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Old Fashion Pedal Power -- No More

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Old Fashion Pedal Power -- No More

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Old 03-08-18, 08:16 AM
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work4bike
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Old Fashion Pedal Power -- No More

Seems like E-bikes are becoming more and more prevalent I guess being an old dog I just hate to see cycling take this route, but I guess that progress

I've noticed a lot more of these "bikes" around here where I live and it seems there's at least one in all my LBS's in the area. And I see they are also becoming very popular in Europe, this latest article mentions them a lot to provide an incentive for people to ride "bikes" in Paris; I guess they know people won't be adequately incentivized with real bikes.


This latest incentive is to reduce cars in Paris, but all over Europe countries have been doing the same thing, but it's all centered around E-bikes.

I'm feeling old

https://www.bicycling.com/culture/pa...e3195e9e5e3ecd

Now, France’s capital city is taking things a step further. Cycling Industry News reported on Wednesday that Paris will begin to offer hefty tax incentives for residents who buy e-bikes and cargo bikes, or who otherwise ditch their cars in favor of cycling and other forms of transportation.
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Old 03-08-18, 08:30 AM
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I think it's a good idea. Our government gives incentives for people who buy hybrid and electric vehicles. Maybe they'll have enough sense to expand that to e-bikes too.
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Old 03-08-18, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
Seems like E-bikes are becoming more and more prevalent I guess being an old dog I just hate to see cycling take this route, but I guess that progress

I've noticed a lot more of these "bikes" around here where I live and it seems there's at least one in all my LBS's in the area. And I see they are also becoming very popular in Europe, this latest article mentions them a lot to provide an incentive for people to ride "bikes" in Paris; I guess they know people won't be adequately incentivized with real bikes.


This latest incentive is to reduce cars in Paris, but all over Europe countries have been doing the same thing, but it's all centered around E-bikes.

I'm feeling old

https://www.bicycling.com/culture/pa...e3195e9e5e3ecd
This is a big deal in certain parts of Germany, especially the Rhein Main Valley.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhein-Main-Gebiet

Cycleways already existed in the area like these:





But now they are building ebike cycle superhighways and this has really driven up the price of the whole valley (2 bed flats are now €600-900K. ugh

Basically, I heard that quite a few people are OK with between 25 and 40km commutes each way by ebike. And the highways are maintained year round.

Sounds quite OK.

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Old 03-08-18, 10:58 AM
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I don't want an ebike. But I'm fine with others riding them, especially if it gets them out of cars. Maybe I'll want one, one day. The notion that it's cheating is just silly.
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Old 03-08-18, 11:39 AM
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Agreed. My biggest concern is safety on the MUP. My observation has been that ebike commuters may not have the bike handling skills to match the speed that their motors give them. But as long as you know how to handle your bike, enjoy.
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Old 03-08-18, 11:56 AM
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+1 I don't see a lot of e-bikes in my area yet, I'll take them over cars.

My fitness is always best when I'm trying to keep up with the fast people, so I would actually welcome more bikes going 20 MPH in my same general direction.
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Old 03-08-18, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
Agreed. My biggest concern is safety on the MUP. My observation has been that ebike commuters may not have the bike handling skills to match the speed that their motors give them.
I know people that pedal that are not capable of handling the speeds they can achieve
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Old 03-08-18, 12:10 PM
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I really wasn't interested when my ride was 12 miles one way, but I'm starting to become interested now that it's 25 miles one way. I'm probably going to have to pony up for a proper conversion soon, as I just can't ride that many days a week with pedal power at these distances.
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Old 03-08-18, 12:13 PM
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My mom lives in Germany and at almost 73 years old she runs all her errands by bike. She has a car but doesn't really like to use it since my dad passed away almost 4 years ago.
About 5 years ago she switched to an electric assist bike and she loves it. And so have many more folks her age and even younger. In central Europe for many people a bicycle is a utility vehicle. We don't have that much parking space for cars in Europe. Some shops may even have no parking at all. So walking or cycling is sometimes the only option to get the groceries. And these electric assist bikes have it made possible to keep the older and weaker folks on a bike. Hills and overpasses are no longer obstacles but can be mastered with ease now.
I am not there yet either that I want one but every cyclist is a car less on the road. No matter if is an old school pedal bike and electric assist bike.
And by the way: In Europe these electric assist bikes are limited to 25 km/h (15.6 mph). Officially the motor will not go faster.

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Old 03-08-18, 12:23 PM
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Like others here, I suspect that I might someday want/need an electric-assist bike if I want to keep on riding to work and taking long overnight bike trips. However, my fear is that they will overtake pedal-powered bikes on the MUP's and Rail Trails I sometimes like to ride, and that e-bikers will develop an overblown sense of entitlement the way drivers did when automobiles started to displace horses.
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Old 03-08-18, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
This is a big deal in certain parts of Germany, especially the Rhein Main Valley.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhein-Main-Gebiet

Cycleways already existed in the area like these:





But now they are building ebike cycle superhighways and this has really driven up the price of the whole valley (2 bed flats are now €600-900K. ugh

Basically, I heard that quite a few people are OK with between 25 and 40km commutes each way by ebike. And the highways are maintained year round.

Sounds quite OK.
I grew up in the southern part of the Rhein Main area and it is a mecca for cyclists. Because it is mostly flat along the rivers Rhine, Main or Neckar there are an abundance of dedicated and well maintained bicycle trails. In total probably a few 1000 miles.
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Old 03-08-18, 12:36 PM
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They’re good for old people and lazy people. 90% of the population, probably.
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Old 03-08-18, 12:38 PM
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The E-bike is just a newer, cleaner, more economical moped. Being both a cyclist and motorcycle rider, I welcome any new tech that gets more people on two wheels.
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Old 03-08-18, 01:05 PM
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For those that commute on regular streets they're potentially pretty neat. Especially if it is both warm and hilly.

I like bike commuting, but if an affordable drop-bar ebike was available I'd probably ride it to commute.

Unlike my motorbike, I could park an ebike in my office.
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Old 03-08-18, 01:10 PM
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To paraphrase Mencken, no one ever went broke overestimating the laziness of the American public.
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Old 03-08-18, 01:29 PM
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There are 2 dealerships in Folsom. One is a new front of Practical Cycle, a midtown business that had formerly styled itself a cargo and family bike seller. It makes plenty of sense when you are talking about 100+ lb of kids and milk jugs and dog food and kitty litter. But I couldn’t tell you how well their sales are going. I haven’t spied any parked in front of the Wal-Mart.
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Old 03-08-18, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
To paraphrase Mencken, no one ever went broke overestimating the laziness of the American public.
Yeah, they should just drive instead.
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Old 03-08-18, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Harhir View Post
I grew up in the southern part of the Rhein Main area and it is a mecca for cyclists. Because it is mostly flat along the rivers Rhine, Main or Neckar there are an abundance of dedicated and well maintained bicycle trails. In total probably a few 1000 miles.
Yeah. I mis living there. Cycling and having a schnitzel. Good times.

I like living by the sea now.
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Old 03-08-18, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
The E-bike is just a newer, cleaner, more economical moped.
Exactly. This bad boy has been around for a long time now, and it has pedals. As for the e-bikes being cleaner and more economical, that depends on how the electricity is generated. Those little mopeds are getting over 125mpg, which is tough to compete with.




I don't mind the e-bikes, but if you want to ride on a path you should have a very low speed limit (10mph). Otherwise you should ride on the street, in traffic, like proper scooters and motorcycles do.

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Old 03-08-18, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post

I don't mink the e-bikes, but if you want to ride on a path you should have a very low speed limit (10mph). Otherwise you should ride on the street, in traffic, like proper scooters and motorcycles do.

Yep, but even human powered bikes should avoid the path if 10-15mph is too slow.
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Old 03-08-18, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Harhir View Post
My mom lives in Germany and at almost 73 years old she runs all her errands by bike. She has a car but doesn't really like to use it since my dad passed away almost 4 years ago.
About 5 years ago she switched to an electric assist bike and she loves it. And so have many more folks her age and even younger. In central Europe for many people a bicycle is a utility vehicle. We don't have that much parking space for cars in Europe. Some shops may even have no parking at all. So walking or cycling is sometimes the only option to get the groceries. And these electric assist bikes have it made possible to keep the older and weaker folks on a bike. Hills and overpasses are no longer obstacles but can be mastered with ease now.
I am not there yet either that I want one but every cyclist is a car less on the road. No matter if is an old school pedal bike and electric assist bike.
And by the way: In Europe these electric assist bikes are limited to 25 km/h (15.6 mph). Officially the motor will not go faster.
The "problem" here, IMO is that you can't really compare the EU Legal E-Bike rules to the N. American Legal E-Bike rules... 350 watts cuts out at 20MPH no throttle allowed and must be pedalled to go anywhere for the EU Legal E-Bike, or 750 watts and cuts out at 28MPH and has a throttle and no pedal effort is actually required to make the bike move for the N. American Legal E-Bike...


Originally Posted by Papa Tom View Post
Like others here, I suspect that I might someday want/need an electric-assist bike if I want to keep on riding to work and taking long overnight bike trips. However, my fear is that they will overtake pedal-powered bikes on the MUP's and Rail Trails I sometimes like to ride, and that e-bikers will develop an overblown sense of entitlement the way drivers did when automobiles started to displace horses.
and that is exactly what will happen IMO.

Originally Posted by alan s View Post
They’re good for old people and lazy people. 90% of the population, probably.
You Sir, are just prejudiced...

Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
The E-bike is just a newer, cleaner, more economical moped. Being both a cyclist and motorcycle rider, I welcome any new tech that gets more people on two wheels.
I agree... With the N. American RULES THAT IS AXACTLY WHAT IT IS. but, not with the EU RULES for E-Bikes... JMO
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Old 03-08-18, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Exactly. This bad boy has been around for a long time now, and it has pedals. As for the e-bikes being cleaner and more economical, that depends on how the electricity is generated. Those little mopeds are getting over 125mpg, which is tough to compete with.



I don't mind the e-bikes, but if you want to ride on a path you should have a very low speed limit (10mph). Otherwise you should ride on the street, in traffic, like proper scooters and motorcycles do.
Those used to be all over Italy... at least they were really popular with the kids in Parma.

The problem with E-Bikes is that 20 MPH is too slow to ride in traffic when there are alternatives, so the best/safest place for them is on the bike paths and bike lanes. That may change if speeds are increased to 30 or 40 MPH (which is probably too fast for the E-Bikes). Perhaps we'll see a split between slow speed E-Bikes and high speed E-Motorcycles.

One thing the the Italians did was increase the driving age. I don't remember exactly what it was, but perhaps between 14 and 17 or so, one could get a moped license, but not an automobile license.

If the USA did something similar with E-Bikes, it is possible we'd see more teenagers on E-Bikes, and perhaps it would hold through until later adult years. Or, it could massively backfire, and regular pedal bicycles would get shunned by the i-Bike generation.
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Old 03-08-18, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Exactly. This bad boy has been around for a long time now, and it has pedals. As for the e-bikes being cleaner and more economical, that depends on how the electricity is generated. Those little mopeds are getting over 125mpg, which is tough to compete with.
An e-bike going ~20mph, can usually break 500mpg equivalent energy usage. Even if you get the electricity from a coal plant, that coal plant (due to economies of scale) is still far more thermodynamically efficient than a 30 or 40 year old moped engine.
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Old 03-08-18, 10:41 PM
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...and it's going to be pretty hard for anything to compete with a 2-stroke for nasty exhaust!
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Old 03-09-18, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
As for the e-bikes being cleaner and more economical, that depends on how the electricity is generated.
It’s likely an e-bike is cleaner than a human powered bike. Humans are not very efficient and generate significant CO2 when riding.
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