Originally Posted by RubeRad (Post 18727697)

Thanks for the interesting report

Do you recall what you saw in the way of bare chains vs partial or full chaincases (I guess vs belt drive)? In your pics I see 3 or 4 chaincases.

Originally Posted by San Pedro (Post 18727930)

In America there aren't many people using bikes to commute, or those who do are going further, so it seems like there are more people out in spandex.

Originally Posted by RubeRad (Post 18727697)

Thanks for the interesting report

Do you recall what you saw in the way of bare chains vs partial or full chaincases (I guess vs belt drive)? In your pics I see 3 or 4 chaincases.

Originally Posted by Darth Lefty (Post 18728231)

Today, right now, I'm having brunch in Davis. I've watched as bikes of every major category, price level, and vintage have gone past... And one ElliptiGo. Germany sounds dull!

Originally Posted by RubeRad (Post 18727697)

Thanks for the interesting report

Do you recall what you saw in the way of bare chains vs partial or full chaincases (I guess vs belt drive)? In your pics I see 3 or 4 chaincases.

Originally Posted by AngeloDolce (Post 18728392)

I wouldn't expect daily commuters in Europe or Japan to use belt drive - there are lots of cheap reliable bicycles with chains available used and new that can't accept belt drive, so they would have to actively look for an unusual bicycle that would be harder to have serviced.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 18728352)

College Campus and specifically Davis; so typical of bike commuting locales in the U.S. eh?

Originally Posted by pdlamb (Post 18728418)

I'd almost like to see the burgomeisters ride 10 miles to work in their nice wool suits around here. Almost, because I'd really rather not walk by them in the office afterwards (sweaty wool smell!) or watch the medics try to cool them down.

Originally Posted by Darth Lefty (Post 18728982)

I didn't say so. I said German cycling sounds dull by comparison. However I invite you to try to define a typical bike commuting locale in the U.S.Eh? and then not be confronted with a thousand counterexamples either better or worse. We were recently talking in another thread about bikes in Camden, Arkansas...

Originally Posted by CrankyOne (Post 18728968)

OP, great report. This isn't just Germany but just about everywhere outside of the US. Transport for London did a fairly extensive study of cycling across a number of countries and noted that nearly every country was completely lacking in MAMILs except the US and Australia (and noted that these also have the lowest bicycling rates by a significant margin).

For their part the UK are somewhere between the US and Europe in terms of MAMILs and similar elements though they are quickly moving much closer to Europe with more protected bikeways and more people riding normal upright Dutch bikes in normal clothes. The new north-south cycle superhighway is mostly complete. I rode by it a few months ago while they were building it. Looking forward to riding it in a few weeks when.

In terms of ridership Germany is probably about third (in Europe) behind the first place Netherlands and perennial second place Danes. Finland, Sweden, and Spain are catching up rather quickly though.

Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18729062)

Good info, thanks. Just to be clear, I am not anti-MAMIL. I only made note of the fact that I saw none. MAMILs mostly ride for fun, fitness and sport and tend to ride expensive hardware and these folks I observed were riding for transportation and their attire is chosen accordingly. I am sure, as I have said, that there are sporting cyclists in Germany, I just did not see any at all and found the contrast to be interesting to home.

Originally Posted by CrankyOne (Post 18729173)

Per capita and per square mile there are likely many more racers (road, mtn, and x) in Germany than in the US. As mentioned above they're not as noticeable because of the number of other people riding bicycles.

I'm not anti-MAMIL but I am anti MAMIL culture. 'Cyclists' have become quite hated across the US. And often for good reason. People have learned that someone wearing lycra is very likely to be a jerk. Not always, but often. They are likely to run red lights — when others have right-of-way. They 'take the lane' and block traffic when it's not necessary. They filter to the front of drivers at red lights and stop signs so the drivers have to pass them yet again. Most of the time there is fairly decent cooperation between drivers and people riding bicycles in Europe that you don't see in the US.

Originally Posted by TenSpeedV2 (Post 18729643)

This knitpicking over what people are wearing when they ride is just ridiculous. I wear what is comfortable on the bike, and cycling specific clothes are comfortable to me on the bike. You want to wear jeans or chinos or whatever, go ahead. There is already enough snobbery within the hobby, this just adds to it.

Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18725981)

Spent the last two weeks in Germany and thereabout. Visited several cities and made some observations.

Bicycles are everywhere. Bicycle racks everywhere. Lots of dedicated bike paths and bike lanes. Everybody it seems walks or rides a bike to get to work at least in part or to shop or just simply to move from place A to place B to place C. But that is where the similarity to cycling in North America ends.

There were absolutely no sport bikes, that being racing bikes, hybrids or MTB/ATB. Every bicycle had lights powered by either a generator or a battery pack. Every bike had fenders. Every bike had a rack or racks and a basket.

Nobody wore a helmet. Nobody wore cycling specific clothing. Instead they cycled in their working cloths be that a suit and tie or coveralls or business casual or casual. There was no lycra. I saw no MAMILS and in fact saw no sporting cyclist or anybody in team "kit" type clothing. They wore no special shoes and I saw no clip-in shoes or cages on the pedals. All bikes were 30mm tires or larger on 700c wheels.

Bikes, well, they were either heavy aluminum double down tube step through frames or a variety of mixte like designs. Most were ridden hard and while it appeared some were taken care of it was clear that cycling there was strictly transportation and not a sport or a hobby/love. I did see some older English "racer" types, IGH diamond frame bikes, not common but not unusual.

So, since I saw no sport cycling, well, in the bike "shops" what was in there? Well, commuter type bikes already rigged out with lights and racks just as I had seen all over the streets. I saw no sporting bicycles at all in any of the three shops I visited. The entire inventory was commuter/transportation cycling oriented.

Okay, so the people. I saw all ages, all types from kids to old women. I saw very, very few helmets. Hardly any at all. I did see a lot of people smoking while cycling. I saw a lot of people walk/push the bikes up hill and coast down, especially the older women when the bikes were laden with shopping items.

Clothing, again, no cycling clothing. I did see some women wearing leggings and skirts. I did see guys wearing some sort of trouser like legging as well but they were NOT, WERE NOT, cycling cloths and there were people wearing those with or without a bicycle. European men in particular, of all ages, contrary to their North American brethren, wear much tighter fitting clothing. The clothing is tailored if it is a suit and the jeans, when there are jeans, are skinny or very slim cut. Shirts are slim cut and ties are everywhere as are suits which are also cut slim to hug the body. And they are riding bicycles in that attire. No spandex.

Okay, so did I see any messenger bags? Nope. Either the things being carried like a brief case go on the rear rack or basket or the items purchased in basket. I saw few real panniers and I saw no messenger bags. But I did see a lot of men, mostly younger men and women too, using a back pack.

There is no pretense that the cycling I saw was for fitness or fun or recreation. These people use the bicycle as a transportation tool.

And I am serious, every bicycle I saw was fitted with fenders and lights and a sounding device and racks and baskets.

I saw no CF bikes at all.

This is what I saw in four German states in five major German cities and several smaller cities and two Dutch cities.

And, while on the subject, I saw much fewer obese people than in North America. However, I would not say the fitness level was any better, just not as fat. Just because one is skinny does not mean they are physically fit as they cycled by smoking a cigarette. It is not about fitness, it is about getting from here to there.

J

Originally Posted by wolfchild (Post 18726342)

It's not just in Europe that cyclists dress normal...It's the same here in my area. Majority of transportational commuter cyclists wear normal clothes and use hybrids or mountain bikes, I also regularly see bikes with fenders and racks...Only weekend warriors wear spandex costumes and ride race bikes....I've been a cyclists for 9 years now, riding all year round from the hottest to the coldest, I've ridded many thousands of miles in the last couple of years and I don't even own any cycling specific costumes and none of my bikes have clipless pedals.

Originally Posted by Loose Chain (Post 18729681)

You are the one quibbling. I reported exactly what I saw and the choice of bicycles and equipment and lack of helmets and cycling specific attire was striking, not to mention the smoking while cycling and walking. It is what it is and that was all it was meant to be, a report of what I saw, and at that a report of one person on one visit. Though I have been to Europe before a number of times but did not pay attention to cycling so much, however, nothing I saw in those visits was any different. It is not about good or bad or right or wrong, it is what I saw.

Originally Posted by Walter S (Post 18729745)

Good for you. I have a 40 mile RT commute in a hilly area with hot summers. In July I'm not just damp with sweat when I get to work. I'm soaked and dripping. If I hang up my jersey without wringing it out, it will make a puddle on the floor.

I prefer riding in "costume".

Originally Posted by TenSpeedV2 (Post 18729880)

You didn't know? You are supposed to wear normal clothes and ride a heavy upright dutch style bike. I do a 17 mile RT in an extremely flat area with hot summers. In July I'm not just damp with sweat when I get to work either, I am soaking wet. Very little of my commute is in the shade which makes for one hell of a ride. From the sounds of several people on this forum, if you are not in normal clothes with a heavy upright dutch bike, you are simply doing it wrong. To that I would like to extend an open invitation to anyone who would like to ride my route with me in the middle of the summer on that bike in those clothes.