duke_of_hazard

There are lots of schools and condos I bike through since traffic is generally less. These are not gated communities. The roads are publicly accessible. Some are even already mapped on google streetview. Some have signs saying "private property" but make no mention of anything else.

Is this considered fair use or is it still technically trespassing? It's not practical for me to ask permission for each place I bike through. Plus even if I did, I fear I would get some boilerplate CYA negative response.

ThermionicScott 

If you get shot, you'll know they didn't want you there.

Eric F

The "Private Property" signs may just be an indicator that it's not City/County-owned and maintained roads, rather than a warning that it's a problem for you to be there. If the roads are accessible for use by the general public, you're probably okay riding on your bike. I would suggest not being a nuisance, however, just to be on the safe side.

zandoval 

Private Property v/s No Trespassers v/s No Bicycles or Skate Boards v/s Just the word "Posted"...

All the same but not really. If its a road off a public street well traveled by vehicles and the signs are set back from the road you can probably get away with it. But if your in Texas out in the country negotiating an obscure partly gravel path and you see a sign in the middle of the pathway that says "POSTED"... Ya better turn around... Ha

And that was before the boarders were compromised. Careful, Careful, Careful...

Most of the ranchers in South Texas have taken a DMZ type of attitude towards anyone on their property. Tread lightly here...





These not my own images.

GhostRider62

It is trespassing. That is not ok. When a landowner posts a sign like that, it usually means they will take legal action if you trespass. Each state is different.

Darth Lefty 

I go through a large apartment complex on most rides. I used to live in it. It's got the road on one side and the bike trail on the other side. All wide open. I don't consider this any more sacred than a parking lot. If it were gated or they were trying to prevent access I'd respect it. They did close off a path on the north side where I used to take my dog to the pond and there used to be kids making forts and smoking pot (and whoever runs that land also put up a fence). If they wanted to deny access they surely have more to worry about than me - the guy that comes every day and fills up his old minivan with bottles for the CRV, or homeless camping in the greenbelt and trying to use their facilities or even squatting.

ClydeClydeson

It's always better to beg forgiveness than ask permission

If it is a parking lot or basically an extension to a sidewalk, like cutting through an apartment building property to get to the road behind, it is unlikely you will find any trouble.

If you have to jump a fence or open a gate then you are getting closer to trouble. You should know better.

But just remember: if anyone tells you to go away, apologize profusely and sincerely, and find the shortest route back to public property. They just answered the question for you.

metz1295

I would have zero issues biking through commercial property or multi-family housing parking lots, as long as it's not gated or posted 'no trespassing.'

GhostRider62

Reading OP's post is not 100% clear. I would cut thru school property, that is not private. Privately owned Condo complex? No. It is obvious why they do not want strangers there.

But any privately owned land with signs posted saying, "Private Property" is generally "Notice" meaning keep out. In my state, such a notice puts the trespass into a different category and a higher offense than unposted or unfenced land.

I would ask the OP, why do you think it is "Ok" to go onto privately owned property posted as such and consider it "Fair Use"?

Juan Foote

Something that a cycling friend of mine ran into, and also a rather (in)famous post here regarding riding on private property was the liability issue. IE, they don't want you riding there because if you crash or into someone then they could be liable for damage.

In a case like this and for much of what you are seeming to be discussing....I would ask forgiveness if it becomes an issue. Riding away from traffic is it's own reward.

In one of the above mentioned, it was an individual doing training/riding fast in loops. If you pass one or two times a day it may never be an issue. In the other case the club was riding around the very expansive parking and driveway area for the giant church complex he was a member of. He never really asked permission, and no one ever said anything until one of the riders went down due to the negligence of another rider and lawyers got involved. Now no one rides there.

duke_of_hazard

In a nutshell, "no harm, no foul". Also condos are not silos. They are part of a larger community . It is in their best interest to play nice with their fellow community. If they want nothing to do with the community then they should be gated.

scottfsmith

My view is "private property" is meaningless for entry or not, if they want to keep me out it has to be "no trespassing", "access prohibited" or the like, or have a closed gate. This is in Maryland, other states may differ.

I agree it is not a good idea to over-use any posted private property routes, even if they don't say no trespassing. There are a couple private communities I bike through regularly to either get some great hills, do a short cut, or avoid heavy traffic, but any of them with signs or (open) gates I don't use that often.

GhostRider62

A sign has the same force of law as a sign. They do not want you there for good reason.

There is harm. You trespassed. You are breaking the law. I don't get your thought process.

They have their own community and probably have insurance to cover their community. If you crash and injury yourself on their pothole, I bet you would be quick to seek legal redress. You are not part of their community. It is private and posted. You are trespassing.

scottfsmith

The OP was only referring to signs stating "Private Property". On the face of it this just means the land is not government-owned, no more no less. Some states may read more into that, but not my state. Here is a webpage where you can see it varies a lot by state.

duke_of_hazard

I am not part of their community but I am part of the greater community they sit in. Every condo has insurance that covers accidents by non-residents.

GhostRider62

Ok. You do not respect the law or the rights of others. I won't say more, I don't want to hurt your feelings.

duke_of_hazard

I follow the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law.

GhostRider62

Your divining rod is crooked.

Someone goes to the trouble to post their property and you claim you are following the spirit? I guess you live on another planet to think there is some broad social construct allowing fair use of another's property. Can I come over and take your best bike out for a ride in the rain?

I hope you don' t live in Texas

Juan Foote

IDK, feel sort of like you are confusing the issue as to a posting of "private property" in reference to a neighborhood, and someone's yard or driveway. I don't think I recall the OP saying he was riding across someone's yard. Didn't say anything about jumping a fence.
Private property being posted is one thing. No trespassing is a whole other.

Why do you care so much about it? Just curious.

Bigbus

Lots of times the roads are open to the public, but the property, be it a condo, house, or vacant lot, is not, even though the road is not publicly owned. Lots of times those roads don't lead anywhere anyway. But if they do, I'll use it unless asked not to. Or if a big dog comes out and chases me I just write it off to being my own damned fault because it was questionable whether I should have been there or not. Your call. Remember the song "Signs"--Signs, signs, everywhere a sign. Do this don't do that, can't you read the signs?"

GhostRider62

I have a second property that I rent. It has a cut thru driveway connecting two public streets, it is convenient for trespassers to cut thru. It is posted "Private Property" and language to keep people from cutting thru. The driveway thru the complex is private property. There is a lot of vandalism to cars and graffiti from these outsiders. A cut thru on private property is what is being discussed. There has been no mention someone's yard. There is an old farm road/driveway thru a farm not far from me. It would be really nice shortcut and save me some climbing. It has a sign posted. I would never dream of cutting thru there. WRT why I care, private property is the foundation of our economy and following clearly written laws are important, so, I care. Plus, he asked for an opinion. I gave it and he did not like it. His statement that it is in their best interest to play nice sounds like, if you don't let us trespass, we will handle it our way. And, the statement that they should have a fence if they want to keep me out is absurd, fences around a large complex would run hundreds of thousands. The entitlement is disgusting to be frank. It is absolutely not in the best interest of a privately owned community to allow outsiders to cut thru.

Juan Foote

Got to keep that long hair tucked under your cap too....

ClydeClydeson

I don't get your thought process - if a person passes through a property and leaves without incident, who is harmed and how are they harmed?

Juan Foote

We have a sign on our drive that I would assume is very similar. I live on a street that is roughly a mile long. I am about 2/5 of the way down and just over the hill where you can see the circle that much further down. In spite of the sign, every heavy truck/delivery/lookie-do ALL turn around there. It is destroying the end of my driveway. I have called and complained to Amazon, to Fed-Ex, to UPS, and will actively go out and ***** at people I see doing it if I am close enough to say something. It does ZERO good. Ain't like the police are going to come out for it either. Certainly not the same in a direct causation way as vandalizing a car.

I may have missed a part of the discussion at some point, where I bolded part of what you wrote. And you say afterward even, that it doesn't appear he is asking about cutting private property like that (description) but rather streets through an area that is marked as such. I just don't see the two being an apples to apples comparison in spite of absolutely feeling your post.

Just the same, the difference I see is a "private property" sign, and a "no trespassing" sign. Even in spite of (both our) indignance, I don't think there is much to be done about it unless you can catch and document actual property damages being committed. I touched on the other aspect (of my opinion of it) in a post above, I think #10.

Any rate, well worded post.

GhostRider62

I am having a hard time visualizing your street. If the street is public, people can use it. If you lived in a private community and the street was maintained by the private community, vehicles should NOT be using it to turn around. Enforcement is an entirely different can of worms. In polite society, people follow the rules and do not need to engage the law for minor trespass. If it were criminal trespass, the law would respond or at least where I live. If I warned someone and if the property was posted and they did not stop, I am 100% sure my local PD would respond to the call

Trying to litigate what constitutes harm is well beyond what I wish to discuss but will give two examples. If I am sitting on my patio enjoying the peace and quiet while cars and bikes and pedestrians are parading thru my living space, I am harmed. They are breaking the law, pure and simple. If I am on privately owned hunting property and after spending hours in the bitter cold, a bunch of yahoos on snowmobiles come blasting thru, I am harmed. My hunt is ruined and the marks they leave on the soil are damaging. Plus, they are breaking the law. Society is harmed when lawlessness is considered Fair Game or Fair Use.