, they are easy to get out of. Perhaps easier than the clipless. Very natural, just pull down and back.

It has been a while since I've done toeclips + cleats, but those took a twisting motion like clipless. A bit tougher to extract the feet with the straps tight, but possible.

Quite possible. I've had foot retention since... ummm... a pre-teen.

One thing that happens is the people migrating to foot retention are also the ones that are often riding further. But, the foot retention isn't without issues.

It's a complicated system, it's hard to tell exactly what helps and what hinders without study. Like I said I don't know whether there's some very small increase in efficiency with clipless, I just know it's not huge and for commuting unlikely to increase my speed to work enough to overcome the extra time I'd spend changing shoes. :-)

I am still a little on the fence about what I think, I'm riding with flats now, I might try clipless one more time if I can find a wider clipless shoe that fits my foot better. I do like being able to just step off the bike and walk with normal shoes though.

Like I said I'm not trying to declare clipless useless or something, obviously all the pro's still use them. I just think a lot of people think they're primarily about efficiency and they're not, and "in general" it's more work to get clipless comfortable. It's like an office chair, one kind of chair can be more comfortable in general than another one, but for a few people it can be the opposite.

I would personally suggest trying a flat pedal with pins like an Easton Flatboy, or a Hope f20 (depends if you want to pay more for a lighter pedal). And a pair of flat shoes designed for biking, like a Chrome Kursk or something from Five Ten. Just a suggestion. Pins and shoes designed for biking have worked well for me for keeping my feet solidly on the pedals.

No doubt some of this is what you're used to. I think clipless is more natural, because the motion is to twist your foot to the side just like you would naturally do if you wanted to put a foot down with flats. With a cage you have to train your foot to pull back first, rather than going to the side like my foot would normally go in an emergency. Takes half a second longer to pull back first I would think to.

Yeah, neither is perfect.

Both are easy, and I've never gotten confused between one and the other. Perhaps practice a decade ago with the toeclips + cleats helped the transition to clipless.

My interpretation is actually the opposite, however. With the toeclips, your movement to release is downward... and thus quicker to than the clipless which requires an out and up movement.

I do like to loosen the straps, but I think it is more because it is easier to get the feet back into the pedals the next time.

With a bit of practice, unclipping is not a major problem.

http://www.shimano.com/publish/conte..._mountain.html

platform on one side, spd on the other. i love them on my commuter.

The main advantage of clipless pedals is not the ability to add force on the upstroke. It's the fact that I don't need to expend effort keeping my feet on the pedals. The higher the cadence you like to ride, the more you feel the benefit. My current commuter has flat pedals, and there are times (especially during shifts) where one of my feet will slide out of position on the pedal. That just isn't an issue with clipless pedals.

Again, if you're going to rock platforms, get some toe cages.

We actually got ours at least 7 years ago. They are the full SS version, not the cheapos with the chrome plated cages; that might make a difference.

I recently got new shoes (Shimano spin shoes, if you can believe that!) and used the shims just because I liked the idea, but my wife has used both Sidis and MAVICs without the shims and they work just fine.

Huh, maybe that's the difference. I know there definitely was no click when you clipped in on the pair I owned several years ago. Hmm.

My two pairs of Eggbeater 1's both give a nice audible 'click' when I go in or out; both less than a year old

I don't care the first bit about efficiency or power. If I did the first thing I would do would be to ditch the 37lb commuter bike and ride my 16lb road bike everywhere.

I don't care about anything but that, in foul weather, I feel more comfortable with the retention provided by being clipped in. Nice days platforms and Tevas are good up to thirty miles.

I ride dual sided Shimano touring pedals. M-5something. Both sides work great according to the needs of the day. I've had at least a half dozen different SPD pedals and that many pairs of shoes. The touring pedals and Tevas are my favorite....for nice days. Bad weather....don't care much about shoes. They all work alright.

Shimano A530 pedals? Alright clipped in. Slick as owl snot on a glass door knob as soon as they see water on the platform side.

Don't worry at all about flipping pedals to clip in or ride platform. IT IS NOT AN ISSUE. No problems....I'd hate to be the person who started that claim. If you can walk to the bike, you have enough intelligence to ride with double sided pedals.

I found it to be an issue, because you're looking down to flip over the pedal at intersections - the exact time you should have your head up and looking for cars. Could I deal with it? Probably. Was it worth the hassle? It just was not to me, more detriment than advantage imo.

Thanks, all. I had intended to say that I have SPD-SL pedals and shoes for my road bike, but was considering a switch to SPD. In the end, I'm going to stick with flats on the commute. As a rider, and specifically on my stop and go commuting route that starts in the suburbs and gets more urban at the end, I don't think I will get a huge benefit from being clipped in on my commute.

I have Shimano double sided M324 pedals on my primary commuter, pinned platforms on my backup, toe clips on my road bike, and various plain pedals on the rest.
I think you're both right..................all options have advantages and disadvantages so I cover all the bases.

I still have a pair of Look pedals I purchased in the early 80s, but haven't used them in 30 years as road clipless are the only pedals I find totally unacceptable.

Exactly why I went with Egg Beaters; they are always facing the right way...

I commute on a road bike, and use SPD pedals with the more rigid soled roadie-esque type shoes. Now I feel downright un.stable riding a bike with platform pedals

You're just asserting this but there's no particular reason to believe that it's true. Riding with pedals and cleat makes it easier for me to make adjustments to avoid chronic injury problems that I've had over the period that I've been riding a lot. Being able to put shims on my cleats or in shoes that I only use while riding means I can treat a problem that arises specifically while riding without affecting the rest of my life.

You're overlooking a pretty important confounding variable, which is that use of foot retention mechanisms is highly correlated with riders who do lots and lots of riding. Chances are pretty good that what causes overuse injuries with an imperfect fit is the lots and lots of riding part, not the foot retention part! Likewise, I disagree with your contention that road bikes are more likely to need fittings to get comfortable than upright bikes, for the same reason. People riding road bikes are more likely to spend thousands of miles a year on them. In my personal experience, if I'm riding more than a handful of miles on an upright bike, fit becomes a serious issue for me. Because I spend so many hours spinning cranks in tiny circles, I'm fairly sensitive to non-optimal fit.

I'm not personally invested one way or another in whether a particular person chooses to use clipless pedals or not. I don't need my bicycle decisions to be validated by the internet. When my commute was about two miles each way, I rode an old hybrid bike with flat pedals most of the time because that made sense to me. My current commute is similar to the OP's, in distance at least. I usually ride my road bike, and sometimes ride my cyclocross bike. These are the bikes I train and race on, so they have clipless pedals anyway, but for that distance I do prefer to be clipped in on a bike that fits perfectly. After all we're talking about 80 miles a week just in commuting, and that's not nothing. I have Speedplay road pedals on my road bike, and SPD mountain pedals on my cyclocross bike. Both are fine, but I would say that the SPDs are definitely easier to clip out of than most road pedals, which need a pretty strong twist of the ankle. The release tension of SPDs is adjustable, too, and I would recommend dialing down the release tension over multi-release cleats, which as [MENTION=3283]caloso[/MENTION] said, have a tendency to release when you don't want them to. With the tension set at minimum, SPDs are already pretty much multi-release, even with the standard single-release cleats. It's very easy to just yank your foot out! So if clipless pedals are of interest, that is what I would recommend.

I commute/recreational riding 25 miles in NYC - lots of red lights and sudden stops. For convenience and my distance, I didn't think clipless would benefit me that much. I just switched to the Wellgo R146, very nice - secure and don't look out of place on a road bike (if that matters to you). I had the Shimano A530 but my foot kept slipping off the platform side or created hot spots. Very happy with the Wellgo pedals.

http://www.jensonusa.com/Wellgo-R146-Pedals

There's no other activity that the human body has evolved with their foot stuck in one position like it is without clipless.

If you've known a large number of people who have tried both, there's a lot more need for adjustment and issue from people wearing clipless.

Some of those would be just as possible to do without clipless.

But like I said, my argument is not that clipless is "useless" or something, it's that it's usually more work to get them working right without issues. I know clipless has been a heck of a lot more work for me. Wearing a cast is useful for certain injuries, but that does not make it better to always wear a cast.

Clipless provides the most secure foot retention - that also lets you get your foot out in an emergency - for high speed spinning. But I think it's also more work to get it working right not causing leg or foot issues (in general).

I'm talking about experience with groups that ride about the same amount often with each other.

I'm not sure what else to add - once conversations get into "no reason to believe" and similar language, it usually just turns into a grudge match that doesn't advance any actual info forward. I don't have widely accepted scientific proof and neither do you, it's been my experience that people riding with flats don't complain or spend nearly as much time trying to fix fit issues. Most people can get clipless to fit ride, it just seems to take more work in my experience.