To put this another way, you can obviously save money vs. a fancy car by biking. However, if you are broke, you need to be prepared to pedal a lot of miles (thousands) on an inexpensive bike to save enough money compared to the beater car you would otherwise be driving to make it worthwhile.

• My short commute is only 4 miles/day. I figure I will do that 4 days/week = 16 miles/week = 720 miles/year (assumes 45 weeks' worth of bike commuting)
• I do at least one grocery trip per week, which is another 4 miles x 45 = 180 miles/yr
• 180 + 720 = 900 mi/yr
• My car gets 25 mpg around town.
• 900 mi/yr ÷ 25 mi/gal = 36 gallons of gas
• 36 gallons of gas x $3/gallon = $108 yr saved just in gas.
• ↑ Savings would be a LOT more for longer commutes.

What if we eliminate a typical $600/mo car payment too?

...then about $100/mo for insuring the car? Maintenance on the car vs. that of the bike.

Car upkeep would be near zero for those first 5 years on a new car with the big payment, but beaters start to cost that money again; depends on how good your beater is.

By all means, do your own numbers, but be realistic. A nice bike or eBike is easy to justify vs. a car, even a paid-for beater car.

True, IF the nice bike or eBike purchase is the catalyst for eliminating the typical $600/mo car payment and the other high dollar fixed costs of ownership. Otherwise the savings are relative chicken feed, as in your example of $108/year in fuel costs; that amount of savings is contingent on the bike purchaser having zero requirements for any transportation other than commuting or shopping by bicycle or walking, as well as no need to arrange to take passengers, travel when under the weather (literally or figuratively) or transport larger packages or luggage.

My personal values for a relatively new car (6k miles) run in a typical UK way ... comes to $0.39/mi of about 75% of it's life (6k miles to 163k miles).

My bike commuting seems to run around $0.23/mi including total costs of $777 over 521 commutes and 3430 mi.

There is much more life in the bicycle left but the family grew (and associated hardware, lights still work on my sons bike after 12 years, helmet still fits, locks still work, some tyre and parts have worn out though).

I could've bought a box bike for like $2000 and I think the costs would be the same then (around $0.40/mi or so).

Moving round is expensive in Europe (fuel, public transport (subsidised with a nearly 60% tax/pension rate that I'm in), planes/boats/hovercraft, etc...))

So, I'm OK with that as the only way to cut expense is to do nothing.

I suppose the wildcard for that bolded part is: "What about an electric cargo bike?"
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1e96183c8.jpeg
Lectric XPedition: $1700 (stock photo)

Yeah, that doesn't address "Under the weather". One would have to fully commit and get rain gear. Of course a fellow would be sick a lot less often if he bike commuted vs. car. ← I've found this to be true anecdotally, but I've read others saying it too. Now when I get a simple cold, I stay home and really relish the sick day. ;)

one of the mums at the nursery uses this ... but the price really puts me off £2199 or so.

https://powabyke.com/product/revom-ecargo-2-3/

they do ride full year and have no car, which does cover the cost, but it's too pricey to me.

that's a month (or more travelling around SE Asia).

Something that frustrates me - the cargo bike just brought it to mind - is that even something dumb like the local elementary school can't seem to be bike friendly. The "hug and go" lane is probably half the kids if I had to guess and the other half is on foot. If someone brought their kids on a long tail - there's usually two or three - they can filter up through the drop zone. Bikes for the kids are not discouraged per se but well-meaning rules make them a pain. They have to walk their bikes about a block starting from the outer end of the crosswalk. The school fenced the campus three or four years ago due to hobos coming through at all hours, and now the riders have to come in a different gate by the office, and the racks are nowhere near any open gate. On the whole to me it seems they have added enough problems at the destination it becomes more of a load on the kids, both with added steps, and socially singled-out, than just walking. There are maybe less than two dozen on a given day riding bikes, out of probably something like five hundred kids. In one of the most bike-able places in the country. I know the share of bikes is a lot bigger at the middle school but it's nearly three miles and I don't really think my kids are going to hack it every day if there's a bus available

holy, does that sound convoluted.

we simply have a staff member watching the gate to the playground, so no children escape and no adults enter without children. you quickly learn the few hundred people you see every morning and evening anyway.

180 children and usually at least 180 or more parents just enter the playground when it opens at 0835 until the (literal) bell is rung by hand (0845) and then everyone leaves by (0850-0855) when the gate is locked shut. Parents talk with teachers and with each other, etc... There's usually about 60 siblings as well (so about 300-400 people in there mixing around). Usually about 10-15 bicycles are ridden into the same playground behind the school (centre right of photo) with rear seat or are box bikes. Probably around 60-80 child on scooters or bikes. There's a day storage with around 60-80 child moving objects (scooters, bikes, skateboards, etc...) all thrown in a locked area through the school day. Doesn't seem to be any theft. There's a WhatsApp ground with a few hundred people if someone picks up the wrong implement and it usually gets sorted. Just keeping it simple.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...19f1fa5864.jpg

Not really very, they know how to do it long since. But getting the same dig every day for years gets discouraging, you know? It's a 10 min walk or a 2 min ride down from our house to the crosswalk - for an adult anyhow, double that for a little kid. They have to dismount and walk the white line, up about a 10 ft rise banging their handlebars on the wheelchair rails to the not-propped-open office gate where the handicap busses drop off, through a hundred kindergartners and their moms, around the kindergarten to the bike rack (circled), past the crossing lady, the handicap bus lady, and maybe a kindergarten teacher inside each telling them they can't ride here. And then the classrooms for big kids aren't near the racks. Yellow line is the walk from the drop zone. Kids just walk in from the car and don't have to worry about navigating anything - all the hassle is dumped on the adults navigating the traffic jam. Pink X used to be a gate that went right to the racks, but is now a fence, which is extra frustrating

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e595641fd0.png

There may be serious problems with electric cargo bike friendliness at the home end of dependency on an electric cargo bike: it's size and bulk, and charging requirements.

Its size limits its use to owners with the ability to store and charge it at ground level, presumably a garage or secured ground level storage area; stairs seem to be only for strongmen acrobats, elevators are a maybe in some locations but those same apartment houses probably do not permit indoor charging of ebikes; overnight parking on city street sounds iffy for security purposes as well as charging logistics.

I used to commute from my B&B accommodation to the office as I wanted the exercise, at most 2 miles. I bought a Mezzo D9 folding bike for this which fitted easily in my car for the 170 mile trip to the office.
The route from my B&B to the office was a great ride past a castle, through the grounds withthe squirrels avoiding most of the local traffic. After Covid, I have worked from home but I hope to return to the main office later this year. Time to take my bike down to South Wales again!:speedy:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...252b48e72e.jpg
Caldicot castle - I rode past this on that path every day.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8a4b0d4252.jpg
My Mezzo D9 bike stores away well under my desk
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...090f010975.jpg
This is 2 minutes away from the office so a nice way back home at the end of the day next to the Severn Estuary

I looked at it back when the kids were preschool / daycare age and didn't get one. It wasn't going to eliminate a car, for sure, and a preschooler and two toddlers is a lot to manage.

We moved over here in about 2017. It's close enough to the grade school to walk. We send them on bikes anyhow as we want them to get used to the idea it's not a special expedition to just ride your bike a mile when they get to middle school age.

The battery packs quickly detach with a keyed lock. Bike stays downstairs/outside; batteries come inside for charging and theft deterrence. The battery packs have charging jacks right in their sides.

Darth: Yes, I think 3 kids make it not an attractive option any more. Yours are all pretty close in age, too, so it's not like the bigger one would be riding alone.

Carrying detachable batteries inside is certainly better than attached to a bulky cargo e-bike, assuming that charging them indoors is not a fire hazard E-bike fires .

Storing cargo bikes "downstairs" or outside may still be an undesirable situation for those without an adequate secure ground level location for overnight or longer storage in many if not most urban areas where cargo bikes might otherwise provide a practical alternate means of transportation

My ideal bike is a commuter. Tern do some really nice machines in the 'car replacement' category of electric utility machine. One big issue I'd have with the carrying people on the back, is convincing them to want to do it. Many of them would be affronted to be seen on one - sadly. But these people also think one is crazy to choose a bike to commute over cars. I'd imagine many of you, outside of your cycling circles, might have the same barrier.

Hard to justify along with a car and other expenses for those on a modest income. I for one don't like having things I don't regularly use of any value but an eBike, I think I'd need to be commuting at least to work every day of the week and then some.

My commute will replace the car hopefully as soon as next week... 3.5 miles one way, 3.5 miles back. Hardly a tour but choosing that and not a warm comfortably Lexus, even on a cold blue-sky British summer morning will still take a tonne of willpower. Hoping it I manage this, the endorphins will make the rest of the commitment in other seasons come a bit easier. Only then can I think about a stunning utility commuter and getting rid of the car altogether.

Are you in Belfast? How common are bike commuters there? Here in NYC, I think more than 1% of commuting trips are by bike. That sounds tiny, but cyclists are very visible compared with the millions who travel on the underground subway trains. Cycling has become more common here in recent years. It is so common that seeing someone wearing or carrying a helmet while NOT on a bike no longer turns heads. I can go wherever I go carrying a helmet, and this tells people how I arrived, and no one raises an eyebrow anymore. That's a change.

So if you become a bike commuter, you will be among the people who cause this change of attitude. I think if you stick with it long enough, you will see the change I've seen.

The weather can be a hindrance, but it's also possible to build techniques for dealing with it as well as for building a tolerance to it. We also have a pretty bad climate here. Winter is cold-ish and wet and windy. Sometimes we get snow and ice but less frequently now that the climate has changed. I ride all through the winter. I don't ride every day, but I ride every month and at least one day a week for all but one or two weeks. Here, the coldest week is usually the third week in January, and I might skip riding that week.

I keep track of what clothing works in which kinds of conditions so that am prepared for most kinds of weather.

Other side, Londonderry! There are actually a lot about. It's gotten to the point sitting at home, looking out the window in the evenings one or two will pass by in the hi-vis / helmet on. When I go for walks at lunch time in the city I also am passed by what I'd say is more utility / commuting cyclists on the shared paths. I always joke with my gf "those people are living my dream!" haha Also, this is much more positive than a decade ago where you'd see groups of brightly coloured road cyclists (real enthusiasts!) or the odd school kid on a bike.

I'd say our climates aren't too different. Same here, often dull, cloudy and raining with varying wind. This time of year does tend to have the most nice days, so I'm hoping even the less-nice dull and summer showers would be a nice soft launch to the bad weather and some not too expensive gear investment (as needed) to cope with it.

IF.. I could make this work, and IF I can keep it up throughout winter (January / February is actually more tough than December here) I'd love to invest in a serious machine with battery power.

I used to get caught up in trying to find the perfect bike, trying to justify it (usually by trying to justify selling the car) and ending up with a list of cycling clothing in the hundreds with no real experience of the materials / brands etc. These made me fed up thinking about it all and giving up over the years. This time it's... hands cold and wet? Today I'll buy some gloves - one step at a time.

Sheepskin gloves are amazing, and Im guessing you might be able to find them without much trouble in your part of the world? Our hands all different, but for me the same pair was good from well below freezing to I want to say 50ish, in all precipitation conditions, even left out accidentally in the rain near freezing while working all day.

Mine is about a mile each way but people still thing I'm weird for going by bike. It's often faster biking rather than driving!

A mile by bike is weird? Where are you? Driving and cycling seem like too much trouble for that distance. I would probably walk it.

I go to two different gyms, one is seven miles away the other is 1/4-mile away. Obviously I ride my bike to the 7-mile gym, but I walk to the 1/4-mile gym, because it's just too much of a trouble getting the bike out for a measly 400-meters.

Which did get me thinking. Would I walk if it were a 1/3, 1/2, 3/4 or a whole mile away...I don't know the answer to that question.

Although, on two recent occasions I have gone to the Ace hardware for things to fix my garden hose. That is a 1/2-mile away, so I jogged it, but that was not on a continual basis, but if it were I'd probably just keep jogging it, but what if it were.....




:foo:

I wouldn't walk more than one city block if I had my bicycle available, not even for a Camel!

I just started commuting 3 miles to and from my shop a few weeks ago and I’ve lost 4 pounds! Gonna try to work up to 12 miles a week…

When I did work in an office and commuted, it was 5 miles each way. Mostly flat with downhill section at the end so I didn't get too sweaty. Coming back there's the hill to tackle but I'm in less of a hurry. I wore smart casual, didn't change clothes or showered.

Much of middle America considers the idea of walking or biking for transportation as extremist.

In a past economic downturn, a colleague told me in a shaky voice that in the new economy there would be no tolerance for such frivolous activities as bicycling to work. He felt, evidently, that in serious times, serious men drive serious V-8 powered mustangs the 1.5 miles to work.