Not that I've heard. You can check the geometry chart though. The 18" frame has an effective 23.5" top tube, which is on par with medium mountain bike frames.

BDs have an intentionally low standover so I would size the frame strictly based on TT and what bars you plan on using.

I ride a 58cm LHT and would ride a 18" BD.

They prettymuch have sold out at this point. There's a literal handful of unsold frames left, counting the few odd sizes still in transit. Early adopters are rarely a test of pricepoint though.

The market price of these frames won't be tested until at least the second batch arrives (six months from now), or maybe even later batches. Positive press and low supply could keep them in demand for quite some time.

If i had to make an uneducated guess, I'd say that the BD frames are likely less profitable than the rest of the Surly line.

Then you should buy one before they run out. :rolleyes:


Holier than thou, eh? As if you yourself don't contribute to any landfill. :rolleyes:

Others shouldn't get so pissy themselves about defending Surly or Xtracycle. People can say the Big Dummy is overpriced because they have at least two datum points they can compare it to, that being (1) a bike with a Free Rad attachment and (2) a complete Yuba Mundo build for UNDER a grand. If neither of the latter existed, then it would be presumptuous to call it overpriced. But they exist, so it's not.

And no one is condemning those who choose to buy a Big Dummy either, ok?

Yikes, that's steep. Time to go get a steel frame from the Salvation Army, some steel tube, and break out the brazing torch I guess.

True, but there's nothing to prevent Surly from changing the pricing. I suspect that as they produce and sell more of them their COGS drops anyway, so it could be justified as something more than just "stick it to the early adopters." If they do, the'll want to look at what happened with the i-phone, and NOT do it that way. At any rate, the current price is reasonable given the response they are getting to the product (IMO).

Never said I didn't - you, however claimed that this was overpriced and not needed.


Well, your initial post sounded fairly accusatory, as if people we just throwing money away.


Free Rad will need a previous bike that works, install time, and monkeying with parts and adjustments. It will also probably ride much differently than an integrated frame.

You're comparing this to a Yuba?
Was that the single speed version?
Does the Yuba include bags and accessories designed to work with the cargo system?
Disc brakes?

My BD frame arrived last Thursday. :D

What Taiwan labor it that? You should talk to the folks from Surly and get them to tell you some stories about how producing this bike really screws up their other production, which is why they only do runs of 300 at a time and have to plan carefully.

Yep, I ride 57-58cm bikes, my BD frame is an 18".

chip - you're going to need more screen space on your sig line to fit the BD in... :)

My thoughts exactly. He's hogging all the cool bikes. :rolleyes:

The Kona UTE is already out, it seems like a pretty nice ride....weird to handle though, it has crazy moustache bars!

Heh, I was thinking that myself when I was updating. BF is just gonna have to increase the darned width...I'm a payin customer, dambnit! ;)

A BD is stout enough. Just pile your other bikes on top of it and then take a new picture. :p

No, jeffbeerman2 asked how to transport large quantities of toilet paper, etc. to which I replied you can already do this with an Xtracycle, you don't have to use a Big Dummy. In that case, if you already own an X, a Big Dummy is not so much a need as it is a want.

Why not? The need for extra stability seems to have prompted the whole Big Dummy idea. But most of us already know that carrying tons of weight on the rear of a bike makes for lousy handling in general. I think if Surly were to do this right from the ground up, they'd create something more akin to a bakfiets. Yet they were forced to conform to the Xtra style in order to use Xtra bits and parts because, well, the Free Rad was already in the marketplace.

The Mundo purports to have the same carrying capacity and is more compact so the load does not have to be so far back. Yeah it's not X compatible, but people are showing that making their own bags can rival anything Xtra has to offer, plus I think Ortlieb (or some other well known manufacturer) is going to come out with compatible bags soon.

As far as drive train, even if you were to buy a single speed Mundo, you could at least ride it. Buying a Big Dummy frame only gets you the frame. But I think the $799 Mundo version is a multi-speed version.

And as far as disc brakes go, if you've read Surly's initial spew, you would have read Surly acknowledging that the rear disc brake will rub against a Free Rad Freeloader, wearing it down, so you have to watch that area. My impression is that this wasn't a first iteration flaw either, but something inherent in the Big Dummy design.

Lastly, you know the Big Dummy is NOT ready for prime time because neither X nor Surly has a viable kickstand solution. Good luck trying to load you Big Dummy to the max! For goodness sake, that damn kickstand shown at Interbike should have been the first thing to have been produced. For now, I will conjecture that most Big Dummys will only be ridden for show. Can't use it fully if you can't hold it up fully. At least the Mundo comes with a Hebie Bi-Pod.

Leave it to DJ to come up with the simple solution that eluded me! :lol:

LBS wrench who got his frame the same time as mine already has his built, kickstand and all. I'd rather have a bipod type stand, but the stand on this bike has no problem supporting it fully loaded.

Yawn...no good deed goes unpunished these days...:rolleyes: It is amazing how critical people can be of a bike they've never seen or ridden. The Xtracycle concept has been proven extensively by people who are using them for all sorts of hauling tasks to off-road touring. Surly took their time through 3-4 sets pf prototypes refining the BD. Do you honestly think they haven't used them for any real hauling missions to this point? So you are envisaging the 300-500 frames sold in this batch will be used for coffee runs and sunday rides in the park - crippled by Surly's obvious oversight??? Come on.

I'm stoked Surly made the Big Dummy. Investing time and effort in a model that will never be a big seller is a nice gesture. Doing something because you believe in it and are having fun with your bikes is awesome.

Yes! We can only hope that the Kona Ute, Surly Big Dummy, Yuba Mondo, and others are foreshadowing a widespread need and desire for human powered transportation in North America.

Like you have done either and are commenting on the merits first hand? :rolleyes: No, please. Give me a break. Write back when you've actually built yours and have actually tried to load it.

I have an Xtracycle. I at least know what I'm talking about. If/when you get yours, you will know too.

I think the Dummy and the other longtails are going to finally give North America its own style of utility bike, much like the bakfiets has done for Northern Europe. Now I'd like to see the longatil offered with a huge waterproof rear box like the bakfiet has.

My my my...someone rolls a virtual Big Dummy into the room and next thing you know, we got folks pissing in their neighbor's cornflakes.

Me? I've never had a nice touring bike, or a cargo bicycle for that matter.

But I know one thing: when I saw the Big Dummy for the first time, I got excited. As in, little kid with his first bicycle kinda excited. Remember that feeling?

You could even say I got inspired, if that's not too much drama for ya. Inspired to change my behavior and stop using my Tacoma for stupid little tasks around town. Inspired to make changes beyond the proposed functionality of the Big Dummy: we've been recycling every day, planning a garden for the first time, supporting our local organic farmers, and more.

"Wait, ALL because you saw a #$%& photo of the Big Dummy?"

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

So, I'm not here to piss on your cornflakes. I'll assume that most of you here are much wiser and more experienced than me when it comes to touring/commuting/hauling stuff on a bicycle.

Meanwhile, I've got a Dummy waiting for me in Pennsylvania, and I'm pretty doggone stoked about the bike and where it's already "taking me," let alone where it'll take me once it's here.

DWNPTRL_777
A simple SOB

amen brutha amen

Just to be clear:

1. In the midst of passion, don't neglect reason (reason even still applies in a postmodern mindset as well).

2. Saying something is overpriced does NOT mean:
- it is not useful
- it cannot change or alter your lifestyle for the better
- it does not have other tangible/intangible benefits
- it is a bad design
- it is unequivocal proof that you are evil for purchasing/consuming said item

But fanaticism and unhealthy brand loyalty make you think someone is saying these things when s/he is not.

Saying something is overpriced just means, compared to other similar items fulfilling the same wants or needs, it is overpriced. I suppose this should be distinguished from someone who says "I'm not paying that because, in general, I'm cheap." But on forums, it is hard to distinguish because both concepts seem related, depending on the individual.

3. Xtracyle and/or Surly really needs to come out with a good kickstand esp. for heavy/severe cargo loading. It will make the bike more useful in general and will be a benefit to Big Dummy as well as Xtracycle owners, and may spur other cargo bike makers to do the same. Of their whole longtail design, the kickstand, imo, is their weakest, and in many ways most crucial, oversight (others are free to amend this opinion or disagree). My explicit criticisms were/are confined mainly to this area.

Moreover, be of good cheer. I don't think anyone has an ethical or moral problem with longtails, and I'm glad a mere picture could change your life so radically. You must be a visual learner. :)

Lots of cheer on this end! Prolly didn't communicate that in my last post now that I re-read it, but I'm practically smilin' as I type. Even now.

You bring up some great points, and my happy-go-lucky smiles aside, those points certainly rate discussion. The kickstand issue is an interesting one to me—I assumed the Hebie would be an option. Silly me. Price/value? Meh...We could argue that one all month without much resolve, I'm sure. For instance, I would have paid much more for the BD frame. But that's me.

I will throw this nugget onto the table: I'd offer that the Dummy is one of the most exciting things to happen to bicycling in the United States in a long time...

Well, after sinking the price of an xtracycle complete BD into car *maintenance* (some of it admittedly deferred a little too long) I know which I'd rather have.

Ok, so who's planning to build one with a dérailleur setup?

Does the extra chain length cause a problem with shifting? I guess I'm on the fence between going this route, or considering a Rohloff or Nuvinci. Unfortunately, the only spare 26" wheels I have are a superlight XC set, so I'm going to have to buy something new regardless.

every xtracycle I've seen around town not only has that long chain across a like 3x7 setup but also canti or maybe v brakes, so I would think a BD would work fine w/ the long chain too. A rohloff and discs would be tres sweet though.

WOOOOO HOOOOO! My shop just ordered me the LAST 22in frame currently available! Can't wait, been drooling for one since the initial news hit.

For us big boys, the standard Free Radical Kit can only take so much load. My Free Radical is hooked up to a Breezer Uptown, and when that thing has about 100+lb on it, it gets REAL flexy. My hope is the straight-to-dropout seat stays on the BD will offer a lot more lateral support and let me carry loads like this without feeling like I'm driving a big floppin' wet dolphin!

Plan to do mine with most of the bits off the Breezer, Nexus 8 internal hub, MAYBE a gen hub disc compatible front wheel, ect.