While I agree that it's possible to over analyze anything I truly feel that leaning and using countersteering in a concious manner is going to speed up the learning to ride phase. If only because the rider will be using it rather than trying to "trick" it into happening. It'll fade to the level of instinct soon enough as the comfort level comes up. But used conciously at first means that the rider isn't trying to steer the bike like a car. And that's a huge step right off the bat.

That video linked in BarracksSi's post just above is excellent. It clearly shows all three parts of a turn, the entry kick, the turnin to balance the turn and the turn in to lift the bike back up. VERY nicely done. Although I do take exception with the idea that at very low speeds it's better to lean rather than counter steer. At super low speeds I find it's essential to counter steer "into" a fall if I want to stay upright. Granted the amount of initial counter steering to get into a turn is super light and almost not much at all. But the amount needed to recover from a very slow turn is quite a lot. It's still "counter steering" when you turn INTO a turn to lift the bike back up. After all, you're still turning the bars the "wrong way" to go the way you want to go.

While you won't ever feel it on a bicycle he's sure right in the video about at racing speeds needing to use a huge push and pull on the bars. I've done some racing and lots of track days and at around 100 mph and up the bars require HUGE forces to make the bike turn in sharply or go through a tight chicane. But that's mostly about the wheels acting like extremely effective gyroscopes at that point.

Borrow a tandem bicycle, hop on the back end, and convince a hot chick to steer you around the block a few times.

You'll get the hang of it.

Right. From my perspective, making that motion feels more like I'm getting the bike underneath my body. It's just the opposite of making a countersteer movement to initiate the turn, which feels like throwing the bike out from under me.

Same movements, just a different way of looking at them. :thumb:

And that is a great alternate way to look at steering a bike. You kick it out from under and then catch it. When you're done changing direction you steer it back under yourself. I've tried to stick to the whole "push the bars" method because I think it's a better way to describe it for folks like firstian in a way that they can directly use.

But I've often riden along on my way to work thinking just the same as you. When I think of it that way it's all about moving the contact patches in relation to whereever the apparent gravity pull happens to be at the moment. We keep it in line with the apparent G force to stay stable be it in a turn or upright and we use the steering to shift where the contact patch is to make us "fall" away from the direction we moved it. Oddly enough that may mean we "fall" back up to upright. Obviously I think strange stuff when I'm faced with the psychological pressures of going to work.... :D

You can pretty much say that it's like balancing a broom handle end on in your palm. You constanty adjust to keep your hand moving back under the handle. If you want to walk with it you have to pull your hand BACK for a split second to start the handle falling forward. Then you walk ahead and back under it to get the balance back. At the end of the walk to stop you have to actually dash forward to get your hand past the handle a bit so it leans back for a moment until it stops moving and then you pull your hand back to directly under it. Turning the bike is sort of the same. You kick it to the side then turn in hard enough to balance it and stop the "fall" into the turn. At the end you steer it in harder to bring the bike back under yourself so you straighten up again.

At the risk of confusing poor firstian more than we have in the last couple of posts there's a philosophical way to look at steering a bike. We don't really steer a bicycle to make it go anywhere in a direct manner. All our steering is about maintaining or deliberatly upsetting our balance. But we learn to alter this balance so the bike teeters and tips about in a way that makes it go where we want it to go. Just like that broom handle is all about balance first and foremost and we bump the balance around to make it move where we want.

OK, now I'm officially guilty of WAAAAYYYYY over thinking the whole thing. Not that it's not valid but it's far more than you want in your head when you're just trying to learn to push the bars around and ride smoothly.

sounds like the bike is either to small or not adjusted right. when i had my first bike, it was to small frame wise, and the seat tube was nearly out of the seat stay. I could not corner for crap, and my knee's would almost impact the bars. I exchanged for the larger frame, and i can cut corners doing 20 mph like nothing, and overall it's just much more controllable.

also lean into the turns, sheldon brown has a good article on this. You don't need to lean in like a pro motorcycle racer, but just slightly, makes a big difference.

firstlan,

How are you doing? Newbie to newbie, I'm rooting for you :)

Agree with the advice given. As far as the problem with your hands, particularly the left, is concerned, try riding with your hands resting lightly on top of the bars, not gripping them. This helps with using your body to initiate movements/changing direction.

When comfortable with that, just lift one hand (the one you most instinctively feel like using) and counting 1,2...1,2,3...1,2,3,4 etc. until you feel at ease, or reasonably so. Then do the same with the other hand. You'll probably find that it is easier to steer instinctively with one hand rather than the other. For most people, this is the left.

Then follow the other advice to do this with obstacles on a flat surface (car park, etc.). Whether using one hand or not, try to get the feeling of "swinging" the bike with your hips/body around the obstacles (6'/7' apart is a useful distance to start with) rather than steering with the hands. And do so at a consistent speed.

Other than this, practice, practice and more practice. Also, try and concentrate on the manoeuvres you wish to do and not how to do them. Your instincts/subconscious will be able look after the how within a very short time.

Good luck and welcome to the family, fractious tho' it can be at times

I'm making progress :). My practice ride is up to 3 miles with a bit of hills. My rear end is basically used to the ride, as it only feels uncomfortable when I hit potholes. Control-wise, well, it's still hit and miss. There are days that I feel very much in control, and then there are days when I all over the place. The steering with the body business is harder than I thought. It's almost impossible when I try too hard. Today, the hills are giving my left knee some grief. So I'll go easy on the paddling tomorrow and see if that makes it better. Working up to that 7 mile one way commute is going to take a while; I have yet to ride on roads with busy traffic. I also plan to take some bike classes offer by Massbike next month. If everything lines up, I can start my commute just when the leaves are turning color around here!

You are dedicated. I am so proud of you! I believe that you will become a regular and happy commuter.

A couple things that I've been thinking about (or overanalyzing... LOL) -

Somebody mentioned that it's sometimes like riding a horse. Now, I've never ridden a horse, but I can imagine how it applies. On rough surfaces, or on things like the ramped transitions from the street to a sidewalk, I just go with it, not even consciously trying to point the bike straight. Left on its own, a bike will sort of keep control of itself (there's a vid out there of a racer losing control of his mountain bike, which kept rolling out of view from the camera). Get off the saddle, and let it buck forward & back like a horse jockey.

Also, as I think about it now, I ride with a pretty light grip on the bars pretty much all the time. The only times I grab them hard is when I'm standing and really pedaling hard, too. Otherwise, my fingers are pretty loose.

You mean this one?

I've set the URL so you can click for full screen, and Warning, do get those tissues ready, for the tears of laughter. :roflmao2:

OMG. That's great! He's so good that he doesn't even need to ride the bike :). As for mine, I think it just falls over when I take a look at it.

Bingo. And Yahtzee.