oilfreeandhappy

Just yesterday I saw a very "near miss" with a cyclist on a sidewalk.
He came to the intersection, and started to cross. A large van didn't
see him, and started to make a LEGAL right turn on RED. The van
slammed on its brakes, and you could see it rocking back and forth
from the jolt. The cyclist just rode on, seemingly ignorant of the
situation.

Doggus

Better to hog the lane than ride the sidewalks. I find it more dangerous to flip-flop betweent the road and the sidewalk.

DataJunkie

A part of my route is all downhill on a busy street with a combo MUP\sidewalk offset from the curb 4 feet. This is the worst part of my commute. The street is way too busy to ride in and I am forced to use the mup sidewalk thing. I can easily do 30 mph down it. Do I? NO! People pull out and try to wreck me, I need to ride slower to react to these morons.
Anyhow, I am going to explore an alternative route north of this street. The southern streets are not helpful.

hiromian

See my thread in road cycling.."Got hit by a car Stupid me" The bike path I was on is just like a sidewalk.

noisebeam

What speed was the cyclist going? Did they stop before proceeding into x-walk?
Did the right turning driver make a full stop at the stop line then looked both ways before turning?

Yes, sidewalk riding and particularly cycling across x-walks without caution (i.e stopping and checking) are dangerous, but the motorist also bears some responsibility, especially if they didn't make the right on red by the book.

Al

DataJunkie

Hence the reason I have removed most of the sidewalk\ MUP sidewalk riding on my commute. Too freaking slow.
I slow down at every intersection and look for drivers turning right behind me, check ahead of me, and slowly cross the intersection. Not to mention that going up and down sidewalk ramps is abusive to a bike at a moderate speed.
I have one section left to remove. Now if I can just find a decent alternative.

pinkrobe

When I am riding and see a dork riding his bike on the sidewalk, I have a nigh-uncontrollable urge to apply the smackdown.

noisebeam

Don't be so judgemental without knowing all the facts.
I've been in a situation where I've been on a side street that crosses a 6-lane arterial with no traffic light. After waiting many minutes in rush hour for a gap that never appeared I rode the wrong way down the sidewalk to the nearest stoplight got in the road and crossed there. Not my top choice, but the only choice I had.

Al

DanO220

Now let me get this strait. Since you didn't say the cyclist was running a red light, I assume he was proceeding on his, as well as the other motor and pedestrian traffic's, green light. And that means the van is making a LEGAL right turn, against the red, from a cross street? If I've got this right, it means the van was at a ninty degree angle to the traffic flow which did have the green light and thus right of way - regardless of which direction that motor or pedestrian traffic flow was coming from. Right? Well if that is indeed the case, why didn't the van's driver simply look where he was going? It would have prevented him from slamming on his brakes and, oh my God, ROCKING HIS VAN BACK AND FORTH! And if he was getting that kind of momentum going in such short order it sounds as if he was being impatient enough to floor the thing off the line, as well as not taking time to really look left, right, and left again.

Now depending on the municipality, riding on the sidewalk is either legal or it's not. And even where it is legal, you'd better proceed at a safe speed and yield right of way to pedestrians. This seems to be the case here, since you didn't say the cyclinst was riding in a particularly reckless manner.

Riding on the sidewalk is legal in Los Angeles, and I sometimes elect to do so at a reasonable speed. Many times I have ridden across intersections in the crosswalk along with pedestrian traffic. And yes, there have been occasions when a inattentive and/or impatient driver has started to turn into me. Initially I might think, 'as a cyclist, what could I have done to avoid that'. But then I have to reconsider. What if I was in a motorized wheel chair, or a jogger, both of which move slightly faster than normal pedestrians? Would you judge them to be just as guilty of, 'well, kinda making things hard on that van driver then not caring about his pain enough to look back at the near carnage you almost caused?

There's a reason we have to make a full and complete stop before proceeding to make a right hand turn against the red. And that is so we can look for cars, bikes, and especially pedestrians - no matter which direction they are coming from. The fact that some drivers seem unable to do that is no doubt why some states do not allow right turns against the red. Perhaps they have a point.

DanO

DanO220

And you sound just like those drivers who, 'have a nigh uncontrollable urge to apply the smackdown', when they see a cyclist who's riding in the street. Are you for real?

DanO

DataJunkie

If said dork were me I would have an uncontrollable urge to return that smackdown.
Anyhow, my sidewalks are technically MUPs.

oilfreeandhappy

Everything that you said here is true, and I agree that it would have been the Van's fault, had he run into the cyclist. The cyclist, however, did not slow down much, if at all, and just entered the intersection, without even making eye contact with the driver (at least it didn't appear to me that he had). The problem, the way I see it, is that the cyclist has a lot more to lose, so why take the chance at all?

Prime Directive

How should we interact with those we see riding on the sidewalk?

Should we challenge them at all? Suggest they visit bicyclesafe.com in a benign manner (easy to remember, newbie-friendly introduction to VC concepts)? Always leave them alone (besides friendly wave)? Other?

kb0tnv

I gave up trying to educate people. Eventually they will figure it out sadly the hard way. Hopefully there will be more people getting into cycling and they will educate people nationwide. I wish I didn't have to say it be eventually there will probably be a bicycle "drivers" license or a "B" endorsement for your license for "bicycle". I have a "M" for motorcycle on my Missouri License.

Keep Cycling!

tomg

what about the bicyclist who rides on the WRONG SIDE of the road (against the legal flow of traffic).
i've always waved, nodded, etc (probably because i feel. at that moment, i am not alone on the road ). i see both sidewalk "crawlers" and bicycle "walkers" (opposite traffic direction ) riders all the time !
i feel sometimes that they signify what i'm (we're) not to the cagers. i always try to display / represent a legal model and hope i am noticed, but these "illegals" may compromise our safety.
i agree, What to do? is it really in our hands, the police, the public, ...?

pinkrobe

Hey, sometimes I am that dork. If I ride on the sidewalk, I feel like I'm doing something wrong, because I am. If a pedestrian yells at me to get off the sidewalk - I deserve it. If I get busted by a cop because I'm over the age of 5 and riding on the sidewalk, I can accept responsibility for my actions. If I blow through a stop sign or a red light and hit a vehicle, cyclist or pedestrian, it's my fault. It's pretty clear...

I'm a mellow guy by nature, but when I see a biker doing 20+ km/h on the sidewalk, zipping around people and dodging trees, I get a bit mad. I am somewhat ashamed to be associated with somebody like this. Don't you think that we should lead by example and do the right thing? Note that the right thing is not necessarily the convenient thing...

sth

I am with you on this one. In my corner of the world riding on most sidewalks is a no-no. Do I do it? Yes in some rare circumstances and I am uncomfortable when I do. Not sure by your description where the van was but if he was heading in the same direction as the cyclist and turned right on the red(hopefully stopping first) then that means the cyclist was blowing thru a red, or a "do not cross" signal since he was on the sidewalk. Double no no. Sorry boys but in that situation he would carry most, if not all, the fault.

When I see fellow cyclists riding by their own rules I cringe. One thing that causes me a slow burn is the guy that zips up to the red light, pulls a right turn without slowing down, goes a few feet to the right then makes a big U-ie, hangs another right then continues off down the road he was originally on. Especially while I am still at the light. If we want respect from motorists we gotta earn it and that means riding where we belong, following all the same rules as the car.

Bottomfeeder

Well I certainly have to agree with you a thousand percent on that one. And frankly, the fact that a bicycle has a lot more to lose is precisely why I sometimes elect to ride the sidewalk. When there's two big rigs, a bus and a hot head in a BMW all intent on putting the squeeze play on me, I'm not about to martyr myself on the alter of vehicular cycling by stubornly holding the lane. I'll surrender the street and ride out of harms way, albeit a bit slower. Thanks very much.

I have on occasion had conversations with police officers who stopped to remind me that even though riding the sidewalk in L.A. is legal, pedestrians naturally have the right of way. And so I constantly monitor myself whenever I'm there and ride at a reasonable speed, with respect to pedestrians, as well as the two workmen who might appear out of nowhere with a plate glass window. Of course this being Los Angeles, there are quite a few streatches of sidewalk which are so lightly travelled by pedestrians as to render them quasi bike paths.

DanO

Bottomfeeder

Well that depends on the situation. If you spot some teenage urban jump rider racing recklessly down the sidewalk, menacing every pedestrian insight and endagering his brain-dead self, chances are good he's not going to be the least bit interested in any advice you might have. You might as well save your breath, as you'll most likely get the 'finger' in return. Of course if you just have to involve yourself, you might deck the paint huffin', disrespectful punk.

On the other end of the spectrum is the guy or gal who's spinning their Kmart comfort bike in a way low gear and cruising at virtually a walking pace. I see them everywhere. The only way they would be a threat to anyone would be if they DID ride in the street. They are most likely too timid to appreciate, let alone apply, the finer points of VC, and would probably end up getting doored because they were shying away from traffic passing by at an alarming rate. But hey, at least they'd hit that door slow. The only comment they really need is one of encouragement. Of course this too might be a mute point as well, since the majority of these folk are pedaling because they have to, not because they necessarily want to.

Dano

kb0tnv

My limited "sidewalk" cycling is going through a couple parks where there really is just the side walk to "cut through". I don't ride very fast especially if I see a pedestrian. These sidewalks are crappy anyway and I am not on them for very long. I do it occasionally but not all the time. My beef is with the people who ride sidewalks "everywhere". They make cyclists look bad because we need more on the road riding properly. I don't think this will happen any time soon unless the government mandates proper L.A.B. type Road I courses. Get a "B" (bicycle) type endorsement on your driver's license is what they need to have done when people pass the mandatory testing. That way cops can verify if they have been tested. My .02

Keep Cycling!

closetbiker

Maybe the close call will be a motovation for the cyclist to adjust his riding habits, maybe the close call will covince the cyclist that cycling is "dangerous"; I would hope people can learn from mistakes.

There's information out there that says what the kid did, could lead to what happened; if he doesn't learn from this, you'd have to wonder how some get by in life.

I'd just hate to see that person display the same ignorance in a motor vehicle where he could easily harm others just as his ignorance could have just harmed himself.

DanO220

Let's all go down and apply for our license to operate a BICYCLE! This is a truly frightening concept.
Can you imagine the lines down at the DMV? But hey, you can make an appointment for early next year over the phone. And don't forget; you've now involved the government, so it's going to cost you. And while we're crunching the numbers.... what do you think about mandatory insurance? What about the kids? I think learners permits for ages 5 to 15.

The fact is; as thrilling as a few might find the idea - of getting your name and picture on a card that states you have been duly tested and are now certified by the state to operate a bicycle on the public roadways - it's wholy unecessary. There are traffic codes and even criminal laws already in place for dealing with someone who endangers or injures themselves or others by riding in a truly reckless manner. Just as there are already laws for dealing with pedestrians...

Wait a minute there! What about a license to WALK down the street?! These people should be tested by experts on a government approved obstacle course.

DanO

closetbiker

Licencing and insurance protect others potentially harmed from your negligence.

It's unlikely the cyclist was going to harm the truck. If a cyclist harms a pedestrian (a possibility, but a very rare occurance), that pedestrian can sue for damages just as a motorist can sue a cyclist for damages if he were responsible.

Registration, licencing, insurance and gas taxes are all poor arguments used against cyclists to deny rights they already have. Like the point already brought up about pedestrians, how would people feel about the same restrictions for walking? I don't think that would fly and the reasons would be the same for cyclists not having that fly.

DanO220

Are you really seriously suggesting that someone WALKING a bike on the sidewalk presents a threat to your safety?! I'd really like to hear more about that. Maybe the poor sucker's got a flat.

No. Mind your own buisiness.

Yes. As a matter of fact, that's why we pay them and grant them authority.

Do you really want the 'public' telling you how to engage in any particular activity?

DanO

lxpatterson

i was riding a bus one day on my bike route bc it was raining hard and then i saw someone get smoked the same way. there's this bikepath off the road on that part of the route and the dude went off the path and into the intersection (going downhill) probably at 30km+ and he got smoked by some old ***er in a landboat. im guessing he was an ok commuter bc he was riding a recent Trek tourer with paniers. that is why i never have and never will ride the bike path. I have been riding for 2 years that route year round and i always ride on the road.