Colnago Mixte

Show up on the bike path riding this. That wheelsucker won't dare draft again!

Brocephus

OK, now that ^ cracked me up !!!!!

Gconan

I once had a couple fall in behind me. I was going 18-19 mph and was not used to that speed. When I had to slow down they passed but thanked me for the pull, said I did a good job. I would gladly pull for them anytime for a little while. No harm no foul.

DrIsotope

I had a pair of randoms hop on my wheel on the river trail a little while back, and hold on for about 5 miles. The "lead" guy finally pulled up beside me and said, "I'd offer to give you a break, but I don't think you can ride that slow." I was doing a fairly typical 21-22mph... on the CX bike.

I looked them up on Strava Fly-Bys when I got home-- an out-and-back run on the river trail, about 30 miles @ 15.8mph. Sometimes people are just happy to get out of the wind. Didn't slow me down any, so I didn't mind.

Colnago Mixte

Did they call you the next morning and make sure there were no hard feelings?

noisebeam

In theory a close draft should speed you up a tiny bit for same effort.

Carbonfiberboy 

There have been so many of these threads on BF, it's boring. I fail to understand any of this. Sometimes I come up on someone and take a little break on their wheel, then go by. Sometimes others do that with me. Sometimes riders sit on my wheel for miles. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. They're no danger, no threat, no matter what they do. I just hold my line and a steady effort, like I always do. Weird how some riders get upset about other riders for no apparent reason. Tolerance is a virtue. Just ride your frigging bike in a responsible manner and everything will be fine.

They're not after your bodily fluids, honest, but they do get a bit of a free lunch off your effort. Is that it? Just the desire to not have anyone else benefit from your labor? Society doesn't work like that, really it doesn't. Others always benefit from our labor. It's a good thing. I used to be pretty good on the flat when I was feeling it and have had the pleasure of, with the help of a few others, occasionally pulling long lines of riders on event rides.

The great thing about being in front is that no one else's error is going to take you down. It'll be your own error. So like if you suddenly brake hard and the next rider back hits you, yup that's your error. You're supposed to ride smoothly, hold your line, and look far ahead for danger, slowing down as necessary. I always shout "Slowing" even if no one is on my wheel. It's never the rider behind who causes the accident. Go on some group rides, get used to having riders around you. You'll figure it out. Take responsibility for your actions. But "What if I don't want to take responsibility for my actions?" Well then, there it is, as we used to day back in the day.

Colnago Mixte

I have thought a little bit about these threads and it seems as if it's an urban vs. rural divide at work here. I ride on city streets with few to no other cyclists, and when I'm up in the local hills, I see at least someone else on a bicycle maybe 20% of the time, and I'll be out for several hours.

Everyone has been high up in the mountains where there's no one for miles, people become a lot more relaxed and comfortable, and if you pass someone on a trail going the other directions, you almost have to say something, it's extremely awkward not to.

Compared with typical weekend rides or commuting in a dense urban area, hundreds of other people out on bikes on the choicer routes, doing the sames friggin thing you are, getting in your way, doing REALLY annoying stuff like drafting off you, etc. I think it's a function of your proximity to other people on bikes which determines how patient with them you are. Hell is other people, doubly so if they're on bikes and there's hundreds of them out.

surak

Congrats on the worst reasoning I've read on BF in quite a while, and that's saying something. Because anytime someone goes out for a ride, they're expected to be part of a group ride? F that. There's a reason in automobile accidents, the vast majority of time it's the car behind at fault. Just because the vehicle is two-wheeled doesn't suddenly invert the responsibility of some ninja pathlete riding too close being absolved of any responsibility. We call it wheelsucking in cycling because there's the benefit the moocher gets off the one in front, but even without the draft benefit it's still tailgating, and still obnoxious. It's funny how twisted the logic gets for people to rationalize behavior that know they know is tactless.

Carbonfiberboy 

So you're the sort that hates it when anyone else benefits from your labor. Got it.

I never said that the rider behind is "absolved of all responsibility." Don't put words in my mouth! Automobiles are not bicycles. Drafting is one of the most fun things about cycling. Without drafting, it wouldn't be the sport it is. Any time you're out on your bike and there are other bikes going in the same direction, you're a part of a group ride and need to obey the rules. Bicycles don't have brake lights and fall over much more easily than automobiles. To make up for that, we signal to those behind us: slowing, standing, tracks, hole, gravel, etc. Failing to be courteous to those behind you is what's obnoxious. It doesn't matter whether someone is on your wheel or has just overtaken you, the need to be courteous is the same. I always assume someone is on my wheel and act accordingly, thus it never occurs to me to turn around and look since it makes no difference to my ride either way.

In all my 63 years of cycling and the many thousands of miles, I've never had anyone be so discourteous as to turn around and tell me to get off their wheel. It seems these people only exist on BF and don't actually ride their bikes or least not often enough to be encountered, which is all to the good.

I've always regarded it as an honor to be a sought-after wheel. I encourage slightly slower riders to jump on if it's appropriate. Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't. I've never caused a rider behind me to fall. I try to drive my car the same way.

surak

That's that twisted logic again. I don't step out of my house and suddenly have to be responsible for whoever comes up behind me. There's nowhere in the world where that is part of the social contract. If it were, then maybe people wouldn't be making .

Oh, the irony of your words given your first sentence. Got it.

A bicycle is a vehicle. Some people bike as a sport. Others commute. Gee, which forum and what context are the complaints about wheelsuckers in this thread about? Again, your logic somehow makes bikes into some exceptional thing with a single purpose in use. It's a vehicle that gets people from one place to another, everything else is dependent on the rider's goals. I wonder if car forums have nonsense posts about how drafting is one of the most fun things about auto racing, in response to people complaining about tailgaters.

You mean the "rules" that you've invented, found here.

Which is why it's stupid to sneak up behind a stranger on a bike.

Again, why should anyone need to do this when someone sneaks dangerously close to their blind spot?

Funny how you focus so much on courtesy, but not a word about how a wheelsucker is supposed to be courteous. It's a lot more work to check behind, alert, and pull than it is to say even a single word to let someone know you're on their wheel, except wheelsuckers can't even be bothered to do even that.

Yeah, I'm sure your anecdotal evidence outweighs the many repeatedly complaints about this topic on BF, which you're supposedly tired of reading, and the sum of all the mileage must be dwarfed by your single person's experience.

The rest of us don't think that you wanting to play hero gives everyone else carte blanche to invade and disrupt our rides.

base2 

Dropping back after a mile or two and telling them it's their turn is, for the most part, pretty effective. More than once I've been surprised by the results.

As for me, anymore, if it's in my judgement the guy is "D" or otherwise unworthy, I'll hold 25+ mph until they drop-off. Yeah, it's hard. 5 minutes of 90% heart rate usually drops even the most ardent Saturday morning MUP Time trialist warrior wanna-be with aerobars. It's kind of funny, really. Cheating effort never made anyone stronger.

Sure beats what I used to do, though. I used to run tight up on a pedestrian, dog walker, pothole, bollard, whatever, and slolom right around the obsticle at the last instant leaving the suck with all the consequences of failing situational awareness.

I don't do that anymore. I've mended my ways. And I don't need to hear about what a "D" move it is. I know. That's why I quit.

u235

They seem to be doing it fine.

Colnago Mixte

mcours2006

Pull over and let him through. Don't need to say anything. Tells him that you don't like what he's doing without saying a word.

Carbonfiberboy 

<snip>Uh, yes it is, in most places in the world where masses of people commute by bike. This comes up here only because in the US, bike commuting is so rare that you are actually complaining because other riders are using your commute route! It's ridiculous.

My complaint about this silly discussion is especially relevant in the Commute forum because this is where you're going to be riding with other people. Sports riders go out on training rides mostly alone, but commuters are seldom alone. Auto commuters don't draft because it's not worth it. With unlimited horsepower there's no advantage. And folks like GNC make videos like that because they live on clicks and they know that wheelsucker threads are only second in popularity to "How much faster will these new tires make me?" threads.
<snip>
Uh, bikes are naturally silent. We should put playing cards in our spokes?

"Sneaks"? Really? See above.

If I'm going to stay for a while, I announce, "Wheel!" If I'm going to go around soon, I don't say anything. Either way it should make no difference to the bike in front because they are already riding like there was someone on their wheel, like they are supposed to. That's the safe way to ride. There's no need to check behind. What happens behind you is the responsibility of those behind you. Your responsibility is to not do anything that they can't deal with, like make a sudden U-turn for instance. If you are looking for the absolute right to do anything you want, move to Somalia.

You know, it just might be. You are very vocal, but such a tiny minority that, like I said, I've never ridden near the type. I think my attitude is typical of experienced cyclists, whose main objective is to complete the ride uninjured. I focus my attention way up the road. What drives me nuts is dogs on spool leashes and people who stop to talk and take up the whole path. Also people who wear earbuds or are on their phones, both cyclists and runners/walkers, and are thus oblivious to their surroundings.

"The rest of us"? LOL. If you think everyone else on the road or path with you is either invading or disrupting, get some help. Far from being "the rest of us," you're a minority on this thread.

I brought up my cycling experience just to say, "If you ride long enough, you'll wind up riding just the way I'm describing." Doesn't matter where you started, over time we all wind up riding alike simply because it's safer. It's called socialization. Another of my sayings is, "We are all condemned to repeat the lives of our parents."

wolfchild

Those aren't wheel suckers, they are commuters riding at low speed within close proximity to each other. Nobody in this pic deliberately wheel sucks to improve their performance...What OP described is completely different.

TiHabanero

Many years ago an older gent was riding along the same road I was. Very peaceful, quiet ride for about 4 miles. I passed him going at a leisurely rate as I was on my way to work. He quickly jumped on my wheel and after a minute starts flapping his jaws at me. I said nothing and kept on rolling along. After a while he pulls up along side and chews me out for being anti-social. I looked at him and put the hammer down to get rid him. If he had just stayed on my wheel and shut his mouth all would have been fine.
Saw him in the shop later that day and he had nothing to say. Passed him again on the way home 10 hours later and he once again tries to strike up a conversation. Some people just don't get it. Let him suck your wheel, but nothing else!

Tape2012

No offense but I disagree with almost everything you said in this thread.

When you announce your intention to draft, do you give the other cyclist the opportunity to refuse? Drafting requires coordination between both parties and very close proximity. Some folks prefer not to take on that responsibility for a stranger. What gives you the right to impose yourself on others and potentially ruin their enjoyment of their ride?

I occasionally ride with a group I am familiar with and we will draft. But I know going in. I am not comfortable drafting with a total stranger, with our wheels within inches of each other. Why would you be? You have no idea how that total stranger is going to behave.

You talk like the person you are drafting off of is in no additional danger. That is not true. If for some reason the person in front needs to slow down and you pile into them there is a good chance you are both going down. I've seen it happen.

Archwhorides 

Summer is a ****show on my 9 mi commute, because the paths are loaded with unseasoned unthinking riders of all sorts. I try to dial back my testosterone to not give too much headspace to irritating riders and try to focus instead on the smell of diners frying bacon along the way. Fall gets better around when the studs come out and I can just deal with riding to work without the drama-kings.

Carbonfiberboy 

You're welcome to disagree. I agree that there are idiots out there but then I don't draft them. My experience is quite different. I've been on over 1000 group rides, sometimes with people I ride with frequently, sometimes strangers. I'm quite particular about whom I draft. I know how a good rider behaves. That's how I can be comfortable on their wheel. BTW, one doesn't need to draft inches off. Depending on speed, a bike length can be helpful. A good rule of thumb is a foot for every 10 mph. If you're drafting inches away from a random wheel on a bike path, you're doing it wrong.

As I said earlier, I've never had a rider tell me to get off their wheel. I would regard that as extremely rude behavior. OK behavior for a pro on a training ride, though. A funny story about that: there's a 3000' climb I've done every year for a long time. The last 10 minutes of it are flatter, then an actual flat into the parking lot at the top. A local pro team was on the climb and the climbers zoomed right by me. But then on the flatter part, their obvious sprinter finally came up on my wheel and went around. So I got on his wheel and after a couple miles, contested the parking lot sprint. He heard me shift and slaughtered me of course like I knew he would - I was already a bit gray at the time - but I got a round of applause from his team mates. Cycling with other people can be a lot of fun. I don't get all this negativity.

I've seen people go down in paceline accidents too, but never had a problem myself. Once a rider a few bikes ahead of me touched wheels and went down and everyone braked hard. The bike ahead of me outbraked me by a hair so that my bladed spokes diced up his taillight rather neatly, no big deal. But that's why one always rides 6" to the left or right of the bike ahead of you.

Out here in the wilds of the PNW, we have a double century from Seattle to Portland, STP., with 10,000 riders. It's a fairly flat ride, only ~5000' of climbing, so we get long pacelines, 30-40 bikes sometimes, mostly total strangers. In all my years of doing that ride, I've only seen one paceline accident and it was no big deal. Much more common for riders to make stupid mistakes and go off the road or hit tracks badly or have other silly single bike accidents. Behavior like is advocated in these wheelsucker threads would be anathema and I've never seen it. I always prefer to do that ride solo rather than with friends, hooking up with random groups which form and dissolve.

In regard to someone behind you taking you down, never seen it or heard of it. I did see one rather amusing thing on STP. A group of maybe 40 riders were coming to an intersection with a stop sign and taking up the whole lane. The riders in front stopped while some riders behind weren't paying attention or thought the group would all just run the stop sign. So there were some metallic noises. I was about 50' back, just watching to see what would happen. But they all left together again, so apparently no big deal, just lessons learned one hopes.

So what to look for in a total stranger? Getting down to the meat of the problem, I guess. I'd say cadence is #1 . Is their cadence appropriate, and more importantly, is it similar to yours and to the rider ahead of them if there is one? Are they riding to one side of the rider ahead? Do they hold their line? Do they maintain a steady gap with the rider ahead or a steady pace if there isn't one? Are they watching what's happening up the road? I'm not a stickler for signalling. Either way. Interestingly, groups of experienced long distance riders seldom signal, because they know that at bottom, every rider is responsible for themselves. A signalling rider has one hand off the bars and doesn't have their full attention up the road. You're supposed to watch 3 bikes ahead for road problems or the road itself if there's not a long line.

So pay attention, concentrate on your riding and what's up the road, and let others express themselves on their bikes as they will anyway.

On bike paths, don't just say "On your left." Much too brief. About 20' or so back, loudly say, "I'm coming on your left." Then "on your left" if you will as you pass. You need to give people time to hear what you're saying and say it early enough that they can take some action if appropriate. You never know how people will react to being startled. Better to see it in front of you than have it happen beside you.

I would just say one further thing: as it is said, best to remove the stick from your own eye before helping your neighbor with their sty. IOW, worry about your own behavior. It's the only thing you can control. Concern yourself less with the behavior of others. They will do what they will do. Attempting to do the opposite in ineffective and only results in bad feelings.

Tape2012

That's a nice list of assumptions and expectations.

As I said I do a lot of group rides, mostly centuries so I make a conscious decision to ride with others and everything that goes with that. No problem. Mostly I enjoy riding alone.

If I am in workout mode and you came up behind me, according to your criteria I would likely be a good candidate to draft. But you have had time to observe me and make an somewhat informed decision.

But I don't know you from Adam, I can't ask for your your 'I'm qualified to decide for both of us what's safe' card. If I am alone, it's likely because I want to be alone And you expect me to be ok with you on my ass for 10 miles? I know I could just slow down or start weaving erratically or just drop you but why should I have to?

I do know that if my ex gf was riding alone on a trail and you pulled up and rode her ass without some acknowledgement that it was ok, you would likely be perceived a creep and would get a face full of bear spray.

You can't assume that everyone knows and buys in to what you are assuming without some level of communication and mutual agreement.

caloso

Carbonfiberboy 

Really? I'm the only one I know who says anything. Here I thought I was being nice. Better keep silent, I guess.

caloso