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Daytime Lights: Best Thing I Ever Did

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Daytime Lights: Best Thing I Ever Did

Old 09-27-19, 08:00 AM
  #26  
Papa Tom
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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
+1
Jim: Gotta say that I, too, have trouble following those embedded quotes, Also, I strongly disagree that cyclists do not need to be seen from the front.
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Old 09-27-19, 10:28 AM
  #27  
Jim from Boston
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Originally Posted by alan s View Post
Jim, I have no idea what you are trying to say with embedded quote after embedded quote, but the one thing that jumped out at me as wrong is “While nice, it is not essential that oncoming traffic see you, it is more important that trailing traffic see you.

Oncoming turning and crossing traffic has very little time to react to a cyclist, so it is equally important to be visible from the front and the rear.
Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
+1
Originally Posted by Papa Tom View Post
Jim: Gotta say that I, too, have trouble following those embedded quotes, Also, I strongly disagree that cyclists do not need to be seen from the front.
Thanks for (attempting) to read my posts, and for your replies. FWIW, I have several times in the past tried to explain my posting style, including my signature line, but otherwise it's done with nested quotes.

In any case I initially posted to this thread started by @Papa Tom, about a similar current thread:
Originally Posted by Papa Tom View Post
For anyone on the fence about whether to add daytime lights to your commuter, I just want to say that mine have added a much, much better sense of security to my rides, both to and from work. People clearly see me now and treat me like a moving vehicle, rather than just another annoying tree-hugger who's not in a car.

Don't even worry so much about WHICH headlight and tail light you buy; just do it.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
So @Papa Tom, is your [pointed] current thread actually a reply to this similar current thread,“Daytime Running Lights - Get Them! Video”? There was a lot of the theorizing, analyzing, and disputes on that one. .
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Just my opinion, but as one who cycles and occasionally drives in visually complex urban conditions, I think in ambient lighting a bright pinpoint light. especially flashing, is conspicuous [incuding a rear blinkie].
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Yawn. Over in the A&S forum a cyclist was hit in broad daylight with a flasher going. At very, very high speed. I am amazed they survived at all.

While nice, it is not essential that oncoming traffic see you, it is more important that trailing traffic see you, but it is even more important that you as a cyclist do not act unpredictably and force a motorist to accommodate your erratic actions. Because they may not, whether they 'see' you or not
.
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Which then begs the question: how much MONEY is it reasonable to spend on what has already been acknowledged as a crapshoot?
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Obviously night time lights are a necessity, but I think calling day time lights a crapshoot is begging the question
IMO, nesting quotes allows me to to consider the contrasting or concurring opinions of various subscribers to a thread.

“The opinions expressed by @Liesesturm above do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Jim from Boston, Bike Forums, or Internet Brands."

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 09-27-19 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 09-27-19, 10:59 AM
  #28  
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Yeah, sorry, but the nested quotes are confusing. Much more clear to quote another poster, then put your comments under that quote. Then post another quote and then comment on that quote, etc.
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Old 09-27-19, 12:04 PM
  #29  
Jim from Boston
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
Yeah, sorry, but the nested quotes are confusing. Much more clear to quote another poster, then put your comments under that quote. Then post another quote and then comment on that quote, etc.
Thanks too for your comment, and not to be flippant, but I’ve been happily post my way for over 6800 posts over more than 10 years.

Perhaps you noticed that I nested two of your separate posts, appearing on a different thread, to present your opinion in a connected, continuous fashion, with my commentary:
Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
Having a bright flashing light on the front & back of your bike ought to negate the "I didn't see him" excuse somewhat.

Why couldn't you see the cyclist wearing brightly colored clothing with flashing lights on his bike?
Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
What I mean is, a distracted driver shouldn't be able to use "I didn't see him" when the cyclist has brightly colored clothing and bright flashing lights.

I hope my daytime lights attract the attention of drivers so they know I'm there, but we all know that all too often "I didn't see him" is what they say because they weren't looking.

So I would hope that a cop would ask the driver, "WHY didn't you see them? What were you looking at which made you not see them?"…
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I have had the experience of being hit-and-run, presumably not intentionally, but by a distracted (?inebriated) driver. The police filed charges.

The police were great, and their report at the subsequent trial was spot on and particularly noted my details for visibility, including lights and high vis vest.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I think the police testimony in my accident about lights was favorable to my case, though was in the situation of a rear hit-and-run at night...

The driver got a year in jail.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
By nesting quote boxes, I indicate to the quoted subscriber(s) that I have read the post(s), reflected on the content, and extracted meaningful point(s) that I worked into a [contrived] quote chain

The quote chain allows me to quote a few subscribers [and/or myself] on one topic in one post
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Furthermore, I have documented to the reader that the topic at hand has been considered before, and the thread containing that quote, with the link, may be a source of further information.
Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
I scroll past JFB's musings. If you are reading this, quoting me is a waste of time.
Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
Sometimes I do too. (tldr) Other times I'll quickly find and read the "new" unquoted thoughts in the post to see what he's writing about. Either way, it's hardly difficult to deal with.

But, if he's quoted me, I'll almost always read the entire post, just because I'm curious to see where I fit in his virtual conversation.

I find a variety of posting styles makes things more interesting, even if I skip reading some of them.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 09-27-19 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 09-27-19, 12:33 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Thanks too for your comment, and not to be flippant, but Iíve been happily post my way for over 6800 posts over more than 10 years.

Perhaps you noticed that I nested two of your separate posts, appearing on a different thread, to present your opinion in a connected, continuous fashion, with my commentary:
Jim, can you imagine if everyone here posted this way? If you are not a lawyer getting paid by the word, you went into the wrong profession.
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Old 09-27-19, 03:38 PM
  #31  
Jim from Boston
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Originally Posted by alan s View Post
Jim, can you imagine if everyone here posted this way?
Why not? Quote boxes are cool.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
(from a now-closed thread) I think that the use of quote boxes, which I have not seen elsewhere is a remarkable way to graphically diagram a dialogue...
Originally Posted by alan s View Post
If you are not a lawyer getting paid by the word, you went into the wrong profession.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
ÖPosting has become an avocation for me. Since my job requires writing reports, with legal implications, I consider myself a ďwordsmith,Ē and beside the exchange of information and ideas, I enjoy the mechanics of writing, such as grammar, composition , style, etc. for that addtional mental stimulation.
Originally Posted by W.C. Fields
ďIf you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with b..s..t.Ē
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Old 09-27-19, 05:14 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
...and not to be flippant, but Iíve been happily post my way for over 6800 posts over more than 10 years.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Originally Posted by W.C. Fields
ďIf you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with b..s..t.Ē
Or show contempt for normal means of communication/discussion by pleasuring yourself with imaginary conversations.
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Old 09-27-19, 05:48 PM
  #33  
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personal attacks are not allowed
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Old 09-27-19, 05:52 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
personal attacks are not allowed
No one is personally attacking anyone. Iím sure Jim has a lot to share and Iíd love to read it, but his responses are usually lost in the bloated quotes.
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Old 09-27-19, 05:54 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by alan s View Post
No one is personally attacking anyone. Iím sure Jim has a lot to share and Iíd love to read it, but his responses are usually lost in the bloated quotes.
can't change it so I just leave it alone
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Old 09-27-19, 06:19 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by alan s View Post
... Iím sure Jim has a lot to share and Iíd love to read it, but his responses are usually lost in the bloated quotes.
I agree. Just can't see scrolling through two or three screens-worth at times. I've never resorted to a forum's ignore function until now, plus they remind me of years of debugging nested "if" statements. (Shudder )
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Old 09-27-19, 07:49 PM
  #37  
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Jim:

Consider this an intervention. All of us who love you want to see you kick the quotes!

Now, anyway, back to the daytime light discussion...
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Old 09-28-19, 04:10 AM
  #38  
Jim from Boston
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I ride with daytime lights. I think itís safer.
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Old 09-28-19, 05:32 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Papa Tom View Post
All of us who love you want to see you kick the quotes!
no, not all of us
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Old 09-28-19, 06:29 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I ride with daytime lights. I think itís safer.
That-a-way, Jim. You're doing great. And my apology to rumrunn6 for dragging him into this.

Regarding the daytime lights, I only wish I had one switch to turn them both off when I arrive at work. Along with my ipod and my bluetooth speaker.
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Old 09-28-19, 07:24 AM
  #41  
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Be careful with rechargeable batteries

I use a small Cateye white LED forward during the day in the flashing mode. I don't use it at night because it is small. It runs on two AA and I use rechargeable batteries. I found that they will flash even when the battery is really low on charge. This is good in one sense since it doesn't cut out but bad in that I don't have a good sense of when to recharge. I've learned to regularly turn it on in the solid mode and examine it to know when to change the batteries.

I believe a daylight running light adds to my conspicuity and thus my safety.
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Old 09-28-19, 07:53 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by TXBDan View Post
I'm a big fan as well.

There is such a thing as TOO bright a blinkie at night. Prob less so during the day.

I just got some Bontrager Ion/Flare 200 lights that I like a lot because they change brightness automatically based on the light conditions. Also very small and light.
Absolutely. That would piss people off big time. I check before every ride, to ensure that I'm not blinding anyone. I have a few store fronts (glass walls) that I can pull into to check brightness from a distance.
Originally Posted by Papa Tom View Post
So how many lights is too many? I have one 850-lumen headlight set to steady/pulse and one 150-lumen taillight set to a delayed blink. I feel like they are perfect. At what point do you think multiple lights blinking at various speeds becomes more of a (potentially dangerous) distraction than an eye-catcher?
Well for me, that would be one light up front. (I typically set that one to flash/pulse since I live in the city so I set it to get motorists attention more than something I need to see the road) and in the rear, I think 3 should be the limit: one mounted high, medium, and low.

The medium and low are permanently mounted to my bike, while the helmet rear light is less used except for added safety when necessary.

When I use all three (only dark/low-light high-speed roads) I set them to pulse rather than flash since the random pulse of all 3 is enough to be seen but not so rapid that they become annoying or give someone vertigo.
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Old 09-28-19, 08:46 AM
  #43  
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I have a helmet-mounted head/tail light setup (L&M Vis 360 Pro) that I use for all of my road and MUP riding, day and night. The blinking tail light is 25 lumens and the head lamp runs between 150 lumens (steady or blinking) up to 600 lumens (steady only). I have the option to turn off the tail light, but I never do. Switching on the helmet is very convenient and I vary the intensity of the light and mode depending on light and traffic conditions.

One thing I like about this setup is that I can turn my head to direct my headlight beam away from bikers and pedestrians on the MUP, and conversely towards drivers who I want to be sure to see my presence

If a driver does something unsafe around me and I catch up to them at a stop, beaming a headlight into their brains is a good way to let them know that I care.

Particularly on bright days with comparatively dark shadows, I'm convinced that having tail lights on is essential, and head lights are a good thing too.
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Old 09-28-19, 09:12 AM
  #44  
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Helmet Mounted DRL

In addition to bike-mounted DRL front and back, I use lights on my helmet during the day in particular situations. Both lights can be turned on and off quickly and reliably.

Forward, I have a small white LED (like current Blackburn 2fer) which I turn on as soon as I sense the possibility of a situation developing such as a left or right cross. I turn it on long before evasive maneuvers would be necessary.



Front white LED (like Blackburn 2fer)


My commute includes a road with adequate shoulders that pinch out in some places. I turn on my rear LED (a very bright discontinued Serfas) in flashing mode before I move into the lane. Also, when in the lane on streets without a shoulder, Iíll turn it on when I am not comfortable with the vehicle approaching me. This includes a fast closing rate or a dense group of vehicles.



Rear-facing bright Serfas (discontinued)

My rationale is that by introducing a new, eye-catching element to the visual scene Iíll catch the attention of those posing the threat and communicate to everyone around me that Iím aware a situation could develop.

Realistically, it probably helps in some situations and with some people and not with others. I think it helps my odds.
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Old 09-28-19, 09:21 AM
  #45  
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What a great idea, the front and rear lights on the helmet! I'll bet this has been around for a while and that I just haven't been aware of the option. My only concern would be that "the look" is something that might encourage a wise-ass driver to want to mess with someone wearing one.

I wonder, too, how long it will be before even the brightest, flashiest bike lights start to blend into the scenery and become invisible, like day-glo shirts and orange flags.
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Old 09-28-19, 12:24 PM
  #46  
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IMO, a driver would have to be a real Neanderthal to go after an obvious bike commuter for the type of light they use, but I suppose anything is possible.

I also suppose that drivers could become indifferent to bike lights, but what is the alternative?

Originally Posted by Papa Tom View Post
What a great idea, the front and rear lights on the helmet! I'll bet this has been around for a while and that I just haven't been aware of the option. My only concern would be that "the look" is something that might encourage a wise-ass driver to want to mess with someone wearing one.

I wonder, too, how long it will be before even the brightest, flashiest bike lights start to blend into the scenery and become invisible, like day-glo shirts and orange flags.
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Old 09-30-19, 12:38 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by gear64 View Post
Maybe she was politely suggesting they might actually be too bright. That's my opinion of many models, bright enough to be counter productive in many instances. Analogous to riding into the sun. Not necessarily a total white out but enough to be painfully distracting, and just asinine on MUPs.
How exactly can they be too bright to be counter productive? That is the most bizarre statement and I have heard it over and over on this forum. If you are traveling in the right lane incoming drivers are to your left and not in direct line of your head light. If it is a driver in the same line they do not see the head light until they are past you and only get a view in the rear view mirror and during the day it is hardly too bright. As for rear reds do you find other cars brake lights too bright also? SMH.

If the lights annoy you good! Thatís the objective
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Old 09-30-19, 12:41 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Papa Tom View Post
For anyone on the fence about whether to add daytime lights to your commuter, I just want to say that mine have added a much, much better sense of security to my rides, both to and from work. People clearly see me now and treat me like a moving vehicle, rather than just another annoying tree-hugger who's not in a car.

Don't even worry so much about WHICH headlight and tail light you buy; just do it.
I second the thought! I use dynamos which I just leave on most of the time. I can put them in a sensor mode, which brightens them at night and leaves them slighly less bright for the day. Awesome.

A personal nitpick: I'm not a fan of flashing lights in my face, plus there's a fair bit of evidence they are no more effective than steady (counter-intuitively, they may actually be LESS effective than steady). Please be judicious if you have to use them, especially at night.
https://averagejoecyclist.com/use-flashing-bike-lights/
https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/bic...nking-problems
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Old 09-30-19, 12:46 PM
  #49  
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I was delivering evening edition newspapers in the early 60s. I had a Schwinn 3 speed with a huge front basket for holding papers. Once the days got shorter I bought a generator driven light. Talk about resistance! And it had the brightness of an old ĎCí cell flashlight. Todayís lights are amazing
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Old 09-30-19, 01:45 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
Yeah, sorry, but the nested quotes are confusing. Much more clear to quote another poster, then put your comments under that quote. Then post another quote and then comment on that quote, etc.
Yeah, I just skip the nesting doll posts.

I can't make heads or tails out of them.

Jim seems like a nice guy and I think he has valid commentary to offer most of the time. But it's just too much to sort through trying to figure out post order and context and relevance on each post on the nested post threads.

As for the main topic of the thread.....

No one has ever said that a day time running flasher light made a bike LESS visible. Maybe they don't work all the time. I can see if you are coming around a corner into oncoming traffic no amount of light would help as there just wouldn't be enough time to react once the bike was in view. That stuff happens.

But having a light doesn't make you LESS visible. It can ONLY help. And 90% of the time it does make you more visible.

90% of the time (not scientific) it makes you more visible
10% of the time it doesn't help much
0% of the time it makes you less visible

That's easy math for me

Last edited by Skipjacks; 09-30-19 at 01:51 PM.
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