Do solid core tires ever make sense?
11-02-05, 12:22 PM
#1
Portland Fred
Thread Starter
Do solid core tires ever make sense?
Can anybody who rides significant distances recommend these, or should I not even think about them?
I commute about 9000 miles/yr on roads of every kind, though most of this distance is alongside highways. The amount of debris is incredible, and I hit glass, metal debris, and all kinds of crud in the dark (last week, I rode into a bed spring)
During the daylight months, things aren't too bad. However, for 6 months of the year, part or all of my commute is in darkness and I'm constantly getting flats because headlights absolutely blind me and my 10 watt light can only do so much for showing debris on wet, dark roads. In my worst 7 day span ever, I got 8 flats, only two of them my fault (pinch and failure to remove all debris)
Finding and extracting glass shards in the dark alongside a busy highway when you're drenched and so cold you can't feel your hands is a real pain so I'm investigating other options.
I ride a steel touring bike with 36 spoke wheels on 700x28 Nimbus Armadillos at 100psi. The setup handles abuse pretty well and I go through about 6 tires per year.
I've heard bad things about solid core, but might they make sense for me? I don't care about weight since I'm already loaded down (plus I own a racing bike for recreational rides). I DO care about speed. Normally, I maintain 18-20mph, and my commute is long enough that losing over 1mph would not be acceptable. In addition, I like to stand for a few miles to keep myself conditioned for climbs, so I need tires that are compatible with a bit of pedal mashing.
The only people I've known to use and like solid core only rode short distances at low speed. Has anyone out there tried riding them for months on end at a reasonable pace? Thanks,
I commute about 9000 miles/yr on roads of every kind, though most of this distance is alongside highways. The amount of debris is incredible, and I hit glass, metal debris, and all kinds of crud in the dark (last week, I rode into a bed spring)
During the daylight months, things aren't too bad. However, for 6 months of the year, part or all of my commute is in darkness and I'm constantly getting flats because headlights absolutely blind me and my 10 watt light can only do so much for showing debris on wet, dark roads. In my worst 7 day span ever, I got 8 flats, only two of them my fault (pinch and failure to remove all debris)
Finding and extracting glass shards in the dark alongside a busy highway when you're drenched and so cold you can't feel your hands is a real pain so I'm investigating other options.
I ride a steel touring bike with 36 spoke wheels on 700x28 Nimbus Armadillos at 100psi. The setup handles abuse pretty well and I go through about 6 tires per year.
I've heard bad things about solid core, but might they make sense for me? I don't care about weight since I'm already loaded down (plus I own a racing bike for recreational rides). I DO care about speed. Normally, I maintain 18-20mph, and my commute is long enough that losing over 1mph would not be acceptable. In addition, I like to stand for a few miles to keep myself conditioned for climbs, so I need tires that are compatible with a bit of pedal mashing.
The only people I've known to use and like solid core only rode short distances at low speed. Has anyone out there tried riding them for months on end at a reasonable pace? Thanks,
11-02-05, 12:38 PM
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I have one on the rear of my motorbike. It holds up well, but weighs a ton and the handling suffered a little bit. If it wasn't being driven by a motor instead of my legs I wouldn't be using it.
11-02-05, 12:44 PM
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Everything I have read about solid core tires is pretty consistent - don't bother. why dont you get better lights? a 35 or 40 watt lighting system is a good idea anyway and should solve your problem since you say the problem doesn't happen during the day. check the total geekiness thread for homebrew ideas or the lighting recommendations thread for good (though expensive) store-bought.
11-02-05, 01:42 PM
#4
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You only get 1500 miles out of an Armadillo tire? Is that because of wear or holes through them? I'm just curious because (as I've mentioned in many other threads) I have over 3000 miles on one pair (700 x 25, the rear is very worn but still flat free) and close to 2000 on the other (26" x 1.5", showing very little wear so far). Your mileage seems very low unless your roads are really that bad. If the shoulder/bike lane is that dirty, maybe try riding further left? With your kind of mileage, my guess is you've tried pretty much everything though.
11-02-05, 02:39 PM
#5
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You might try Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires. I went from a flat every 200 miles to none (so far) over 5,000 miles. There are several firms that make tires that are more durable than the Armadillos. In addition to the Marathon Plus, there is the Continental Security.
One person posted to the Icebike list that solid urethane tires have very much less adhesion in the wet than do normal rubber tires. That would seem to be a significant argument against them.
Paul
One person posted to the Icebike list that solid urethane tires have very much less adhesion in the wet than do normal rubber tires. That would seem to be a significant argument against them.
Paul
11-02-05, 03:32 PM
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Get a pair and try them yourself. I did. The seller had a money back guarantee if not satisfied. I was out the shipping both ways but I have my own data now.
They make sense if avoiding flats is more important to you than the performance cost.
It was not for me.
They make sense if avoiding flats is more important to you than the performance cost.
It was not for me.
11-02-05, 03:34 PM
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You only get 1500 miles out of an Armadillo tire?
I read it like he is getting 3000 miles out of the tires. 6 tires is 3 sets of tires, or one set of tires every 3000 miles. Seems about right to me. I have about 1,400 on my armadillos now, not even close to being worn.
I read it like he is getting 3000 miles out of the tires. 6 tires is 3 sets of tires, or one set of tires every 3000 miles. Seems about right to me. I have about 1,400 on my armadillos now, not even close to being worn.
11-02-05, 04:16 PM
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Include Tuffo strips and thick inner tubes. Inspect tires for debris in the tread when you get home.
11-02-05, 05:39 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by pricklycommute
You only get 1500 miles out of an Armadillo tire?
I read it like he is getting 3000 miles out of the tires. 6 tires is 3 sets of tires, or one set of tires every 3000 miles. Seems about right to me. I have about 1,400 on my armadillos now, not even close to being worn.
I read it like he is getting 3000 miles out of the tires. 6 tires is 3 sets of tires, or one set of tires every 3000 miles. Seems about right to me. I have about 1,400 on my armadillos now, not even close to being worn.
11-02-05, 05:43 PM
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i used to have solid rubber tire inserts on an old mtn bike. i thought it was awesome. if it's not a performance bike i would recommend them. although i didn't use the bike for anything more than a 2 mile commute to school and back.
11-02-05, 05:44 PM
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Raiyn must be spinning in his grave...
11-02-05, 06:35 PM
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In addition to your kevlar-belted tires... add tuffy tire-liners. And slime-filled tubes or thicker-rubber type tubes.
11-02-05, 06:54 PM
#13
Portland Fred
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by PaulH
You might try Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires. I went from a flat every 200 miles to none (so far) over 5,000 miles. There are several firms that make tires that are more durable than the Armadillos. In addition to the Marathon Plus, there is the Continental Security.
BTW, just for clarity's sake, I typically get about 3000 miles out of an Armadillo. I've gotten as high as 6,000 but I sometimes get much less than 3,000. When I change tires, it is almost always because the tires are riddled with cuts and holes that go all the way through.
The roads I must ride are exceptional in both the amount of traffic they carry and the debris on them. When I ride recreationally, I take normal roads and don't have these problems (organized rides are simply heaven for me). Riding further left is unfortunately not feasible due to traffic conditions.
11-03-05, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by slvoid
Raiyn must be spinning in his grave...
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_a.html#airless
Airless Tires
Of all the inventions that came out of the bicycle industry, probably none is as important and useful as Dr. Dunlop's pneumatic tire.
Airless tires have been obsolete for over a century, but crackpot "inventors" keep trying to bring them back. They are heavy and slow. They give a harsh ride and poor high-speed cornering on rough surfaces. They are also likely to cause wheel damage, due to their poor cushioning ability. A pneumatic tire uses all of the air in the whole tube as a shock absorber, while foam-type "airless" tires/tubes only use the air in the immediate area of impact.
Airless tires are either made of elastomers (rubbery materials) or closed cell foams, which are rubbery materials with lots of tiny air bubbles. The better ones are foam type, becausle solid elastomers have hardly any shockabsorbency.
This sort of material has a non-linear response to compression loads: as apply a compressive load, the stiffness of the material increases as it gets squashed thinner and thinner. The beauty of pneumatic tires is that the compression is nearly linear.
A basic fact of physics is that pressure is inversely proportional to volume.
Imagine a pneumatic tire that is divided into lots of little segments so that each inch or so of tire is effectively a separate "balloon." Let's say it's 1 inch thick, and when a rider sits on the bike, the tire compresses 1/4 inch. That means the volume of the localized "baloon" is now 75% of what it was before the rider got on, so the pressure in the bubble is going to become 133% of what it was.
If the rider hits a bump that compresses the tire another 1/4 inch, the volume will be half the static value, so the pressure will be double the starting pressure.
If the rider hits a bump that compresses the tire 1/2 inch (plus the static 1/4 inch) the volume will have been reduced to 25% of the base volume, and the pressure will now be 4 times the base pressure!
"Airless" tires that use foam derive their resiliency from the bubbles in the foam, so this describes their general functioning. The bubbles are only part of the mix, though, so a 1 inch thick tire doesn't actually have an inch of air to play with before the bubbles are all compressed as far as they can go. You can only compress the bubbles so much, and the more you compress them, the harder they press back, in geometric progression.
Contrast this with a pneumatic tire, where the whole volume of air in the tire is being compressed as a unit. When you sit on the bike, the bottom part of the tire flattens out, say 1/4 inch, but this only reduces the total air volume by a fraction of a percent. Thus the pressure is nearly constant under all conditions, and the tire can be equally shock-absorbent for the full "travel" of its thickness.
It is this property of providing nearly linear response to external pressure that is the unique feature of pneumatic tires, and it is not possible for any system that doesn't have this feature to give as good ride as pneumatics do. This is why every vehicle designed for road use in the last hundred years has used pneumatic tires.
The near-linear response of pneumatic tires is not just a matter of comfort. It also improves traction at higher speeds, because they don't tend to bounce as much as harder tires do. Bouncing can cause loss of traction in high speed corners, because when the tire is airborne, it can't have any traction.
Airless tires do have their applications. They can work well either where speeds are very slow, or where surfaces are very smooth. Thus, they're pretty satisfactory for wheelchairs, especially those mainly used indoors, and also for railroad trains, roller skates, furniture casters, children's riding toys and wagons.
Airless Tires
Of all the inventions that came out of the bicycle industry, probably none is as important and useful as Dr. Dunlop's pneumatic tire.
Airless tires have been obsolete for over a century, but crackpot "inventors" keep trying to bring them back. They are heavy and slow. They give a harsh ride and poor high-speed cornering on rough surfaces. They are also likely to cause wheel damage, due to their poor cushioning ability. A pneumatic tire uses all of the air in the whole tube as a shock absorber, while foam-type "airless" tires/tubes only use the air in the immediate area of impact.
Airless tires are either made of elastomers (rubbery materials) or closed cell foams, which are rubbery materials with lots of tiny air bubbles. The better ones are foam type, becausle solid elastomers have hardly any shockabsorbency.
This sort of material has a non-linear response to compression loads: as apply a compressive load, the stiffness of the material increases as it gets squashed thinner and thinner. The beauty of pneumatic tires is that the compression is nearly linear.
A basic fact of physics is that pressure is inversely proportional to volume.
Imagine a pneumatic tire that is divided into lots of little segments so that each inch or so of tire is effectively a separate "balloon." Let's say it's 1 inch thick, and when a rider sits on the bike, the tire compresses 1/4 inch. That means the volume of the localized "baloon" is now 75% of what it was before the rider got on, so the pressure in the bubble is going to become 133% of what it was.
If the rider hits a bump that compresses the tire another 1/4 inch, the volume will be half the static value, so the pressure will be double the starting pressure.
If the rider hits a bump that compresses the tire 1/2 inch (plus the static 1/4 inch) the volume will have been reduced to 25% of the base volume, and the pressure will now be 4 times the base pressure!
"Airless" tires that use foam derive their resiliency from the bubbles in the foam, so this describes their general functioning. The bubbles are only part of the mix, though, so a 1 inch thick tire doesn't actually have an inch of air to play with before the bubbles are all compressed as far as they can go. You can only compress the bubbles so much, and the more you compress them, the harder they press back, in geometric progression.
Contrast this with a pneumatic tire, where the whole volume of air in the tire is being compressed as a unit. When you sit on the bike, the bottom part of the tire flattens out, say 1/4 inch, but this only reduces the total air volume by a fraction of a percent. Thus the pressure is nearly constant under all conditions, and the tire can be equally shock-absorbent for the full "travel" of its thickness.
It is this property of providing nearly linear response to external pressure that is the unique feature of pneumatic tires, and it is not possible for any system that doesn't have this feature to give as good ride as pneumatics do. This is why every vehicle designed for road use in the last hundred years has used pneumatic tires.
The near-linear response of pneumatic tires is not just a matter of comfort. It also improves traction at higher speeds, because they don't tend to bounce as much as harder tires do. Bouncing can cause loss of traction in high speed corners, because when the tire is airborne, it can't have any traction.
Airless tires do have their applications. They can work well either where speeds are very slow, or where surfaces are very smooth. Thus, they're pretty satisfactory for wheelchairs, especially those mainly used indoors, and also for railroad trains, roller skates, furniture casters, children's riding toys and wagons.
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11-03-05, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by banerjek
Can anybody who rides significant distances recommend these, or should I not even think about them?
I commute about 9000 miles/yr on roads of every kind, though most of this distance is alongside highways. The amount of debris is incredible, and I hit glass, metal debris, and all kinds of crud in the dark (last week, I rode into a bed spring)
During the daylight months, things aren't too bad. However, for 6 months of the year, part or all of my commute is in darkness and I'm constantly getting flats because headlights absolutely blind me and my 10 watt light can only do so much for showing debris on wet, dark roads. In my worst 7 day span ever, I got 8 flats, only two of them my fault (pinch and failure to remove all debris)
Finding and extracting glass shards in the dark alongside a busy highway when you're drenched and so cold you can't feel your hands is a real pain so I'm investigating other options.
I ride a steel touring bike with 36 spoke wheels on 700x28 Nimbus Armadillos at 100psi. The setup handles abuse pretty well and I go through about 6 tires per year.
I've heard bad things about solid core, but might they make sense for me? I don't care about weight since I'm already loaded down (plus I own a racing bike for recreational rides). I DO care about speed. Normally, I maintain 18-20mph, and my commute is long enough that losing over 1mph would not be acceptable. In addition, I like to stand for a few miles to keep myself conditioned for climbs, so I need tires that are compatible with a bit of pedal mashing.
The only people I've known to use and like solid core only rode short distances at low speed. Has anyone out there tried riding them for months on end at a reasonable pace? Thanks,
I commute about 9000 miles/yr on roads of every kind, though most of this distance is alongside highways. The amount of debris is incredible, and I hit glass, metal debris, and all kinds of crud in the dark (last week, I rode into a bed spring)
During the daylight months, things aren't too bad. However, for 6 months of the year, part or all of my commute is in darkness and I'm constantly getting flats because headlights absolutely blind me and my 10 watt light can only do so much for showing debris on wet, dark roads. In my worst 7 day span ever, I got 8 flats, only two of them my fault (pinch and failure to remove all debris)
Finding and extracting glass shards in the dark alongside a busy highway when you're drenched and so cold you can't feel your hands is a real pain so I'm investigating other options.
I ride a steel touring bike with 36 spoke wheels on 700x28 Nimbus Armadillos at 100psi. The setup handles abuse pretty well and I go through about 6 tires per year.
I've heard bad things about solid core, but might they make sense for me? I don't care about weight since I'm already loaded down (plus I own a racing bike for recreational rides). I DO care about speed. Normally, I maintain 18-20mph, and my commute is long enough that losing over 1mph would not be acceptable. In addition, I like to stand for a few miles to keep myself conditioned for climbs, so I need tires that are compatible with a bit of pedal mashing.
The only people I've known to use and like solid core only rode short distances at low speed. Has anyone out there tried riding them for months on end at a reasonable pace? Thanks,
11-03-05, 12:31 PM
#16
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for significant differences, no.
my roommate has a pair of 'em in his x-mart bike, he rides it maybe 2 miles a day, never does any maintenance on his bike, never aired his tires, and consistently rode through sharp objects.
His tires are torn up, i'm sure the new tubes have holes in them, but he's happy, because he doesn't have to change any more tubes.
my roommate has a pair of 'em in his x-mart bike, he rides it maybe 2 miles a day, never does any maintenance on his bike, never aired his tires, and consistently rode through sharp objects.
His tires are torn up, i'm sure the new tubes have holes in them, but he's happy, because he doesn't have to change any more tubes.
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11-04-05, 11:48 PM
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+1 on getting a better headlight. if your doing 9000 miles a year commuting and alot of it in the dark you owe it to yourself and your safety to spend some money on a good light system. i use the nightsun dual beam system (which i borrowed from my dad because he retired and so doesn't ride to work anymore and which he reminds me of every day). if i had to buy one i would spend the money for a HID system
11-05-05, 02:45 AM
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To avoid punctures if you're really fed up: https://www.schwalbe.com/index.pl?ber...31&details=223
Schwalbe marathon plus. Heavy, but you won't even have to pick glass out of it. It'll never make it to the innertube.
Schwalbe marathon plus. Heavy, but you won't even have to pick glass out of it. It'll never make it to the innertube.
11-05-05, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by cerewa
In addition to your kevlar-belted tires... add tuffy tire-liners. And slime-filled tubes or thicker-rubber type tubes.
11-05-05, 05:34 AM
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You are my hero! You sure do put in the miles -- you must be in great shape. I commute only 5 miles a day round trip, and I have experienced the same things you mentioned -- can't see all the crap on the side of the road until you run over it. I use Bontrager (sp?) tires. My bike shop told me they have a protective strip under the tread, which makes them three times less likely to have a flat. In addition, I have Slime plastic strips in the tire. I have gone flatless since I did this. Also, make sure your tires are inflated to the max. It the tires get low on air, they are more susceptible to punctures. I travel light. All I take is a bottle of Slime and a CO-2 cartridge. If I do have a flat, I put some slime in, spin the wheel, and pump it up. This will get you home, and the process only takes a few minutes. Some say Slime screws up your valve, but this has not been the case with me. Once the Slime is in the tube, it will continue continue to protect against flats for two years. You are doing your share to lower our dependence on foreign oil. There are 200 million cars in the U.S. If every driver commuted on a bike only 20 miles a week, we would save over 2 billion gallons a year. There should be a good bike lane on every road they build from now on. We haven't seen the end of $3 gasoline. Good riding to you! Tom McGeehan, Somerset, KY.
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"I am a true laborer. I earn that I eat, get that I wear, owe no man hate, envy no man's happiness, glad of other men's good, content with my harm." As You Like It, Act 3, Scene 2. Shakespeare.
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11-30-05, 05:47 PM
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Hello!
If you are willing to sacrifice a little ease of pedaling and a have a stiffer ride but gain the peace of mind of not having any more flats, here is the site of a solid inner tube mfg.:https://www.nomorflats.com/
If you are willing to sacrifice a little ease of pedaling and a have a stiffer ride but gain the peace of mind of not having any more flats, here is the site of a solid inner tube mfg.:https://www.nomorflats.com/
11-30-05, 06:15 PM
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To answer your question concerning solid tires: yes they make sense...on a trainer!
I happen to like the Armadillo tire; it's lighter by at least 100 grms then the Schwalbe; and in over 15,000 miles (3 years) I only had 2 flats, one from a faulty tube and the other from letting a tire wear to the cords. Whereas before (since moving to the Mojave desert area of Calif) I was averaging 2 to 5 flats a week! The best I could do was 2 flats a week and that was with a Conti Gatorskin with a Mr Tuffy and a Slime tube! I found out two things though; first, a goathead can pentrate a Mr Tuffy and a Gatorskin tire together; second, Slime tubes are CRAP for use in road tires, they do not seal past about 65psi, once the leak is sealed no matter how long it was sealed and you attempt to air up pass 65 the air pressure just blows the Slime seal out of the hole and you got a flat.
When I started using the Armadillos my LBS recommended that I use a Specialize Turbo R tube, a ultralight 65grm tube; so those were the tubes I was using and still got zero flats.
The Armadillos and the Schwalbe will be harsh riding due to their stiff sidewalls but you can soften the ride up by not putting in the max PSI on the sidewalls. I weigh 160 and only used 90 on the rear and 80 on the front with the Armadillo. The rolling resistence is not bad either; in fact the winning 4 person team (Team Action Sports) for the 2004 RAAM race used Armadillo's for the entire race. And guess what? Team Action Sports had no flats for the entire race!! It was the team captain from Team Action Sports and Action Sports in Bakersfield that got me to use the Armadillos.
I happen to like the Armadillo tire; it's lighter by at least 100 grms then the Schwalbe; and in over 15,000 miles (3 years) I only had 2 flats, one from a faulty tube and the other from letting a tire wear to the cords. Whereas before (since moving to the Mojave desert area of Calif) I was averaging 2 to 5 flats a week! The best I could do was 2 flats a week and that was with a Conti Gatorskin with a Mr Tuffy and a Slime tube! I found out two things though; first, a goathead can pentrate a Mr Tuffy and a Gatorskin tire together; second, Slime tubes are CRAP for use in road tires, they do not seal past about 65psi, once the leak is sealed no matter how long it was sealed and you attempt to air up pass 65 the air pressure just blows the Slime seal out of the hole and you got a flat.
When I started using the Armadillos my LBS recommended that I use a Specialize Turbo R tube, a ultralight 65grm tube; so those were the tubes I was using and still got zero flats.
The Armadillos and the Schwalbe will be harsh riding due to their stiff sidewalls but you can soften the ride up by not putting in the max PSI on the sidewalls. I weigh 160 and only used 90 on the rear and 80 on the front with the Armadillo. The rolling resistence is not bad either; in fact the winning 4 person team (Team Action Sports) for the 2004 RAAM race used Armadillo's for the entire race. And guess what? Team Action Sports had no flats for the entire race!! It was the team captain from Team Action Sports and Action Sports in Bakersfield that got me to use the Armadillos.
11-30-05, 07:08 PM
#23
Enjoy
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Seattle metro
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You can do a search on my reviews of 3 air-less tires... Outside of the cute theories here's my own experience:
On wet pavement, the foam tires loose traction and the back end of the bike slides out (I fell fast and hard while moving less than 10mph). The rolling resistance is about twice that of a regular tire, so one WOULD THINK, that you'd have more traction.
The foam tire must seat well for your particular rim. So if you have a racing rim like Rolf V, the tire wobbles dangerousl on fast descents. Then on the climbs as you're sprinting, you loose traction (same as the wet pavement).
Conclusion: if you live in the flat desert, and go wheelchair speeds go for the foam, airless.
On wet pavement, the foam tires loose traction and the back end of the bike slides out (I fell fast and hard while moving less than 10mph). The rolling resistance is about twice that of a regular tire, so one WOULD THINK, that you'd have more traction.
The foam tire must seat well for your particular rim. So if you have a racing rim like Rolf V, the tire wobbles dangerousl on fast descents. Then on the climbs as you're sprinting, you loose traction (same as the wet pavement).
Conclusion: if you live in the flat desert, and go wheelchair speeds go for the foam, airless.
11-30-05, 07:53 PM
#24
Macaws Rock!
Join Date: May 2005
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Solid core tires are great... for shopping carts.
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San Francisco, California
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San Francisco, California
11-30-05, 10:04 PM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Montreal
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Bikes: Peugeot Hybrid, Minelli Hybrid
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Get 2 more lights (Planet Bike LED spot) and mount them near the bottom of your forks. They will give you good visibility of the debris on the road immediately in front of you.
