I expect that PDF is only on adjusting the internal hub gearing cable. But they have an "owners manual" here:
http://www.dynamicbicycles.com/pdf/dynamic_manual.pdf
and it includes an unexploded, cross-section diagram of the shaft drive (page 17), with a parts list (page 18) that is very similar to the parts list on the Incline page I mentioned above (down to the part numbering) .

I'm still hoping that you who have had such bikes tell me what is "normal" friction, "toothiness" feel, and noise level for the shaft drive - since I just got mine I can't tell whether it's normal or not. It is certainly less smooth than a chain drive that is in good repair. Thanks.

When I pedaled mine, there was a very muted "wwwwwrrrrrrr" noise.
You could tell the grease was muting it, somewhat. I could tell the difference,
sort feel the teeth through the pedals a tiny bit. I really think if you keep the
BB tight and the pedals tight on the axle shafts, and keep it greased you'll be OK.
Also, now that I recall, when I 'mashed' as opposed to spinning faster in a
lower gear, the gears complained more. Even though this was most apparent
at the end of its useful life, Im sure it would be a good idea to go a gear
lower when climbing and spin for your speed. Really, just keep everything
tight and ride it. If you are like me and had to commute in New England
snow and then the salt of the Ocean and can make it last, Im sure you will
appreciate it. Also, not getting chain marks carrying it and down the stairs to
my apartment was nice, too :thumb:

more grease
 

My experience has been that, if it starts making noise or feeling rough, put more grease in. That will quiet it down. I have over 2000 miles on mine.
As another poster said, don't mash; don't stand on the pedals; just spin.
MRiley

Dynamic Chainess bicycle
 

Hello All,

While surfing the internet about a year ago, I ordered one of these chainess bikes from Dynamic. I paid the extra airfreight to get it shipped to me in Switzerland and then had it europeanized with hub based lighting, built in locks, fenders and a rack.

I really like the idea of the bike. I ride to and from work in all weather along a flat lakefront path 5km each way.

In other posts I've read that the shaft can't take the kind of tork chained bikes can. I believe this. I only have to climb one small hill on the way home but often I hear CRUNCH, CRUNCH while climbing the hill.

The only thing I've tried is to put grease in as instructed. I read about "once a year or perhaps once a month". I'm 6 ft 1 and 220 lbs. My conclusion is that this bike can't handle the weight. It's started to crunch a lot more recently. I guess it will die soon. It's a real shame. Then the question is to order another shaft or to just junk the bike.

Perhaps this is a great bike but I have to loose 40 lbs and get a new shaft before I can use it?

Too bad. It seems that the shaft mechanism in these bikes is not too well engineered and probably does not use good enough materials, adequately heat treated. The ring and pinon gears in an automotive rear end are one of the most reliable parts of a car normally and seem to last indefinitely. To me the same should be true of a bicycle drive shaft mechanism too. This certainly does not seem to be the case with the current generation of Taiwanese manufactured units.

It may be cleaner than a unprotected chain but if it does not outlast a chain or cogged belt drive for a geared hub then what is the point. Looks to me like you are gaining added weight, unreliability and lower efficiency for cleanliness and no danger of pants being caught in the drive. Not the best trade off IMO. A chain or belt with a guard seems cheaper and more reliable.

Thanks, Victor, for the helpful description and photos.

Re: "just spin it": I've finally had the chance to ride it. (Don't laugh, I'm in Vermont, it snowed yesterday!) 9 miles with moderate hills. Found the gearing range does not go as far down as I'd like for climbing, while the top gear or two I would never use. Of course, with a shaft drive you can't change the gearing. I suppose the Dynamic Bikes 8-speed models would be better for me. (There are also reportedly two models of the shaft drive, that differ in the gearing, I don't know which one I have?) There was occasional slippage in the drive train but I think it's the hub (shifter adjustment), not the shaft. I did adjust to align the colored dots (in 4th gear), but in the real world it seems like I had to loosen up the shifter cable just a bit to make it work better. The friction in the drive train is small relative to the pedaling force most of the time. I could feel the "whirrr" when climbing, and hear it only when climbing slowly in a very quiet area. Overall, worked OK, wish it was lighter and had a lower gear.

Check the bottom bracket for a letter stamped in the housing; I believe a 'C' is the Dynamic Street ratio and a 'B' is Sport.


Check out this page as it shows the different ratios: http://www.sussex.com.tw/se2.htm

My Crossroad 8 shipped with a C shaft, which I believe was the 2.07 ratio. I replaced that with the Sport shaft stamped with a B, which I believe is a 1.77 ratio. It was a big help climbing my 10% grade hill at the end of my commute home at the end of my day.

My big challenge right now is to convert my bottom bracket from grease to an oil bath and keep the oil from leaking out. Since I switched to oil bath lubrication I have had no problems with lubrication, grinding noises, etcetera. Changing to oil bath has solved what is to me the biggest complaint about this drivetrain. Now I just gotta keep the oil on the inside...

You might try 00 grade grease. This is what Sturmey Archer uses in their greased gear hubs and is, I suspect, similar to the greases Shimano and SRAM use too in that application. This is a semi fluid grease apparently originally developed for truck transmissions. Supposed to be just fluid enough so it flows back into geartrains if squeezed or thrown out.

Do you have any sources you would recommend? Links would be most useful.

When I did a search I found a couple of companies offering it in small quantities on Amazon. Here is one.

http://www.amazon.com/Super-Lube-Gre...9415500&sr=1-5

A local call to a heavy truck service facility might turn it up available locally as might a call to a mower and small engine service shop.

Here is one web site that offers it. Scroll down the page.

http://www.jackssmallengines.com/Grease.cfm

AMSOIL makes a synthetic version but minimum container size is 35 pounds as I recall.

Thanks for the info - it is much appreciated.

I found that with cooler temperatures I was displacing the grease from the gear teeth rather quickly. That is the reason I switched to oil. I suppose I could try the 00 grease, and I suppose it would work now that things are warming up again. However, I wonder how the 00 grease would work in sub-freezing temperatures?

The only grease I would expect to help in those conditions would be extreme pressure grease with tackifier additives. Early on I tried one such EP grease and had a difficult time with it as it would stick all over my fingers. I thought that would be a good thing for this type of application. The problem was I couldn't find it locally and the stuff I was using was from work. I was tempted (and was even encouraged) to just take a tube from work but didn't want to be a thief so I could save a couple bucks. To me, the cost-benefit analysis put a stop to that line of thinking...

Anyway, I am really pleased with the oil bath and am quite convinced it is the way to go for this design. I'm hoping I can find a way to seal up the bottom bracket because if I can, I think this would be a clear commuting winner for many.

FWIW: Dynamic Bicycles roadbikes with an IGH

Found this while searching for a wheel with an internal geared hub to replace the deurailler on my hybrid. Not a chainless, shaft drive bike, but another option for those desiring less maintenance on a road or commuter bike:

http://www.dynamicbicycles.com/bikes/road.php

If they sold these in stores, I'd be in line to get one. I know Giant sells something similar (the 'Seek'), but none of the dealers in my area carry it. Always like to test fit in the parking lot before I buy.

Surfrider, did you see the price on the Dynamic Synergy? They want $1,400 - for what?

Good luck with that.

Yeah, a little bit pricey for that type of bike. I've always been a fan of IGH bicycles, and its nice to see a manufacturer put an IGH on a road-style bicycle (the IGHs seem to have always been the "next big thing in bicycle evolution"). Don't know if it would ever catch on with the true road bike crowd that might be skeptical of a non-duerallier hub. I'll probably either buy a prebuilt wheel, or build one myself, for the frame I already have. It'll make a nice commuter/errand bike.

Update: I thought my Incline did not gear low enough for the, um, inclines around here, so I bought another shaft drive unit, with lower gearing (1.77x rather than 2.07x - gives about the same lowest gear with the 7-speed hub as the higher-geared drive would with an 8-speed hub). I got it from Dynamic Bikes, they said it'll fit the Incline and it did. Replacing the unit is not hard, they sent me an illustrated PDF explaining the procedure clearly. The hardest part is removing the cranks, since I don't have a crank pulling tool had to take it to a bike shop for that. Removing the rear wheel, BTW, turns out to be quite easy, for those of you worrying about "what if I get a flat".

One thing I've now learnt is that there are thin spacer washers on the rear axle between the hub and the shaft drive cover plate, and one needs to adjust the number of washers (from 1 to 6, typically 3) for smoothest operation - too few or too many and it runs rough. That may explain why my old drive unit ran just a bit rough?

So now I have the old, standard-gearing ("street") drive-shaft unit left over. (440 mm length, axle-to-axle - the narrow shaft part between the housings is 303 mm long.) If anybody wants to buy it let me know. As far as I can tell (I bought it second-hand) this bike has seen very little use, so there shouldn't be much wear at all on the drive. I rode it about 10 miles, with no problems.

Shaft vs, chain; internal vs. derailleur
 

I am just getting re-interested in biking as I am 57. I am in good shape but I'm not looking to compete with Lance Armstrong. As I see the many Dutch bikes and their American copy-cat brands, I am intrigued that after almost fifty years of being forced to ride a derailleur bike with 1/2" wide wheels and a pedaling position where my backside is about six inches higher than my head, there is finally a light at the end of the tunnel where I might actually "enjoy" riding a bike. I am trying to educate myself about bicycles--what is good, what is not. But as with all blogs, it isn't easy. It doesn't matter if it's someones political views, religious views or bicycle loves, people feel threatened by new things. I have a brother who is a Lance Armstrong wannabee. He never will be. But he can only think of bicycles in one way. They are to win races against the best riders in the world. If someone so much as wipes a booger on his handlebars, he has crossed over some anal weight barrier. It drives me nuts. I understand how critical weight is to racers, but us leisure riders can relax the parameters a bit. I really wish the hardcore cyclists were more accepting of all styles of biking. I have never liked derailleur systems. From an engineer's point of view, it is about the crudest design I can think of. If it were perfect, no one would be looking to design something to replace it. But it, like so many things, has its merits. But there are many types of riding. Some of us aren't interested in the Tour De France. We are only wanting an enjoyable ride to run errands, to maybe save some gas or be a bit more ecologically aware. We aren't climbing the Alps. We aren't crossing the Sahara. We are riding our mostly flat city streets where we need to stop about every hundred yards and we are carrying small packages. A bicycle for that purpose doesn't require the same engineering as a Tourer or Mountain Bike, etc. I've been intrigued with the shaft-drive bikes. I wouldn't expect one to stack up against a professional derailleur race bike any more than my Ford Contour stacks up to a Formula One racecar. There's been one blogger on about a dozen bike sites who has shown how vindictive he is against Dynamic's shaft drive. After I read the third rant by him, I dismissed him. Why? Because he has condemned a product and a company without revealing how he used that product. If he said the bike failed riding around the flat, asphalt-covered bikeways of his little town, I would take what he says to heart. If he said he was dropping off three-story buildings with it and it didn't hold up, it would be a different story. I am hoping that I can find a bicycle that has the features I need and that others can accept that it isn't what will suit them but they are okay with it. I want honest feedback, not moral rantings or unfounded biases. There should be different bikes for different biking styles. One bike is good for one type of riding and terrible for another. That's the kind of info I want. I don't want to hear that some bicycle sucks not because it really does but because it isn't a race bike and to some that is the only kind of bicycle there should be. I grew up with that narrow viewpoint. I started on a single speed, coaster brake bike that probably weighed 40 pounds and might have been a Huffy (or worse). I don't know, as my father built it up from something he pulled from a trash bin. It didn't have a nameplate. My next bike was a Gitane Interclub. I hated it. Hit a tiny piece of pea gravel on an asphalt thoroughfare and you were grabbing your ankles and tucking your head for protection. It was the days before helmets. I now have an old Panasonic MC1500 bestowed on me by an ex-wife who was trying to get me a bike with wider tires. It really hasn't suited my needs at all. So, after this long-winded rant, I appeal to the many knowledgeable, intelligent, and experienced among you to give me some pointers. I am riding mostly flat ground. I make frequent stops. I ride a few community bike trails. I wish to use my bike to replace my car for some short errands, let's say less than 5 miles round trip. My Panasonic has 18 gears, but I seldom get beyond the sixth gear in the lowest range. Are we agreed that I don't need a 24-speed trekking bike? Maybe a Shimano Nexus 7 or 8 or SRAM iMotion 9-speed, chain-driven since the consensus is that shafts are a waste of time. I don't handle the "bent" position. My wrists go to sleep and I need to keep wringing my hands to restore bloodflow. As efficiency-sucking as an internal hub dynamo is, I like the idea of never messing with batteries. I like the idea of internal hub brakes, too, but I've already had many recommendations against them because of fade. I've looked at a dozen Dutch bikes and about 40 brands of German and Danish bikes. I've looked at Breezer and Electra. I liked the different look of the German-made Patria Dublin and Patria Amsterdam. Does anyone have any experience with that brand? Can I buy one without flying to Germany and bringing it back on the airplane myself? I'm fairly sold on being able to shift gears without moving or pedaling as many times I need to make emergency stops and then start up again and at my age, starting in a higher gear is a killer. So, does anyone have some constructive suggestions or have I made everyone angy?

HOLY WALL OF TEXT, BATMAN!

Google "Define:paragraph". They do wonders :)

How weird is it that I JUST earlier today posted in Hybrid forum about BOTH of the bikes pictured in this thread. BEFORE this thread. Weird to me.

The Trek Soho may not offer a ride quite as upright as you'd like but I think it's an intriguing alternative to both chain driven derailleur bikes and shaft drives. Based on this old thread I'd say that though shaft drive bikes probably have a lot of potential, the current offerings aren't well executed.

The belt drive of the Soho is new and may turn out to be problematic but I'd I love to try one of these out for winter riding.

I have two other recommendations. The first is to test ride a bunch of different bikes. I personally wouldn't try to import something unless I was pretty sure it was exactly what I wanted.

The second suggestion would be to use paragraphs if you're going write that much stuff ;)

Sometimes it takes brains and imagination just to ask the right question.

If these bikes perform better than the average badly maintained commuter machine, they may well be the future. Otoh they may have some competition from belt drive bikes like this prototype Orange have been showing off:

http://www.descent-world.co.uk/image.../full-bike.jpg

http://www.descent-world.co.uk/image...-drive-(2).jpg

I'm a little nervous about the belt drive for winter, because I'm afraid that snow and ice would pack into the cog and either snap the belt or cause it to slip. I've found cases of it happening with shaft drive motorcycles.

Dynamic shaft drive bicycle
 

Thanks tjspiel. Sorry about the long paragraph. That's what happens when I drink wine and write. I had to get on the Forum this morning just to be sure I hadn't written something I shouldn't have.

meanwhile;

Interesting looking dual suspension bike. As no visible belt tensioner the rear suspension pivot must be concentric with the bottom bracket. That is something which has rarely been done on FS bike designs.

I think the drive belt technology looks promising. It offers everything that a conventional chain does. And it could be adapted to existing bikes.

With current materials technology it is wide enough so not going to see it on a derailleur bike. To adapt to current bikes would require a joint in the belt for installation and removal which would almost certainly be the weakest point, risking failure.

It looks like these bikes have the same kind of rear drop-outs as track bikes have, with the slot facing backwards. One of the road "fixies" that some companies are now selling might be suitable for conversion.

As tatfiend alluded to, the problem with belts and standard bike frames is how to get the belts on and off. With a chain you use a chain breaker or master link. There's no such animal with a belt so the frame has to be specifically designed to allow belt installation and removal.

Tatfiend is correct that it cannot yet be used with a standard frame and with derailleurs. The late Sheldon Brown maintained the greatest drawback of a belt drive system is that it cannot be customized. Until both problems are solved, its potential application is going to be limited. As I said, its promising but nothing more than that right now.

Dynamic Chainless bicycle
 

Hello All,

This is in response to the long post by "sookieplume" regarding Dynamic Chainless bicycles. I bought a Dynamic bicycle over a year ago. I use it for my daily commute (10km round trip along a flat gravel path). Even though I live far away from the Dynamic folks, they have been very helpful on the phone and the initial shipment here to Switzerland was very fast.

I think I'm the only person in Switzerland with such a bike. I love the fact that it doesn't have a chain. The wheels, brakes & frame are great. I had a problem earlier this year with the shaft though. The nice folks at Dynamic spent hours with me on the phone patiently explaining things I could try out. They then sent me a new shaft free of charge. I think that's great customer service.

The probelm I had from the beginning was with too much torque, the shaft started crunching. As I live in Switzerland, we do have a few hills. I took the shaft apart and expected to see broken teeth. The teeth were all fine but I could not use the bike up hill nor could a go faster than a very leisurely pace without this terrible crunching. Over time it got worse so that the bike could not be used at all.

I've now installed a new shaft and have ridden back and forth to work 10 times. The first few days were great. I thought my problems were over. After day 4 or 5, strange noises have again started to come from the shaft. Last week I took my old beach cruiser (with a chain) to work instead as I didn't like the creaking noise coming from the shaft.

I have several theories what is going wrong:

1. The shaft is not fully sealed, dirt can get in through the back. Perhaps dirt, pebbles, etc. comes in through the back. I do ride along a gravel path.

2. I weigh 220 lbs. Perhaps this shaft just can't take the torque. Perhaps shaft driven bicycles just can't handle folks that weigh that much.

3. Perhaps I'm really unlucky and have a lemon (inspite of the second shaft)

4. Perhaps these problems occur with all these bikes and chains are a superior technology.

5. Perhaps my local Swiss bike shop screwed something up when they installed an automatic dynamo light system (I can't figure out how this would have anything to do with the shaft).

6. Perhaps I have to add grease. Should I really have to add grease after only 50 km??

Any ideas anyone?

Karl from Switzerland

You might want to check out this article: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008...elt-drives.php

The drive system was developed by Gates who also makes belt drives for snowmobiles. Apparently "mud ports" were designed into the system so that snow, mud, and other crud would be shed.