I see it the same way, and I am one of the many who choose not to own or carry a firearm.

I didn't read anything elucidating in the 2nd article. What do you mean?

I do not carry a gun because i am living in a war zone. I carry a gun on the off chance that some asshat decides he wants to do me, or those around me, harm. My house has a fire alarms on the off chance it goes up in flames while i am sleeping. I have never had a break in, but i pay the alarm company 50 bucks a month just in case. I have never been in a serious bike wreck, but i still strap on a helmet. The chance somebody is going to try and harm me is rare, but just in case...

Exactly theres always more to every story.

You may be from Canada, but I was in the Army. In the military, you don't just "pop a cap" in someone, you train to identify the situations, to stay within the rules of engagement, and to always be proactive. Me personally, if I was allowed to have a gun on the property of where I work, would have one on me while commuting. Being that I can't, I am very comfortable with using a knife and carry one daily. So far I have not had to use it, but I have had to pull it out a few times. While I don't recommend for anybody to do this without training, I do feel some martial arts/self defense/street sense training for anybody that is going to ride a bike on the street. To do otherwise is the same as strapping a bunch of hot dogs to your back, jumping in a locked pen of wolves, and not knowing how to let yourself out! Be proactive and use your common sense.

By the way, even the most noob rider can outrun someone on foot if needed...its called adrenaline!

Because the guy has been divorced maybe, or never married? Is a single parent? Is engaged? What the hell are you guys talking about?

huh
 

If 'cycling kit' is a tight fitting Lycra costume then its difficult. I suppose you could carry a small, light, hammerless , .38 airweight Smith&Wesson in your back jersey pocket.

Its a sad story.........and an unfortunate fact of human nature.:50:

Hard lesson ... avoid, escape, do not engage :(

I disagree and I know where you live!!

Awful story. It's a damned shame for anyone to buy it like that--whether it involved cycling or not (that it does, and the way the stories lean in their portrayal of it has to be especially compelling to a group of cycle commuters, of course).

Apparently we can't/won't know what the argument was about that led to the man's death. I think that this particuar group here, though, can easily see the strong possibility that it involved something to do with what one or both of the vehicle operators were doing as they moved down the road. The considerations for not confronting drivers unnecessariily are strengthened in light of it, though (at least they are for me).

Along the routes I currently ride most often, I do not feel the need for carrying (and if I did I wouldn't worry about the legality of it). If I ever do feel the need to carry, I certainly will. I only hope that I don't suddenly feel the need to carry at a time when I'm not carrying.

Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances...

It sounds like the guy got into an argument with someone?

well clearly the best thing to do when confronting somebody who has a different lifestyle than you is to man any and every negative assumption you can.

This is a terrible tragedy no matter what all the discussion on this board is about.

The gun debate has been gone over and rehashed many many times. Had this person been carrying a gun he might be living and the guy that shot him might be the one in the news. Its very easy to sit and pick this situation apart from the safty of our desks and computers, and to throw out genralizations about the incident and the gun debate at large.

My opinon would be on the side of carrying, while at this time i dont carry i have taken defensive shooting courses, i have grown up and been educated around guns all of my life. I see them as a safe practical tool for getting food, or to put some holes in paper for a fun day at the range, and i also can understand the their usefulness as a defense item. I think that alot of the people who stray away guns and think they are "inherently bad" really dont know a whole lot about them. I think they are fed the 1 in a millon news stories through the media and lets face it the media itself is very anti-gun. Its easy to form opinons on things before really understanding them, i am not trying to single anyone out here or start any arguments. I think that a responsible citizen carrying a gun is a good thing, i think there are people in this world i wouldnt want to have a gun but for the majority of everyone i know that has a CCW permit i feel perfectly safe around them. I think that as with biking the more you dont know about the subject the more you are intimadated by it.

Now that i have stated my position i think cycling with a gun does have some advantages. We are very vulnerable when we are riding, and it is true that sometimes we do have to ride in the dark, through bad neighborhoods/parks/parking lots. I live in a fairly small city and it isnt near as bad here so i can imagine some places being alot worse. I also work as a corrections officer at the county jail so i meet some people. I see alot of these same people when i am out riding, its interesting to know the history of someone you are just passing along. I have ridden past someone who attacked someone with a machette, i have ridden past a guy who spent years in prison for selling cocaine, i have ridden past a guy who needs very strong anti-depressents and other be-cool meds something tells me he wasnt getting too many of them while he is on the street and he may be a bit "unstable". I have ridden past a guy who attacked and attempted to **** a 15 year old girl who was jogging on the MUP. My point is there are people out there who arent like the average upstanding citizen (us). I happen to know a little bit more about them then most people would, but really what keeps someone like that from trying anything on some random person?

Obviously nobody that carries a gun WANTS to use it, it would be a terrible situation where i would have to use deadly force in self defense. It would be nice if we were able to count on police at all times however its a sad part of our society that we cant. Defending myself is not something i would like to ever have to do, just as crashing my bike is something i would like to never do, yet i wear a helmet.

So in closing, this whole thread was started about an tragedy that was started into a whole gun debate. There are clearly issues on both sides of the debate and i think its something that can only be broken down to an individual choice. Individualy i choose that i want the option of carrying one with me, some wouldnt agree and i respect that, just as my choice needs to be respected.

The answers to that vary in opinion greatly as well. Just by responding I feel like I am opening a can of worms.

Could be so many things or maybe its all of them combined.

Like what? :

Lack of community(do you know your neighbors first names and something about them? If not what makes you think the strangers you call neighbors will step in and disallow things to happen? If they don't know you, how are they to know that the person unloading stuff from your house into their car is not helping you move? After all, they don't know you, you could be moving, back to watching T.V. for them.).

One room school houses no longer the standard.

Corporal punishment being labeled abuse(yea I know sometimes it really is).

Welfare that does not have to be paid back for able bodied adults.

Poor education systems.

Cheap oil/energy.

Society being nearly split between the ones who want a police state and cradle to grave health care, etc, etc, and the ones who wish they were simply born in the wild west era both trying to accomplish their agenda and being stifled by the other side to the point where many are almost afraid to move.

A system that puts offenders in a cage with a food and water dish and just expects that to be enough to change them rather then actually attempting to educate them, etc.

A country that has decided that rather than change the way they get around, they will attack the problem by burning food in their cars instead, following by complaining that food prices are skyrocketing, and refusal to see the association.

T.V.'s being used as babysitters or sometimes even parents.

:trainwreck:

The problem with cyclist is we leave ourselves open to both "traffic crime" and "street crime"..... Missing set of keys? This may have been more related to random street crime. I guess I don't get the key thing...

Some early A.M. Methhead was probably trying to rob him and he took the "Aint takin no sh*t while ridin my bike" cowboy stance and it got him killed.

Gotta love the media hey?

I rode once with a fellow in Israel. He would put on a base layer, then shoulder holster with gun and then his Jersey.

What we do know:
1. A guy was just starting to commute to work on his bicycle.
2. He was excited about bicycling to work.
3. He made some effort to make himself visible to traffic.
4. He worked at the same place for over 20 years.
5. He got back together with a former girlfriend after both of them had married and then divorced someone else.
6. There are children from the previous relationship(s).
7. There was an argument at some point of the guy's first bike commute to work.
8. The argument was loud and intense enough for people nearby to take notice.
9. The guy was shot in the face and killed.

What we don't know:
A. If the shooter and cyclist knew each other prior to the argument.
B. Who the shooter is.
C. What the argument was about.
D. Who started the argument.
E. If the cyclist could have left the scene prior to the argument or prior to the argument getting out of hand.

What I know from all of this:
I. It's is a shame that it happened.
II. Somebody died, probably needlessly.
III. Try to avoid cycling in south Toledo, try to avoid even being in south Toledo for that matter.
IV. Stuff happens, try to avoid it if you can, try to survive if you can't avoid it.
V. Some people are willing to kill someone else over a verbal argument, apparently.
VI. I hope they catch up with the shooter and hear what he has to say, granted it will be his side of the story, but at least we'll know more about it and maybe at least partially answer some of the unknowns.

And with that I will request a thread lock on this one until more is known about the story.

+1. Well stated.

I think there is a popular misconception about law abiding armed citizens with ccp. I have one and a lot of people I know have one. We don't pull our guns out to stop fist fights or unarmed robberies. Even with armed robberies if we aren't being robbed we observe until the situation escalates to a physical one. Just about all of us remove ourselves from situations sooner, because we don't want to end up in a petty fight. We don't flash the gun around. We can not drink with the gun on us. A lot of us carry a .380 it is a small sized pistol that makes noise and can kill someone. I personally am more interested in the fact that it makes a noise that makes people run away. A few guys make a bad name for us, these guys typically get their permits pulled because they forget that hiding the weapon from view at all times is the most important thing about the permit.

I have been shoved before while trying to protect my family from a mentally unstable man. I believe that had I been unarmed I would have kicked his ******** ass up and down the street for scaring the kids and shoving me while charging my property. Knowing I had a lot to lose, I let the one shove slide and continued to forcefully talk to the man back until he left slightly pist. Had I not had a gun I would have beat him down for sure. I am not the kind of guy who gets scared by confrontation. In fact when he shoved me it felt better than sex knowing I had the green light to fight an out of shape man. I knew that I couldn't fight though for so many reasons, all having to do with the gun. Had he punched me I still wouldn't of have shot him. It would take the immediate threat of great bodily injury to a family member for me to even draw.

The point being we are not cowboys. We do not wake up hoping to shoot a colored. In fact we all understand that we will probably be in civil and criminal court if we ever actually pull the trigger in the most justified setting. We don't want to kill anyone, especially in front of our families. We made the decision to carry. As fas as the comment about the bystander being hit. We aim. We didn't buy our gun from our drug dealer 2 days ago. We can actually keep our eyes open while we pull the trigger. Not to say that we won't miss, just saying that a lot of morons don't aim they just point and shoot.

Be a ***** it will always get you out of trouble. Sick Focks wont mess with you if you puss up. I disagree on so many levels with your statement. He didn't get himself killed. He was murdered. No matter what he did he has nothing to do with not being alive today. If he did decide to not lay down, good for him. Maybe if everyone fought back these sick *******s wouldn't view individuals with jobs as easy ATMs. This popular idea that laying down and handing it over is smart, has led us to the point where criminals know they just need to ask for money and they will get it. If criminals really thought we would fight back, do you thing they would rob us as often? An armed society is a polite society.

I am a fairly laid back guy in most circumstances, but I'm telling you right now, one of the biggest problems with our society today is the thought process that somehow, some way this guy had it coming if he didn't just start licking the nuts of the thug he was arguing with from the first second.

Bottom line, I wouldn't die over what's in my wallet, but if someone decides to shoot me for something I said, that's wrong, and they should fear the punishment that will come with it. I don't care if I just told them I fist ****ed their mom, and she was still loose, they don't get to shoot me. They can be upset, they can be sad, they can even be angry, but the second they escalate the situation from words to violice of any sort, all bets are off, and if they don't kill me with the first act, by the end I promise you they will wish they had.

I don't carry a gun, most times I don't think I need one, there is one iffy neighborhood I go though while on the way to a friends house, but I just try to keep my eyes open, and remember that an 18lb road bike could be used quite effectively to bludgeon someone who was within range.

I truly hope they find the person who did this, and they put them away. It's a truly sad story.

Joe

I didn't read the whole thread, but I have seen a lot of people advocate Carrying guns/knives, Like someone on this page that mentioned carrying a knife, never "used it" but admitted to taking out a few times.

Now, I've lived in detroit, which is SUPER high in crime, I've never carried a gun, or a knife, and have never been in a situation where I would need one.

I honestly believe that those who carry weapons, open the door for that behavior. Be it a mind set, or if they are just plain confrontational and find themselves getting into the situation. It seems in most cases, it takes two people to tango.

There are going to be people who carried a weapon, were assaulted for no apparent reason (no arguing, unprovoked), and were able to save themselves from injury or death, but most times, it causes more problems then its worth.

Even Martial arts, I take Kung Fu, I was assaulted once, seemingly by some crack head, he just tried raining blows down on me, I parried and blocked most of his attacks, but didn't retaliate and hit him. I then left the scene. as I was leaving I saw some people hiding around the corner, watching it, They appeared to be friends of his. What if I had retaliated? His friends would most likely come to his aid. What if they were strapped? you don't know.

Carrying a weapon will only mostly aggravate the situation.

There is always a case where it will help, but most of the time, it only provides false confidence and will get you in trouble. You may willingly engage in an argument if you know that you are strapped, because, in your mind, even subconsciously, you have the upper hand.

Point is, Having a weapon with you causes more problems then it resolves. It's that simple. There is exceptions to every rule. But adding to the proliferation of guns and other weapons has a negative effect to the world.

Not to mention any weapon can be turned against you.

Guns are dumb. This story proves it. Regardless of whether this was a minor argument that exploded or a major one or even random violence, the fact that guns are so accessible make crimes like this possible.

+1 to that.