Archwhorides 

OK, staying with your stats/equation, let's say that the e-bike gives your rider a 25% speed boost (16 to 20 mph, which is not unlikely), that is a 25% increase in force, which overshadows the 8% weight difference in the bike/rider mass component.

Most locals that I see on mid-powered e-bikes must be "unreasonable", because they are riding much faster than fellow commuters on regular bikes. Does physics care what is "reasonable" or "unreasonable"?

acidfast7

In most locales that I have lived (Germany, Denmark and Sweden) speed would be limited to 25km/h. I don't know about England or the US as the market penetration is very low.

Thus, in every case I have been involved with, weight makes the different and would hover around an 8-10% difference in force.

Your mileage may vary based on your locale. Usually places with a lot of cycling infrastructure tend to have rules (separate signals for example and thus will limit the velocity of ebikes.)

acidfast7

Please take note of the EU rules where penetration is much higher than the US:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec

You're really discussing the difference between a bicycle and a scooter/moped/motorcycle over here.

Thus, I would consider your scenario invalid where most ebikes would be found.

Archwhorides 

According to your article, most e-bikes are found in China (which is also apparently implementing a 25 kph national e-bike speed limit in 2019, according to the Beijinger journal).

Meanwhile in speed-thirsty Massachusetts, the following regulations are being promoted by local advocates:

"CLASS 1: Bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the e-bike reaches 20 mph.
CLASS 2: Bicycle equipped with a throttle-actuated motor that ceases to provide assistance when the e-bike reaches 20 mph.
CLASS 3: Bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the e-bike reaches 28 mph.

Cities and towns would retain the right to restrict, regulate, or prohibit the use of e-bikes in parks, paths, and trails. MassBike recommends that in the absence of local ordinances, the slower Class 1 and Class 2 e-bikes would be allowed on paths and trails, while the Class 3 e-bikes would only be allowed on roadways."

I see a fair number CLASS 3 e-bikes these days, I'll be happy when they are banned from bikepaths.

acidfast7

Hate to say it as I love northern New England, but Mass is really irrelevant in this discussion unless you're looking to employ an outlier as an example.

Thus, the additional weight is the key factor, rather than speed.

Archwhorides 

What these examples show is that it matters what the regulations and standards are where you live. You are arguing about what is *normative*, and when one is hit by another vehicle, *normative* doesn't matter, only the particulars.

phughes

Your argument on a whole is irrelevant where many people ride. I ride on the road, amongst very heavy cars and trucks, there are no pedestrians. I have no MUP where I ride for general commuting. I also exceed 16-20MPH generally every time I ride into town to shop, since we have hills, so 35MPH is not an occasional thing. 40-45MPH is doable as well.

No, I don't ride and Ebike, but at the same time, I don't feel as if they are scary contraptions that will be the death of people everywhere. I have ridden them, and found them to be a lot of fun, and very practical for my area due to the hills. I still got the same workout, since I still had to pedal, I just went faster for the same effort. That was handy when riding amongst vehicles traveling at higher rates of speed.

In areas with pedestrians, the minor weight difference is not going to make a lot of difference. You really are not supposed to be hitting into pedestrians or other riders anyway. My weight on an ebike won't be worse than the average riders' weight plus their conventional bike, since the majority of bicyclists I see around here weight at least 25 pounds more that I do.

acidfast7

Edit: sorry for typos, phone keyboard was on German. They have since been corrected.

Most ebikes, including those in China, ride in a dedicated lane with bikes and scooters/mopeds.

It's quite rare to see an ebike mixing with traffic and I'd even hypothesise that the vast majority sold globally won't ever share a lane with car.

In most of Europe, they won't as they're not allowed to (segregated bike lanes disallows bikes on adjacent roads.)

The argument I'm making is that people here in this commuting forum can distill everything to their own circumstance but it's really irrelevant as they're not the market for a pedelec, they're a tiny minority and thus can't accurately judge the merit of the Pedelec.

Perhaps this forum should be a little more open to others with more niche experiences such as this where other members have more accumulated knowledge.

As an example, midsummer is coming and I'll be using one in Copenhagen and out to Hørsholm as an example (a CUBE pedelec). Just gotta make sure the little one's passports come through in time to travel or we'll have to scupper the plans

Rollfast

I've crossed over to the dark side a few times, but that was when the D cells in my Delta Rocket Ray went dead and I didn't have replacements on me.

phughes

I think the forum is open, with the exception of people telling someone they are not really riding a bicycle when they choose to ride an ebike, for whatever reason. With an ebike, you still have to pedal, or you don't move. If you are riding one that propels you without pedaling, it is a moped, not an ebike. That is different. I don' care if you ride a recumbent, diamond frame, trike, or ebike, you are riding. Yes, experiences are different, hence by original comment. not all places are like where you ride, that is my point. IN fact, in the states, the vast majority of places do not have bike lanes, or paths, they exist in many cities, yes, but not everywhere.

I have a friend I met on a bike tour, who now uses an electric assist on his touring bike, he is in his 70s now, and tours every year, most trips usually around 7,000 miles. He toured for years with a regular bike. He finally switched. I cannot fault him, he is still outside riding all over the country, and this year he will be doing Canada. More power to him. He still has to pedal, he just can get a bit of assist on the hills. He's having fun.

I also took issue with your statement regarding speed and mass. My bicycle is usually loaded, so it is quite heavy, heavier than an unloaded ebike. The speed is irrelevant since I regularly exceed the 16mph or 20mph to which the ebikes we are discussing are limited, as do many people who ride do. The sky is not falling, and catastrophe does not loom. The only issue regarding safety and ebikes, is the same as always, the attitude and actions of the rider.

Best of luck on the upcoming trip. I hope the passports arrive in time. I look forward to reading about the trip.

EDIT: Typos? Don't worry, I speak and write English, use an English keyboard, and still make typos.

alan s 

I love the people who say they get just as good a workout on an ebike because they are pedaling. Simply not true, unless you are pedaling as hard and for the same amount of time as a bike rider. The whole point of an ebike is to go faster with less effort, so unless you are doing laps around the block at the end of your ride and pedaling as hard the whole time, you are not getting as good a workout. Also, riding a bike 7,000 miles a year is a lot different than riding an ebike the same distance. It’s probably half or less the effort. It’s good someone is out there getting fresh air at that or any age, but they are not riding a “bike” 7,000 miles a year.

acidfast7

Define good.

alan s 

Is English your first language? If so, you should know the definition.

acidfast7

No one in this thread stated "as good a workout", which is horrible English, for what it's worth.

I gave you a chance to clarify and you elected to harass me.

I think that's quite poor form.

alan s 

“Good” is “gut” in German, I think.

acidfast7

Depends. English is my mother tongue though.

robertorolfo

No, that's not what I was saying.

But I was implying that an e-bike at those speeds isn't the same as a regular bike, partly because of the mass/weight/force issues mentioned by others. Another issue, however, is the user. Those really aren't particularly high speeds, but seeing the way some people ride them, it's enough to get a lot of inexperienced or reckless people in trouble.

alan s 

Google translate says “so gut wie ein Training.”

acidfast7

Machine translation is dangerous. Be careful.

Roccorides

I think this is a fair point. I'm on a major bike path everday. The people whizzing past pedestrians going 25+ mph are either ebikers or experienced roadies. The difference is the roadies have typically been biking for many years and know how to handle themselves. Most ebikers don't inspire that same confidence, not by a long shot.

On the other hand, I have never once seen any kind of bicycle hit a pedestrian. I'm sure it happens, but if I'm not seeing it despite all the time I'm out there, the frequency must be very low. The low frequency doesn't seem to correlate with the high anxiety one detects in these types of online discussions about the dangers of ebikes.

phughes

Well, since you used 7.000 miles, I take it you are referring to something I said. The man I was talking about rides a normal bike at home, but decided to add an assist to his touring bike for long tours. He is riding fully loaded, over the Rocky Mountains at age 75. He did many log tours without any assist, so at this point of his life I feel he is entitled. I can guarantee he still has to put forth an effort, but the assist does help him cover more ground with the same effort. I have never said you get the same workout, although you do if you put in the same effort. It's a moot point though since it isn't always about that. Sometimes its simply about enjoying yourself.

I could use one where I live. It would make long trips in the area for running errands better. By long I am talking about 20-30 miles either way, in the hills of Pittsburgh and the surrounding area. I do those rides on occasion with the Surly, but could do it more often on an ebike due to the ease of higher speeds. A friend, a manager at a bike shop used one for a short time. His commute took too long on a regular bike, due to distance and the hilly terrain. With the ebike, it shortened his commute time enough to make it doable, and still have time with his family. To make it doable time wise, he had to expend the same effort he would on a regular bike, he just went faster, which was the idea.

Barchettaman

OP here.

I’ve now done about 750km on the thing.

For an urban commute with riding on shared bike/pedestrian paths, a 16mph assistance cut-out feels about right, safety-wise.

It would be nice to go faster with the motor but it means that I at least get a decent workout when I’m out on a training ride. Typically I average 27-28kmh on it, so am riding without assistance on the flat and downhills. I get a decent sweat on.

I swapped out the knobbly tyres for 2” slicks and it rolls very well.

The Bosch middle motor offers quite a bit of resistance when riding beyond the cut out speed. Yamaha and Shimano are apparently better in this regard.

Oh, and the ‘dark side’ reference in the title was very much tongue in cheek. E-MTBers are however regarded with utter disdain on the German MTB specialist forums.

I’m riding more for leisure and fitness than I have done for years. The bike is so much fun and I’m exploring all the local forest trails and Landwirtschaft roads, which were never as amusing on my CX bike or roadie.

Darth Lefty 

I've been looking at E-MTB components which, compared to regular bike stuff, are happily overbuilt in ways that benefit reliability.

Lots of tires are now coming with an e-bike decal. The difference seems to be in the carcass but I can't tell the details.

SRAM NX is e-bike rated.

DT Swiss makes a line of E-MTB wheels, they have reinforced hub shells and rims. The cheaper ones ship with Alpine style spokes, 350 hubs, pinned rim, the more expensive ones Alpine III, 240 hubs, welded rims. They are all a few ounces heavier than their all-mountain equivalents. They are all 28h straight pull, and if that bothers you, they are also selling the rims and hubs separately. The hub even comes in a 36H j-bend version. This is also of interested to tandem riders because the Boost 148 standard when converted to QR is 141 OLD, which is close enough as makes no problems to the tandem standard.
https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/...hybrid-e-bike/

Shimano quietly introduced 4-pot "non series" brakes that are roughly Deore M6000 level.
https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mt...ce-for-enduro/