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Need to swap out Surly LHT for something fun

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Need to swap out Surly LHT for something fun

Old 02-12-16, 08:29 PM
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bigbobo
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Need to swap out Surly LHT for something fun

I've had a 60cm surly LHT for my 2 mile commute for the past 6 years and its a beast but so sluggish and just not fun in stop and go traffic. Any suggestions for being able to buy a new, peppier frame and just swap all the parts over? I do use it for touring very occasionally but i usually go pretty light so it doesn't have to be a full on touring bike.

I'd still like to be able to run up to 38c tires and fenders. Salsa Vaya looks OK but maybe not enough of a geometry difference and I'd have to buy disc brakes. A 2012 salsa casseroll looks perfect too but that will be hard to find used. Surly Crosscheck could be an option but I want like 6mm more bottom bracket drop because i'm not gonna use it off road.
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Old 02-12-16, 08:57 PM
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Soma or veloorange. Both have frames which would fit what you want- a bike capable of light touring and commuting while being more lively and lighter than an LHT.

Soma frames use Tange Prestige tubing.
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Old 02-12-16, 09:21 PM
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Would lighter wheels and tires help a bit with stop and go traffic? Just wondering because something like the LHT is pretty close to what I'd want for my next bike anyway, something close to my old Motobecane frame with better components.
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Old 02-13-16, 11:53 AM
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If you're wedded to steel, or to frames made by QBP, skip this post.

I have a friend with a Salsa Vaya. His only complaint about it is that it's sluggish. In this forum, the only complaint that you'll ever hear about Surly CrossChecks is that they're sluggish. Sticking with the steel QBP bikes seems to mean sticking with sluggish.

If you're more open-minded about frame vendors and material, consider the Ribble Winter/Audax frame, from ribblecycles.co.uk. Comes in sizes from 45 cm to 64 cm. (Their 525 steel version maxes out at 58 cm.)

I've owned mine (58 cm) for three years this month. Since it's used mainly for commuting and is in rotation with two other bikes, I have only 5,200 miles on it, but it's enough to be able to give a decent review.



When you order the frame with a headset and fork, Ribble installs the headset before shipping. (Trans-Atlantic air freight was only $80.) This delays shipment for a few days, but on arrival, all I had to do was cut the steerer, insert the fork, add spacers and stem, then tighten down the top cap.

The frame arrived faced and chased, ready to build, and included the downtube cable stops and seatpost collar. As I recall, it also included the bottle cage bolts and upper rack mount bolts. I say "as I recall" because I always replace these things with stainless anyway. But I seem to remember them plugging the holes in the frame.

I didn't go with the recommended CSN Blackstorm fork with fender eyelets, opting instead for the more expensive and slightly heavier Dedacciai Black Rain fork with fender eyelets. Tying the two together, I bought a Cane Creek headset.

These forks both require long reach 57 mm brakes. I used Shimano BR-R650 brakes moved over from my old frame.

The web copy says, "Will only accept tyres upto [sic] 23mm wide". This is wrong.

I talked to Ribble and they told me this spec is very conservative. How conservative? I run Continental 4000S II tires in 28 mm on this bike, on Velocity's wide A23 hoops. (Back in the day, Conti tires ran small for their stated size. The 4000S II runs big for its size. The photo shows my old tires, 28 mm Conti 4-Seasons.)

Using SKS P-35 Chromoplastic Longboard fenders, I had to make no mods at all in the front. Out back, I use River City Bicycle's Reacharound Fender Brackets. Look closely at the photo above and you'll see them at the rear brake. Works just fine.

The frame's main triangle is a near duplicate of my Litespeed Classic. The headtube is just a bit shorter is all. The rear triangle is 10 mm longer to accommodate light load carrying capability.

The fork's geometry yields a low trail figure, as befits a bike with the word "Audax" in its name. (Here in the US, we use the French words, "brevet" or "randonneur.") At first the low trail felt foreign. I've come to like it, in part because I don't have to worry about changing lanes if I sneeze, and it tracks wonderfully straight all by itself on the cobblestone section of my commute. I've never had this bike over 35 MPH, so I'm not concerned about the trail's effect on high-speed handling.

On the road, the ride comes dangerously close to that of my titanium Litespeed Classic. No doubt part of it is 28mm tires run at sensible pressures versus 25mm tires also run at sensible pressures.

I don't know where people get the idea that aluminum frames ride like agricultural implements. I rode one metric club ride in the rain with this bike over mixed surfaces and I had no complaints about how I felt or how it rode either during or after with ride. It's important to remember that despite the frame material, an audax/brevet/randonneur bike is designed to be ridden for up to 1,200 km (745 miles) at a time. It has to be comfortable for a rider to do that.

As for sluggishness, even in full commuter mode, it adds only 2-3 minutes to my 16.5 mile commute. And that is likely due only to the wind resistance of the panniers, rack and fenders, rather than anything about the frame itself.

The bottom bracket's torsional stiffness is the greatest of all my bikes. When I step into it, the BB doesn't sway in the least, and all my effort is transferred rearward. The bike scoots. The torsional stiffness of the headtube is also noticeably greater than my other bikes. It gives me a confident feel over bumps in corners. Neither of these greater stiffnesses seem to adversely effect the ride.

Because of the fairly short chainstays--for a bike made to haul stuff on the back--when loaded with more than 30 or 35 pounds, the tail begins to wag the dog. But you already have an LHT for carrying heavy loads, so it won't be an issue. I use my Portland for heavier loads.

Hope this helps!

Last edited by tsl; 02-17-16 at 08:19 AM. Reason: typoze
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Old 02-13-16, 12:00 PM
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If you want something peppy to commute on, find a "sports touring" bike or what the British might call an audax bike. Here is a thread on the topic: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...g-bicycle.html

If looking for a new sports touring bike, the Soma Smoothie ES would be on my short list of bikes to consider buying:

ES | SOMA Fabrications
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Old 02-13-16, 12:00 PM
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look at a hybrid such as the Felt qx70 .... a very good commuter, very smooth ride and fast

even a Trek FX hybrid is a good commuter, especially n city traffic

and don't sell your Surly LHT .... if you do, you will regret it in time to come .... (I'm saving up for a good used one)
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Old 02-13-16, 12:27 PM
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How about a Unicycle?
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Old 02-13-16, 12:53 PM
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I want a frame I can buy and just swap everything over. Yes, I want steel.

Soma ES is good but can only accommodate 32c tires with fenders. What Soma is a road sport frame that can run big tires? wolverine looks like it might actually work. Any thoughts there? Commuting here requires a mix of cobblestones (right now I have 42c tires) horribly potholed streets, curb hopping, and some gravel every once in a while.

The 2012 Salsa Casseroll looks like exactly what I wanted. Road sport geo (73/73 ht/st) that fits 38c tire with fenders and built for the canti brakes I already have. BUT they only have the wide tire clearance that year (and stopped making them afterwards) and i need a 60cm which is a harder to find frame size. If there is any bike with these specs out there please let me know. I like the handlebar bag style too. I go light so I could do my touring with 2 rear panniers and a handlebar bag easily.

2012 Casseroll | Bikes | Salsa Cycles
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Old 02-13-16, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbobo View Post
I've had a 60cm surly LHT for my 2 mile commute for the past 6 years and its a beast but so sluggish and just not fun in stop and go traffic. Any suggestions for being able to buy a new, peppier frame and just swap all the parts over? I do use it for touring very occasionally but i usually go pretty light so it doesn't have to be a full on touring bike.

I'd still like to be able to run up to 38c tires and fenders. Salsa Vaya looks OK but maybe not enough of a geometry difference and I'd have to buy disc brakes. A 2012 salsa casseroll looks perfect too but that will be hard to find used. Surly Crosscheck could be an option but I want like 6mm more bottom bracket drop because i'm not gonna use it off road.
My suggestion for a 2 mile commute is use what you have, which is already more than you really need. You can make the bike faster by reducing some weight, such as leaving stuff at work, and by building up strength. Think of it as resistance training.
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Old 02-13-16, 04:24 PM
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I overlooked the part about it being a two-mile commute. I can't even get warmed up in that distance. Takes me five miles just to get my legs and lungs feeling alive. I wouldn't be able to feel the difference between a carbon frame Cervelo and 50 lb beach bomber in two miles.

I'd get a $200 comfy hybrid that's not worth stealing for short commutes, and save the LHT for long weekend and holiday rides.
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Old 02-13-16, 04:49 PM
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Honestly, I think the components are part of the reason the LHT feels sluggish. If you move a bunch of touring components onto a steel frame, it's going to feel an awful lot like a touring bike. There are some steel frames that are not as overbuilt as the LHT which would provide a little more lively feel, though most of them won't accept tires as wide as you want.

I think you should consider a complete bike. At the very least, if you want something with a livelier feel you should look at new wheels and tires.
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Old 02-13-16, 05:36 PM
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Fair enough Andy K. I'm mostly OK with heavy components, I just want more aggressive frame geometry.

And also to be clear, I'm not looking to 'go faster'. I can go fast now. Being fit and having fun with it is precisely the problem, I wanna have more fun sprinting during my city commute with lots of hills, fast corners, stop and starts (over cobblestones, curbs, etc.) and I need a bike with shorter chainstays (still long enough so my feet don't hit the panniers) so I can accelerate faster. Weight, i don't really care because I have a pannier with my lunch stuff, clothes, etc.

I also often ride a 12 mile loop during my lunch break and want to have more fun doing that. And sometimes I take a long way home that is 10 to 15 miles so there's that. I ride to meetings, events etc. cross town too in all weather as well.
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Old 02-13-16, 06:56 PM
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Just buy a road bike and carry your stuff in a backpack. 2 miles? no big deal. You'll be fine even on a 15 mile commute. I just put some SKS long race blade fenders on my road bike for the rest of the wet season. They should come off easily for riding in the summer.
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Old 02-15-16, 12:54 PM
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Surly Crosscheck. By definition, 'peppier than LHT'. If you want disc, then Straggler.

But for 2mi commute? Even LHT is overkill, and how can you get a peppy ride out of anything in just 2mi with stops?
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Old 02-15-16, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbobo View Post
And also to be clear, I'm not looking to 'go faster'. I can go fast now. Being fit and having fun with it is precisely the problem, I wanna have more fun sprinting during my city commute with lots of hills, fast corners, stop and starts (over cobblestones, curbs, etc.) and I need a bike with shorter chainstays (still long enough so my feet don't hit the panniers) so I can accelerate faster. Weight, i don't really care because I have a pannier with my lunch stuff, clothes, etc.

I also often ride a 12 mile loop during my lunch break and want to have more fun doing that. And sometimes I take a long way home that is 10 to 15 miles so there's that. I ride to meetings, events etc. cross town too in all weather as well.
That makes sense. Fun is good. Almost sounds like a messenger bike would be ideal. But I'm not sure there's any consensus on what makes an ideal messenger bike -- I sure wouldn't want a fixie or single gear with freehub. But quick and nimble while also being good for 10-15 mile rides and carrying some stuff, sounds like the ideal commuter bike.
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Old 02-15-16, 06:56 PM
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Suggest looking at a Pacer ?
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Old 02-16-16, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by tsl View Post
That thing looks very interesting, and the frame price seems really affordable. Have you posted a complete component build list and price (if you don't mind my asking)?
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Old 02-17-16, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Have you posted a complete component build list and price (if you don't mind my asking)?
No, and sorry, but one won't be forthcoming.
  • Most new items were purchased overseas, so currency fluctuations makes one meaningless in time,
  • It was built with a combination of new, swapped, and new-to-me parts,
  • My choices in parts won't be the same as yours,
  • They don't make 105 triples any more, and,
  • I just don't care. Things cost what they cost. All that money is gone so it doesn't matter how much it was anyway.
I can tell you that the wheels were $700. I had them built at the LBS across the street. When building wheels, they say you can choose two from the list of light, strong, and cheap. I chose light and strong. (Light being relative given the dynamo hub.)
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Old 02-17-16, 08:40 AM
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2 miles? Steel frame, beefy wheels and tires? Looked at any of the "gravel grinders" that are popular these days. Specialized awol? Check out some from Jamis or Kona? I love my cross check for pave too.
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Old 02-17-16, 11:22 AM
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I know the desire to shake up the commute. For a two miler and money already invested in a LHT I might recommend going in a different direction, a simple single speed. I like a 29er cruiser with coaster brake, but for the same money there are a bunch of different options for a single speed. Simple to maintain, easy to reinvent, good back up in the winter if you need s snow bike.

If I had to to thin my bike collection from 6 down to to just two it would be the Salsa Fargo and a 2013 felt 29" I have built as a klunker right now.
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Old 02-17-16, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tsl View Post
No, and sorry, but one won't be forthcoming...
No problem, just curious, and pondering the notion of buying readymade vs building up something from a very reasonably priced frame like the Ribble. I don't recall seeing an aluminum frame quite like that in a readymade for anywhere near my budget.
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Old 02-17-16, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I overlooked the part about it being a two-mile commute. I can't even get warmed up in that distance. Takes me five miles just to get my legs and lungs feeling alive. I wouldn't be able to feel the difference between a carbon frame Cervelo and 50 lb beach bomber in two miles.

I'd get a $200 comfy hybrid that's not worth stealing for short commutes, and save the LHT for long weekend and holiday rides.

Thinking similarly, for 2 miles, my fatbike can be right spritely with well timed shifts.

Granted, I am warm while waiting behind a car. But when the light turns....
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Old 02-18-16, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
That thing looks very interesting, and the frame price seems really affordable. Have you posted a complete component build list and price (if you don't mind my asking)?
If you want to look at that kind of thing, I posted about my buildup of my crosscheck. Different frame, but I guess parts list could be comparable...
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Old 02-18-16, 01:40 AM
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Thanks, looks good.
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Old 02-18-16, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
No problem, just curious, and pondering the notion of buying readymade vs building up something from a very reasonably priced frame like the Ribble. I don't recall seeing an aluminum frame quite like that in a readymade for anywhere near my budget.
OIC.

If it's readymade you're thinking of, the Winter/Audax is one of the frames available in Ribble's Bikebuilder program. Within a handful of choices for each component, you can customize the build up or down to suit. They do the build, then ship it to you. (I believe the same $80 shipping applies as the bare frame.)

There's a "special edition" in 5800-series 105. It starts at $778.09 plus pedals (as of today, remember currency fluctuations).

In Sora, it starts at $651.76.
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