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Blue Order 07-14-07 01:46 PM


Originally Posted by spambait11
Another idea is to fill each lock with some kind of noxious pressurized gas guaranteed to explode if the lock wall is cut. Or some sort of add-on device that will electrify the lock if the lock wall is ever broken.

You know, I've toyed with this idea myself, but unfortunately, it's against the law to set a booby trap for thieves. The thief would attempt to steal your bike, the booby trap would go off, the thief would be injured, and would have grounds to sue you, or more likely, the lock manufacturer. Sad, but true.

CHenry 07-14-07 02:09 PM


Originally Posted by spambait11
I agree with this, but what I still can't wrap my mind around is WHAT exactly that guy was USING to cut the lock (according to the video). If it was a sawzall, that cut is ~ 1/4" wide, like ABH said, so I, too, highly doubt it was a sawzall. Besides, to use a sawzall, the object you cut needs to have good resistance, otherwise the reciprocation of the blade will drag the lock around making it impossible to cut. That means the OP locked his bike such that the lock was so stationary that the vibration from a sawzall did not move it around much; however that still does not explain the width of the cut. Then there's the theory of some sort of battery operated hand held grinder, but every grinder I've used throws sparks, and I didn't really see any sparks flying on the video, though I admit the thief is hidden by that column. I suppose he could have used his bag as a cover to catch the sparks, though. Lastly, both a sawzall and grinder will make noise as someone already mentioned. Too bad the camera doesn't pick up sound as well.



The hope is that if the thief is some sort of druggie, he would not be spending his easy earned cash on cutting tools and carbide blades - unless he's somehow able to steal those as well. If one lock is able to defeat, say, 3-4 blades, then you make the thief have to carry around tons of blades plus extra batteries, and you make him/her have to stay around more than 2:40 minutes in order to get a bike. Plus you also make the thief have to acquire the right tooling. I am fairly sure that there is no portable, battery operated hand held machine readily available that someone can buy off the shelf to cut Ti or Stellite! A tool using grinding discs, maybe; but that would certainly be a battery drain if the hand held tool could even generate the power.

But if the thief, then, goes into the component business by just cutting your frame, then you're screwed anyway. At least that slimeball will have to carry around a broken frame! (That is, unless he gets one of these bags.)

Logic would say this was a 18-24 v cordless cutoff tool using a reinforced diamond abrasive disc. A disc guard could have masked any spark shower. Like this: http://www.all-cordless.com/ma18lxtlicot.html

spambait11 07-14-07 02:30 PM


Originally Posted by CHenry
Logic would say this was a 18-24 v cordless cutoff tool using a reinforced diamond abrasive disc. A disc guard could have masked any spark shower. Like this: http://www.all-cordless.com/ma18lxtlicot.html

No doubt current off-the-shelf tools will cut through most metals; it's the exotic metals I wonder about.



Originally Posted by Blue Order
You know, I've toyed with this idea myself, but unfortunately, it's against the law to set a booby trap for thieves. The thief would attempt to steal your bike, the booby trap would go off, the thief would be injured, and would have grounds to sue you, or more likely, the lock manufacturer. Sad, but true.

"...But your honor, who said anything about a booby trap? Most bike lock tubing is reinforced with mustard gas; it's common practice in the industry." :)

Blue Order 07-14-07 02:39 PM

:lol:

KnhoJ 07-14-07 03:13 PM


Originally Posted by spambait11
I am fairly sure that there is no portable, battery operated hand held machine readily available that someone can buy off the shelf to cut Ti or Stellite! A tool using grinding discs, maybe; but that would certainly be a battery drain if the hand held tool could even generate the power.

Titanium's not that bad. I've even cut it with hand tools, a pipe cutter and a hacksaw. It's softer than steel unless it becomes work hardened. You've just got to be aggressive with it, and not try to make a nice gradual cut, or it will unsharpen your pipe cutter blade. (been there, replaced that blade) But what's really fun is grinding titanium! Once you've seen the shower of sparks thrown off by titanium, you'll never call anything else white again. Just don't breath the ground titanium dust, you'll regret it if you do.
Stellite would cost a fortune to make into something like a lock. I've heard that some of the alloys can technically be cut with carbide tooling, but that doesn't last long. It's generally machined with abrasive surfacing tools. Takes forever. And then there's the usual issue with really hard metals: Whack a good cutting tool with a hammer, and it will splinter. Hardness involves some balance between brittleness and softness. Cutting tools fall much further over on the brittle end of the spectrum than is practical for a lock. A lock as uncuttable/brittle as a drill bit would suffer the same fate under a hammer.

Stainless might be a good compromise, even good old 304. It's ductile enough to form and although it's a pain to cut it's not prohibitive. But the thermal conductivity is so low that it'll heat up locally and work harden in an instant if you make a mistake cutting it. Try drilling a 1/4" hole in 12-18 gauge stainless at high speed and low pressure and you'll see what I mean. You'll get one severely dull bit and a blue dimple in the sheet metal that's nearly impervious to most drills. Abrasive tooling isn't exactly effective, because the heat produced means that the abrasive is always scraping through hardened material.
Maybe if a stainless u-lock had multiple small cavities running through its length, those would serve to collect work-hardened chips, which along with the multistep cut would do terrible things to a cutting tool edge. Not to mention, if someone went after it with an abrasive cutoff tool, the multiple heat-hardened sharp edges formed by the cavities in the stainless would cut down the abrasive a lot faster than the abrasive cut the lock. Empty spaces would save some weight as well, which would be important since stainless weighs a fair bit more than steel.
But at the price necessary to pay for additional design, material, labor, and tooling to deal with stainless, it would be tough to sell enough locks to pay off the original investment. If I get really bored someday and I'm feeling a little masochistic, I might make up a stainless U for my New York lock. But probably not, stainless is a complete headache to work with, insanely heavy, and if someone's got a sawzall they'll be able to get through any bike rack in under a minute anyway. Such is life.

Allen 07-14-07 03:46 PM


Originally Posted by Blue Order

Originally Posted by spambait11
Another idea is to fill each lock with some kind of noxious pressurized gas guaranteed to explode if the lock wall is cut. Or some sort of add-on device that will electrify the lock if the lock wall is ever broken.

You know, I've toyed with this idea myself, but unfortunately, it's against the law to set a booby trap for thieves. The thief would attempt to steal your bike, the booby trap would go off, the thief would be injured, and would have grounds to sue you, or more likely, the lock manufacturer. Sad, but true.

The plastic housing around the lock needs to be made of a material that turns into the foulest, stickiest, tool marring, hand staining, of near impossible to wash off gunk, when subjected to pressure and heat. Slows em down a bit, and gives the thief a kind of a dye bomb to have to deal with too.

Blue Order 07-14-07 04:10 PM


Originally Posted by AllenG
The plastic housing around the lock needs to be made of a material that turns into the foulest, stickiest, tool marring, hand staining, of near impossible to wash off gunk, when subjected to pressure and heat. Slows em down a bit, and gives the thief a kind of a dye bomb to have to deal with too.

That would do the trick!

2manybikes 07-14-07 10:18 PM


Originally Posted by KnhoJ
Titanium's not that bad. I've even cut it with hand tools, a pipe cutter and a hacksaw. It's softer than steel unless it becomes work hardened. You've just got to be aggressive with it, and not try to make a nice gradual cut, or it will unsharpen your pipe cutter blade. (been there, replaced that blade) But what's really fun is grinding titanium! Once you've seen the shower of sparks thrown off by titanium, you'll never call anything else white again. Just don't breath the ground titanium dust, you'll regret it if you do.
Stellite would cost a fortune to make into something like a lock. I've heard that some of the alloys can technically be cut with carbide tooling, but that doesn't last long. It's generally machined with abrasive surfacing tools. Takes forever. And then there's the usual issue with really hard metals: Whack a good cutting tool with a hammer, and it will splinter. Hardness involves some balance between brittleness and softness. Cutting tools fall much further over on the brittle end of the spectrum than is practical for a lock. A lock as uncuttable/brittle as a drill bit would suffer the same fate under a hammer.

Stainless might be a good compromise, even good old 304. It's ductile enough to form and although it's a pain to cut it's not prohibitive. But the thermal conductivity is so low that it'll heat up locally and work harden in an instant if you make a mistake cutting it. Try drilling a 1/4" hole in 12-18 gauge stainless at high speed and low pressure and you'll see what I mean. You'll get one severely dull bit and a blue dimple in the sheet metal that's nearly impervious to most drills. Abrasive tooling isn't exactly effective, because the heat produced means that the abrasive is always scraping through hardened material.
Maybe if a stainless u-lock had multiple small cavities running through its length, those would serve to collect work-hardened chips, which along with the multistep cut would do terrible things to a cutting tool edge. Not to mention, if someone went after it with an abrasive cutoff tool, the multiple heat-hardened sharp edges formed by the cavities in the stainless would cut down the abrasive a lot faster than the abrasive cut the lock. Empty spaces would save some weight as well, which would be important since stainless weighs a fair bit more than steel.
But at the price necessary to pay for additional design, material, labor, and tooling to deal with stainless, it would be tough to sell enough locks to pay off the original investment. If I get really bored someday and I'm feeling a little masochistic, I might make up a stainless U for my New York lock. But probably not, stainless is a complete headache to work with, insanely heavy, and if someone's got a sawzall they'll be able to get through any bike rack in under a minute anyway. Such is life.

Stainless is a great answer. Some people would pay more for an even harder to cut lock. It might be too heavy for most cyclists. But maybe stainless in the smaller sizes.

spambait11 07-14-07 11:18 PM


Originally Posted by KnhoJ
... and if someone's got a sawzall they'll be able to get through any bike rack in under a minute anyway. Such is life.

Ack. You're killing me, KnhoJ.
What if the lock itself was scored like a file and coated with, say, diamond dust? Would such a design quickly dull sawzall blades and/or grinding discs?



Originally Posted by AllenG
The plastic housing around the lock needs to be made of a material that turns into the foulest, stickiest, tool marring, hand staining, of near impossible to wash off gunk, when subjected to pressure and heat. Slows em down a bit, and gives the thief a kind of a dye bomb to have to deal with too.

I like this idea a lot.

ActionJeans 07-15-07 09:58 AM


Originally Posted by CliftonGK1
Yeah, but it's tough to carry Chuck Norris around in a messenger bag.

Yes, it is tough to carry Chuck Norris around in a messenger bag. Very tough.

Kwiksilver 07-15-07 11:05 PM

If two Krypto U-locks are too cumbersome to carry around, I might suggest leaving a padded Fahgettaboudit steel chain at the bike rack or in your office. Fasten the chain together with a triple chrome plated, freon spray proof, rockwell hardened German ABUS Granit padlock (Used for Harley Davidsons). Properly running the 5 ft chain through your frame and both wheels, will require the thug to resort to torch cutting the bike rack. A hacksawed frame doesn't fetch much on e-bay or craigslist these days.

jonnyboy77 07-16-07 07:59 AM


Originally Posted by eza
Done. Used CamStudio to do a screen recording while it played. Source file isn't the best quality, so here's my first conversion of it with the default settings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYtXJ7hH518

Thank you for posting this, I couldn't find any way to do this. I realise its not fantastic quality, and I am sure there are those that are still skeptical.

Thanks again.

Jon

jonnyboy77 07-16-07 08:05 AM


Originally Posted by Raiyn
That coulda been Jimmy Freakin Hoffa for all we can see in that video. It doesn't look like it was secured in the "Sheldon Brown" method either.

I did learn one thing though always park where the cam can see you. Parking behind a bloody pillar was mistake #1

I never said I was perfect! I couldn't get the lock to fit around the bike and totally fill the void as the bike rack has a much larger than normal diameter which made it very difficult to lock the bike against, the Cronus also has an 'odd' geometry which seemed to make it harder.

In regard to CCTV angle and the pillar, it not seem obvious, but when I was locking it up a cursory glance seemed to show that the camera had a good view. Next time, I will be more diligent - in all respects.

I would also note that while the video is not detailed, my main aim (assuming that people actually believe my version of events) was to show that from walk up to ride away really was <2 mins. It does assume that you believe my version of events, and that the bike was locked by me some 2 hours previously - which it was.


Thanks

Jon

nightc1 07-16-07 08:15 AM

Wow@the video

I wonder if you had parked on the other side of the column if he would have gotten someone elses bike instead. It seems he had a pick of a number of bikes but that one was most obscured from the video camera.

jonnyboy77 07-16-07 08:17 AM


Originally Posted by AllenG
The plastic housing around the lock needs to be made of a material that turns into the foulest, stickiest, tool marring, hand staining, of near impossible to wash off gunk, when subjected to pressure and heat. Slows em down a bit, and gives the thief a kind of a dye bomb to have to deal with too.

This was the kind of constructive discussion I was hoping to develop. When I read this I started to wonder about a more 'layered' approach to the material construction of the lock. With a metal laminate construction, could you make the outside less to vulnerable to one type of attack, then an inner core that was a polar opposite, and added the idea above using some form of coating that would create a challenge with heat/friction.

Thanks

Jon

jonnyboy77 07-16-07 08:19 AM


Originally Posted by Kwiksilver
Sorry about your bike theft Johnny. That sucks, and I really knows what it feels like to be left high and dry with nothing but a cut lock left behind (you'd think the *****holes would take that too, but go figure). Clearly this guy was a pro who most likely had been targeting your wheels for a some time. I bet the vid shows him casually walking up and cutting the lock as if it were his own and he had forgotten the key. Sadly, we live in a society where people tend to be conflict averse and therefore avoid getting involved in OPP, even when it involves a blatant crime like this.

If you reinvest in a new bike, I may suggest packing two kryptonites next time. Reason being, a cheap battery operated sawzaw or handheld grinder with a diamond blade attachment runs low on power after cutting through one krypto, at which point the thief either has to pack a second battery (highly unlikely), a second saw (even more highly unlikely), string out a power cord w/extension (desperate), or go home, recharge, and return for the second cut (even more desperate).

In short, off the top of my head I recall reading that one krypto has a deterrent rate of about 95%; two have a statistically higher rate of 99.99%. Then again, if it's either a personal grudge or somebody is determined to break the locks, there really is no fullproof way of stopping them.

I will be revising all my strategies when I replace the bike. I just spoke to the insurance company this morning and they have processed the claim and I should have the cash next week all being well.

Thanks

Jon

jonnyboy77 07-16-07 08:21 AM

Got back from Vegas last night, sorry for the rash of posts. I also forgot until today that I had pinhead skewers fitted, to prevent wheel/seatpost theft ... oh the irony.

Jon

donnamb 07-16-07 01:57 PM

Jon, I'm glad to hear your insurance company is taking care of it. :)

Raiyn 07-16-07 03:04 PM


Originally Posted by KnhoJ
Cutting that lock took a fair bit of work, the cut shows a lot of impatient seesaw action with the saw. The surface of the cut also suggests that the material was removed very slowly, that saw wasn't knocking loose nice clean chips, more like little grainy specks, I'd bet. And over enough time to reduce at least some of the kerf to powder, which would produce that rust right away. You can even see the rusty dust worked into the plastic of the lock.

Sounds to me like you're describing a cut that would take longer than 2 minutes

Blue Order 07-27-07 05:57 PM

Here's an idea I came up with last night to improve u-locks...

earthworm94 07-27-07 05:59 PM


Originally Posted by Blue Order (Post 4948317)
Here's an idea I came up with last night to improve u-locks...

I was thinking about a GPS transmitter (use in Wildlife research) inside the frame of the bike. If they can attach one to a baby seal and works in the Arctic, they can make one work for bikes.

Raiyn 07-27-07 06:05 PM


Originally Posted by earthworm94 (Post 4948337)
I was thinking about a GPS transmitter (use in Wildlife research) inside the frame of the bike. If they can attach one to a baby seal and works in the Arctic, they can make one work for bikes.

Easily found and deactivated. You have to be able to change the batteries.

earthworm94 07-27-07 06:08 PM


Originally Posted by Raiyn (Post 4948378)
Easily found and deactivated. You have to be able to change the batteries.

INSIDE the frame at a discreet location. Charging can be done through induction (If you have a electric toothbrush). Nothing is ever fool proof, but that's the solution to your concern.

Raiyn 07-27-07 06:28 PM


Originally Posted by earthworm94 (Post 4948399)
INSIDE the frame at a discreet location. Charging can be done through induction (If you have a electric toothbrush). Nothing is ever fool proof, but that's the solution to your concern.

Easily disabled by zapping the frame, or passing it through a strong enough magnetic field. To get it inside the frame it would have to be installed at raw tube stage (at which point the construction methods would disable most of them) or would have to be in a "string" configuration to be slipped in after the fact at which point any effective shielding is a moot point as you need to remain flexible.

What about RFID?

Only problems with that are

A) It's not a beacon, they use a passive RFID system in pets which is the chip that most of these types of threads propose. Passive RFID tags have no internal power supply. The minute electrical current induced in the antenna by the incoming radio frequency signal provides just enough power for the CMOS integrated circuit in the tag to power up and transmit a response. Most passive tags signal by backscattering the carrier signal from the reader. This means that the antenna has to be designed to both collect power from the incoming signal and also to transmit the outbound backscatter signal. Not to mention they don't work so great inside metal objects. That and the active RFID's (like in toll booth passes) in addition to needing a power source only have a range of 300 feet.

B) Who's going to know to scan your bike with a chip reader? Also there's no guarantee that the chip reader will be compatible.

So no, I doubt you'll be going all "Jack Bauer" on some scumbag bike thief when you put Fido's microchip in your bike.

2WheelFury 07-27-07 06:53 PM

Can you not bring the bike inside with you? I used to bring mine indoors and park it in a computer closet rather than leave it out - even on a rack.

A bike thief today is what a horse thief was 150 years ago. And they should be afforded the same sentence, IMO.


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