Jarery

Posted a similar question over on the cyclocross forum, hope i dont get in trouble for cross posting.

I recently decided to upgrade my hybrid to a sport touring bike. So i ordered a Marinoni Ciclo.

Then i decided one day to try comuting to work. well guess what, i love commuting to work. So my focus for cycling has just done a 180. (see my post titled "Dumb Cyclist" to see how i got suckered into commuting)

I was doing 2 hours ride a night after work. Which is why i wanted a sport touring. Its as fast, snooth and comfy a bike i can think of and still take fenders and a pannier. I wont be racing, just fitness, leisure, enjoyment.

They have not started on my frame yet so i can change it to their cross frame if i wish.

So theirs my big dilema. Do i stay with the sport tour or switch to the cross. I wont be touring, i wont be x racing. I will be doing 50k a day commute, 5 days a week, year round. Vancouver weather means i just need rain gear I would also be doing a few weekend centuries in the summer, and occasional group rides.

So my priorities in order would be
-50k daily commute round trip, with 1500-2000 ft hills total each leg
-group rides
-centuries

What differences would i be seeing ? Both are steel frames with carbon fork, and i would be getting a veloce group. Both can have disk brakes mounted, along with a rear rack and fenders. Would the sport tour be more comfy on the century and faster on the group rides?

Or would both be fine, with the cross able to turn faster in the urban nightmare of traffic and easier bunny hopping of all the small smart cars?

Anyone use their cross on centuries and group rides and notice much of a slow down compared to a regular road bike?

https://www.marinoni.qc.ca/html/2005/05_en_ciclo.asp

https://www.marinoni.qc.ca/html/2005/05_en_fango.asp

https://www.marinoni.qc.ca/html/2005/05_en_geometrie.asp here is the geometry differences.

Sorry for asking whats most likely been asked a bazillion times. But spending a couple grand on a bike is a lot for me, i just want to make sure i make the best purchase.

HiYoSilver

Biggest priorities should be:

1. disc brakes, so you have zero problems in the rain
2. good gearing, so you can handle the hills. I don't know what shape you are in. Here are some popular combos:
28-42-54 12..27 -- for easiest to make smaller shifts on climbs
22-42-52 x..32 -- for more range and moderate shifts on climbs
30-42-52 11..24 -- for good range at cost of wider shift points on climbs, this is usually default
3. good tires with flat protection. If good streets, you'll be able to ride with 700x23 or x25 tires.
If fair to poor streets, you'll want x28 or x35 tires.

How I would decide:
1. is disc brake available? if not, don't consider. if so, continue
2. what size tires will bike take and what size do I need for local streets?
3. is bike designed to carry my stuff on commute?
4. how much does the full bike weigh?
5. how did the bike hold up for a 4 mile test ride?
etc...

have fun and make LBS work for your zillion by reviewing all the options for you prior to purchase.

Jarery

1. is disc brake available? if not, don't consider. if so, continue
2. what size tires will bike take and what size do I need for local streets?
3. is bike designed to carry my stuff on commute?
4. how much does the full bike weigh?
5. how did the bike hold up for a 4 mile test ride?

---------------------------------------------------------------

1) both can have disc brake brazeons added
2) the sport tour will take up 25 with fenders, the cross 35 with fenders
3) both can take a rear rack which will allow me my panniers and/or trunk
4) Sport tour around 20 lbs, Cross about 22 lbs.
5) both are custom built so cant test either

I guess its a choice between longer chainstays/wheelbase on the tour vs higher bb, wider tire options, and an extra lb or 2 on the cross.

CBBaron

I would want atleast room for 28 tires with fenders, in my case I want more like 35+ so I can fit studded snow tires for winter. The longer chainstays will give you better heel clearance with your panniers when loaded for touring. If your only doing light touring its probably not a big deal but if you want to do self contained your probably want the longer chainstays. I'd probably go with more of a touring geometry. Most tourers like the Trek 520 can handle wide tires and fenders and have plenty of room for panniers. 1 or 2 pounds won't make much difference once you are loaded up unless you are a very light rider. Look at the thread about the porker commuter bikes. Many have bikes that weigh 40-50lbs loaded.
Craig

Jarery

Good points.

I wont be doing any loaded touring. If i do ever want to go for a weekend, my visa will be coming with me and not a tent.

I already have a bike thats 40 lbs loaded for my commute, so i agree, i wont notice the 1-2 lb difference...much.

Where my inexperiance comes, and why im asking, would be the tire size differance, bb height difference, and riding position difference between the two. Since I've only ridden a hybrid I dont know how much of a factor each will play.


-tourer only able to take a 25 wide tire with a fender. Is that enough ? I currently have 35's on my hybrid. Not because thats what i prefer, but thats what it came with, i dont know any different. Is commuting on a 25 much faster than on say a 32 ? Am i gonna shave off 1 min over the course of an hour ? Whats the 'prefered' tire size for an hour commute on city streets? It never snows here, just rains.

-Will i notice the more upright position of the cross bike over the tour and be slower because of it ?

-Will the higher bb of the cross bike make the bike feel more squirly and less stable ?

Anyways, thanks for all the input

late

Hi.
1) Disc brakes? I wouldn't, and I have been bike touring on and off for over 30 years. Excess weight.
2) 28c is a minimum IMHO. I have been using a 27c (that's larger than some 28c tires) for the last couple years. It's the Rivendell Ruffy Tuffy and it's a real nice tire. But for touring and commuting I want a tire that gives me a flat every couple of years. I have been getting a flat a year with the Rivendells. I am replacing them with Conti TT 2000 32c.

If you can live with a few flats, 28c is a nice size. You can get tires close to 300 grams that feel lively. If you want comfort and reliability, then go larger. Although the Rivendell at 85-90 psi is pretty comfy.
3) Skip the cross frame. I got a titanium touring/cyclocross frame
a few years ago. It's sitting naked in my cellar. May become a winter bike someday. The bottom bracket is too high and the chainstays are too freaking short. Get a sport frame. That's what I use now. It's fine for light touring.

tibikefor2

I agree with CBBaron about being able to put wider tires on the bike. The nokian studded tires 700X35 are great tire for icy days. The nokians fit under my fenders on my Lemond Propad which is a cross bike.

I find riding on ice a hoot.

Daily Commute

I did a solo century on my Cross Check last year. It was fine. It also works great for commuting. Heel strike could be a problem if you have big feet, but my panniers work fine when I push them to the back of the rack. A touring bike will make you more upright, which is good or bad depending on what you want.

HiYoSilver

Explain more please.

1. What's wrong with higher BB? Does the center of gravity change that much or what?

2. Chainstays are too short for what? I thought Orbied had a mounting system so you could rotate the panniers when the stays are short.

3. What is the wheelbase of your frame, isn't it about 99?

HiYoSilver

Again disagree. Weight is less than a pound. This is vancouver. 1.4 to 7 inches of rain a month!!! Even if it were 5 lbs of weight, that would be silly when you're on the ground cause you couldn't stop in time.

late

--It's an Airborne Carpe Diem. I don't remember what the wheelbase is.--

HiYoSilver

Interesting info re CD:
Airborne no longer available in US, only Euro. But interesting info:
https://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/fr...x.aspx#reviews

https://www.airbornecycles.com/airbor...ore/cdbike.asp
5 stars for sport touring/loaded touring/cyclocross

wheelbase between 101.2..107 cm
stays: 42.5cm, 16 3/4 in.

My touring stays are 36cm, 18 inches. Does 1 1/4 inch make that much difference?

I don't understand how to read bike geometry. I recently road two bikes with this geometry:
litespeed ultimate 59
stays: 39.3
base: 98.3
BB drop: 6.8
seat tube angle: 73d
head tube angle: 73d
ttube: 57.5

giant fcr 2
stays: 41.9
base: 101.8 cm
seat angle: 73d
head angle: 73d
ttube: 56.9cm

My bike:
stays: 42.5
base: 107.2
BB drop: 7.6
seat angle: 73
head angle: 71
ttube: 58.4

My impression of litespeed, wonderful ride quick and precise. The FCR keep on surprising me and going further to the side than I wanted it to. I don't know if I was using steering with body english or not. Sometime I would like to get a TI bike and definitely want a ride more like current bike or litespeed and not like the FCR. I just don't know what the key geometry data that tells what the ride will be like.

I also don't understand how shorter chainstays would make for worst ride. What is the geometry of your current bike that you like?

Jarery

Large tires for ice and snow is not a concern, all we get is rain. Lots and lots of rain.

So i wont need studs or wide snow tires. I just need tires to do an hour worth of city street driving. Are 25's fine ? Or will i need wider for comfort and flat protection ?

Discs, i'm almost sold on them, i live in a rain forest in mountains. Steep 10-20% grades, pouring rain, morning rush hour, blind drivers = disc brakes.

The bottom bracket height, chainstay length, and wheelbase along with the wheel sizes are still my concern as to which would prove the best for commuting.

Do i want shorter wheelbase/chainstays with a higher bb and 32's or do i want the long wheelbase low bb with 25's ? Thats where im confused as to which advantages one has over the other and which disadvantages.

Nightshade

Best , most common sense response yet. The thread on porkers ( mine is one of them) really speaks
to the nuts and bolts of beating a bike everyday commuting. Like any machine if it's delicate you'll
break it. That's why simple durable steel framed bikes are the best commuters with the touring bike
being the most useful as it's made to.........go the distance.

One other point .......
I sure hope that the carbon fork holds up for you, mate. I know I'd never ride on anything but steel
forks on my everyday commuter. Roads can beat bikes up something terrible at times.

late

I just need tires to do an hour worth of city street driving. Are 25's fine ? Or will i need wider for comfort and flat protection ?

--Commuting is daily abuse. Glass, weird metal fragments, thorns, you name it.
I hate being late. Larger means loewer preesure which by itself translates into fewer flats. In addition, the really tough touring tires are simply more rugged
than any road tire that has a decent ride quality. --

Discs, i'm almost sold on them, i live in a rain forest in mountains. Steep 10-20% grades, pouring rain, morning rush hour, blind drivers = disc brakes.

--good idea. This would also make me want to go with larger tires.--

The bottom bracket height, chainstay length, and wheelbase along with the wheel sizes are still my concern as to which would prove the best for commuting.

Do i want shorter wheelbase/chainstays with a higher bb and 32's or do i want the long wheelbase low bb with 25's ? Thats where im confused as to which advantages one has over the other and which disadvantages.

--If you are asking me, I would say neither of them. I'd get something like what I have. Which is a bike with a low BB and the ability to take 28c tires AND a fender. Personally, on a 20% grade, I'd think of 32c as a minimum.--

michaelnel

20%, really? The Fillmore Street hill in the San Francisco Grand Prix is 18% and it kills pro riders. Are you sure about that 20%?

jagged

If you have a "smooth, comfy bike" that you are comfortable riding for two hours at a time, then stop right there; you've got an excellent commuter. If you enjoy riding it, and it can take fenders, you are all set. If you have any doubts about the bike you are supposed to buy, you should be able to answer your questions with a test ride.

For many manufacturers, the difference between a "touring" and a "cross" frame is marketing. For others, cross frames are a little higher off the ground, to avoid chips from gravel and to make it easier to pick the bike up and carry it. Neither of these traits is especially useful for a commuter. Cross and touring bikes are both good for commuting.

As for winter riding, most people get a second beater bike for that. Seriously; you do not want to subject your brand-new bike to salt, snow, mud, and the inevitable crashes.

HiYoSilver

I don't think there is that much difference between a 25, or 30 or 32 tire. There may be a slight difference in the rim. Wide rims can't go smaller than 28 and thin rims can't go larger than 25. The key is to get either one of the armadillo or one of the marathon tires with kelvar so you don't have to worry about flats.

A 2 hour ride is a long ride. There are 2 different schools of thought. One says you want the lightest bike, i.e. sport road or performance road bike. The other school says, hey this is long, lightness doesn't matter with that much pounding as much as comfort,i.e. cyclocross or touring bike. If it were I and I had a 70 minute or less commute, I'd go performance road bike. With your distance, I would go with cyclocross or touring so I could use the wider tires and use their shock absorbing abilities to help me feel better at the end of the ride.

If you can afford it, a cool commute bike might be the Litespeed Blue Ridge, it's TI so no corrosion, very light and yet designed for longer distances. Only disadvantage is it has regular brakes, but you should be able to custom order one like it with disc brakes.
I don't know about the merlin line, but they also have a great rep.

late

Well,
I have ridden most common sizes of tire from 23c to 40c.
It depends on the tire, and a lot. But in general the pressure gets lower and the ride gets sweeter as you go bigger. I wish Hutchinson
still made their Profile U.

Daily Commute

I noticed a big difference when I swtiched from 28's to 32's. The 32's felt much, much slower. But the ride was smoother. It's all about trade-offs.

Jarery

"20%, really? The Fillmore Street hill in the San Francisco Grand Prix is 18% and it kills pro riders. Are you sure about that 20%?"

Nope, im not sure. Its 500-600 ft or so climb in 0.7 km. I live on the side of a hill, one road up the hill has a sign at the bottom. The sign states that this was Rick Hansens steepest climb in his trip around the world. The second steepest was parts of the great wall of china. (Rick Hansen 'Man In Motion' he went around the world in his wheelchair to raise money) I take that road down, and an easier route back up.

""As for winter riding, most people get a second beater bike for that. Seriously; you do not want to subject your brand-new bike to salt, snow, mud, and the inevitable crashes.""

Well, i thought about that. A lot. Im going to be riding 250k a week, 2 hours a day, 5 days a week. So im going to be spending a lot of time on it, i may as well like it. Doesnt make sense to me to have a $2,000 bike sitting in the garage that i ride 1/10 the time. So yes, my expensive bike will be my commuter. If it wears out in 2 years, i get to upgrade

CBBaron

My current bikes have 28mm tires without fenders or 23mm with. The 28s ride much better and give me more stability with rough pavement and especially pavement cracks. I am also very concerned I will pince flat the 23s even though it hasn't happened. I don't really notice much difference in speed but both are kevlar belted so neither are "fast". Thats why I'm looking at getting a bike with better clearance so I can fit my 28s with fenders for wet weather and 35 studded for snow.
For commuting a lower BB will make it easier to put a foot down and give a little better handling but you will have to be more careful about pedaling in turns. A custom builder should be able to make a sport tourer with long reach caliper brakes. This should give enough clearance for 28 or 30mm tires with fenders. If I didn't have to deal with snow I would probably be looking at something like an Ant Light Roadster ( https://www.antbikemike.com/lr.html ), it sounds like you want something more like the Club Racer ( https://www.antbikemike.com/clubracing.html ).
Craig

tom cotter

My Trek 520 came equipped with 35 cm tires. I put SKS fenders on it and spent months trying to adjust the fenders to get rid of the tire rub. I finally gave up and put 28s on. They don't ride nearly as well, but no rubs. 32cm would work as well.