Wind 'N Snow

That sounds counterintuitive. Would the gal with the hybrid have to pay more - even though she got better mileage? That sound like a disincentive.

Your second point, about taxing bike paths, here in Canuckaland, both the Federal and Provincial governments tax the hell out of gas (and everything else-welcome to socialism 101, comrade!). But very little of the money seems to be put back into the roadway infrastructure. I think the new prices will force these government to start paying some of this money back (some work has already been done here). But once this happens, I can see user pay and privately run bike and recreation paths - welcome to capitalism 101.

That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, better than what the cities can afford now.

Wind 'N Snow

A buddy of mine invented one!

Really. It is really easy to make, he just hasn't figured out how to capture the energy yet. Here is how it works: First you butter a piece of toast. Then you get a cat and strap the toast, butter side up on the back of the cat.

As you know toast always lands butter side down and cats always land on their feet.

Then you throw the cat out the window, about a foot from the ground the cat/toast contraption will start spinning, toast side down, legs side down. It will keep spinning. Now the trick is how to get this contraption to transfer energy, how to keep the cat fed and the toast from drying out.

Don't try this at home, my friend is a trained professional.

jeff-o

What your friend doesn't know is that when a cat is dizzy (say, from spinning a lot) it is no longer able to land on its feet.

Don't believe me? Try this experiment. Grab a cat by the tail, and spin it around your head a couple times. Then let the cat fly... it won't land on its feet.


Sorry, your friend's machine won't work.

Wind 'N Snow

No, it doesn't get dizzy, that's where the strobe light and the kitty gravol comes in. I can't tell you anymore 'cause it's patent pending!

skijoring

I'll be your 'angel' investor. You know, to stoke the kitty up.

bcspain

I didn't say it very well, but what would actually happen is that the actual cost per gallon of gas would be the same. What the pump then would do is access the mileage record from the onboard computer to see how many miles the car had been since it's last fill up, and then assess a per-mile tax. The gas guzzler would actually pay more in total. He'd pay the cost per gallon, plus the additional sales tax for that, then the per mile tax on top of all that. No matter what you filled up, you'd pay a per mile tax instead of a per gallon tax. For instance, if the hybrid only used a gallon of gas to go 100 miles, the tax per mile was a buck, and the gas itself was 3 bucks, it would feel like the hybrid owner was paying $103 per gallon. In this case that would be the total sale, as well. The gas guzzler at 10mpg would buy 10 gallons to do the same hundred miles, but would pay $30 for the gas and the same $100 in tax. Total sale would be $130, but it would feel like $13 per gallon. (I pulled these numbers out of the air to make the math easy, so don't get caught up in the actual numbers, please).

Everyone would pay the more or less the same for the use of the road that way, (much the way a toll road works) but the gas guzzler would pay more in sales tax and actual fuel cost. Or, at least that was the gist of the plan. I'm not sure they'd ever pull it off, and even if they did, it would be years before cars and gas pumps could be refit to use that system.

I just thought it was an interesting idea, not necessarily a good one, but interesting none the less.

bcspain

Only problem I see with this is that you'd need a trampoline or other such device at the bottom to bounce the cat back up so he can fall again. Other wise, you'll soon run out of cats if you're more than a couple floors up. Since no system is absolutely perfect, at least a few of them would make it to the ground while spinning, and roll out into the traffic!

I love cats, they taste just like chicken!

Wind 'N Snow

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

Wind 'N Snow

Hmmmm, I never thought of the bounce back hypothesis. But this system will be perfect. Just like some of the "perfect" little kitties around here that scat under my deck!

I love cats too, no really...I just love toast more.

RonH

$2.59 today (August 15).

Glad I'm riding.

bcspain

On 8-10 when I posted the first time, it was 2.32. Today, on 8-15, it's 2.57. Twenty five cents in 5 days.

Gonna have to see if my employer will let me telecommute!

recursive

If you're turned down, perhaps you should velocommute.

tedi k wardhana

in jakarta, Rp.2400,-per liter (approx. US$ 1,50 a gallon)

AFCommuter

Well, my expertise lies in desiging and building the machinery that makes all the little gadgets that we love so much, like air conditioners and tools and so forth. Don't know much about engines, but if someone can come up with one, I can help with the machines you'll need to make it. But other threads that have explored this same idea have had every idea that anyone put forth pounded into the ground. For instance, I suggested (and no, I don't know how to do it) the possibility of some sort refit to convert existing cars to hydrogen power. Less pollution, etc... That idea was met by howls from the same people who were a few posts before decrying the automobile about how poor the performance would be. One guy even elaborated at length on how his Corvette would only manage a small percentage of the horsepower it has on gasoline. They went on at length about how hydrogen consumes more engery to make than it provides, etc etc etc. Same for alcohol. My point in that thread was that it ain't gonna matter what the performance is when the supply runs out. But any suggestion beyond moving to Metropolis, living on the 300th floor and riding a bike to work is met with a hundred reasons why it won't work before it even gets tried.

And lest ye forget, gasoline for cars is not the only use for oil. The trucks, planes, trains, and busses that carry all the stuff we make and us all run on some sort of petroleum product. A lot of the folks in your neck of the woods use oil to heat thier houses and apartments. What are you going to do when the oil is gone? This problem is not just about cars, it's about everything. even the machines that I build would grind to a halt with out it. Sure, we can stretch it out for a while, but the supply of crude is finite, and when its gone, it's gone.[/QUOTE]

***************************************************************
I haven't completely read this thread so someone may have already replied to this comment. If you go to the following link...https://www.switch2hydrogen.com/...you will see that there are people doing exactly what you suggested. Thing is are you willing to pay 12-14000 dollars for the conversion plus spare parts, you turn your $20,000 car into a $35,000 car without adding any value (unless someone else you happen to sell your car to want's the technology). It would take over 14 years to recoup the money invested since with modest driving most people spend about $1,000/year on gas (double that if you're truely addicted to the car) and you're still looking at 7 years to recoup...this is a major investment. Anyway that aside the only thing that will force the issue is demand, if people stop buying SUV's or buy only hybrid cars or hydrogen cars then it will force the auto makers to conform, right now there is no incentive for them to invest the time or money into these technology.

As far as the comment about not being able to commute on bike it all has to do with priority, if your priority is to sleep in hop in your car and just barely make it to work you will pay for the gas, if your priority is to save money on gas get extra exercise and make it into work energized you will bike and make the sacrifices. I have a job where my uniforms must be pressed nicely (no creases) and present a professional image 24/7 so I drive my uniforms in on Monday and bike the rest of the days, if you have a job where you can neatly fold your cloths and put them in a backpack or saddle bag you can easily bike every day.

My last comment (kinda long for a first post I know) is about your comment on oil being finite, we really don't even know how oil is made last time I checked (I'm no expert by a long shot but this is just what I've read). We used to be convinced it was the liquified bodies of ancient creatures (dinosaurs etc...) but that was disproven long ago. It could be very likely that the earth continually makes this stuff at depths that we do not have visibility into.

Alright, let the bullets fly, I'm used to it...

Ubie

I was in SF and San Jose last week, highest i saw was $3.09/gal for 87 (!!!!) and the lowest was $2.61 (ousite of Capitola). It was $2.83 next to the airport in San Jose.

skijoring

AfCommuter, it would require a *ton* of electricity to fix hydrogen on a large scale. Electricity production is quite dirty, using coal for the most part. Hydro power is big, but there are drawbacks. Ask the salmon.

It's incorrect to say that the oil found in the earth is finite, but the levels at which we pump will not continue unabated, meaning that the amount we pump per day will start decreasing as formerly 'full' oil wells are drawn down and then, finally, depleted.
The amount of newly created wells to depleted wells is not a 1:1 ratio, and that ratio will tip further in the 'wrong' direction in the future. It's not sustainable at our current rate of use.

bcspain

Yeah, you're right, you didn't read the rest. Others have already posted all the "this won't ever work because..." scenarios......except the "government conspiracy" bit. I've been waiting for that one to come up too. That must be it.....Where's Mulder when you need him?

And surely none of you believe that the supply of oil or anything else on this planet for that matter is infinite. Guys, look outside the box...there is a finite supply of EVERYTHING! Oil, air, water, lava, iron ore, bauxite, it don't matter. There's only so much of it at any one time. Granted, some of these resources are renewable, (wood, for example), but you can cut the forest down a hell of a lot faster than it will grow back. And when you cut the last tree down, will there be any more? Ok, maybe the earth does make more oil as time goes by, but like you said, who knows? If it can make an infinite supply, and cranks it out everyday, why isn't the ocean full of oil instead of water? Or maybe it's like blood, when some leaks out, it makes more to make up for the loss. People have been known to bleed to death, so why wouldn't the earth? Oooh...now that's a scary thought. Suppose we suck it dry, what happens then? Would the Earth die?

I liked the idea someone else said that GM had back in the 50's about nuclear powered cars. A near....i said "NEAR" infinte supply of power, and you don't even have to worry about accidents. Wouldn't be anything left but a big hole in the ground.

Patriot

No, that's not how fission reactors work. There would be a meltdown, yes, so there would be a small hole in the ground where the core melted, and the car burned into a cinder. But; no nuclear yeild. The bigger concern is when the billowing smoke goes into the air. Radioactive waste would drift halfway across the country everytime there was a serious car accident.

Imagine a country full of Mini-Chernobyls scattered everywhere across the nation.

Nope, not a good idea.

As a former nuclear engineer, I think it would be wise to build an adequate supply of new/highly reliable reactor plants for electrical power (less oil). Along with that, it would be VERY wise to keep nuclear power in one place at a power plant, not cruising down the highway at 70mph.

AFCommuter

Okay I expected the hostility given your previous posts but I don't see how you get a government conspiracy out of what I was saying, unless you equate oil companies and car manufacturers to the government then you have more problems than I thought.

Anyway if you actually followed the link I put out there it is showing you that there are people that are working on the very things you were suggesting. My comments about the cost ratio were not meant as a discourager but rather an encourager I was implying that it would take people getting off their lazy butts and doing something about it. You are a textbook example of the instant gratification epidemic that has struck the American people. You probably expect that there is a diet pill being covered up by the government that would magically drop you down to 6% body fat overnight but they're keeping it from you so they can point and laugh.

The very example of American enginuity that you are citing is being practiced by the people in this forum every day. I believe there was one individual that has a 23 mile commute that drives halfway and bikes the rest of the way in saving 1/2 of the commute in gas.

Bottom Line is that the only way to force change is to hit the companies where it hurts, their profits, it's capitalism at it's simplist. If we no longer demand something it will go away (or fade into the background e.g. pet rocks) and be replaced by something else. As Hybrid sales surge automakers are converting their staple cars (Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Toyota Highlander, etc...) to Hybrid and reducing the number of non-hybrid...it's really quite simple.

So I am not a nay-sayer...I am saying that it is YOU that has to affect change not just whine about why it's not happening...just this morning a co-worker of mine saw that I rode in and is now considering commuting as well. Good habits are just as contagious as bad habits.

Walkafire

Yesterday's newspaper said the Colorado State average for gas = $2.45

edp773

On the CBS early news this morning, a news clip was shown on how people are dealing with the high price of gas in San Francisco. The reporter stated "Even the Lance effect," showing commuters on bikes. Because it was a short scene, and my glasses weren't on, I could not tell if they were new commuters.
If they are new commuters, think of the positives. More people commuting equals more attention. More attention should equal more consideration. Ideally this should lead to more bike lanes and laws.
If their commuting is short lived, hopefully, they will be better drivers around cyclists. Maybe I am too optomistic.

recursive

So... you think that there is an infinite amount of oil in the earth? Let's see... Therefore, the earth must be infinitely large to contain it. Therefore, there is an infinite amount of undiscovered terrain on the earth.


Who wants to go exploring?

pcrx

I think people (as a whole) are morons and will continue to drive the planet into the crapper if it is at all possible and at any cost - even their own kids futures will be mortgaged off for the luxury of tooling down the "freeway" at 20mph alone in their SUV's.

Just my .02

skijoring

Semantics is a fun, new game that Milton-Bradley would like to market to children of all ages.


People tend to forget that you can't just stick a straw in the ground and turn on a reverse-flow pump to extract the oil. The 'easy' sources have all been found, and the cost will go up to extract oil from shale, or transport it from the Alaskan steppe (if any is found). Or we can tie the cost of oil to the cost of fighting wars against 'extremists' in places like Mexico, Venezuela etc.

Sigh.

RocketsRedglare

Heres my take on the high price of petroleum, and this is what happens when you elect oil people into office.

A few years ago, congress authorized drilling alaska, and other remote national wildlife reserves. At the time petroleum was relatively cheap, so the cost of exploration, drilling and trasportation would be prohibitively high. Add in the unpopular war in Iraq (which failed to pay for itself by using Iraqi oil reserves), the convenient shut-down of refineries for "scheduled maintenance", plus China discovering capitlaism and emerging as new big time petroleum consumer/competitor for petroleum products which conveniently drives up the price of oil to over $60/barrel.

Guess what? It now becomes profitable to drill and exploit distant reserves.