An Awkward Fit
 

Nearly all the bikes I have owned till a few months ago were steel road bikes. My favorite bike to date was a 60cm 1988 Centurion Ironman. It was light, responsive, and was great for my “fast commute” style. Most of all it fit perfectly. Basically it was the bike I rode everywhere while everything else in the stable just gathered dust. Unfortunately it met its demise in a freak accident when I slipped and lost my grip on it at the top of a long set of stairs.

Three months ago I received a Specialized Tricross Expert as a wedding gift. Before receiving the bike I went to be fitted at the local concept store for Specialized where they insisted that I ride a 58cm despite expressing my concerns that I felt cramped on the bike and that it didn’t feel right. I figured they would know more than me so I went with the 58cm.

I have been riding this bike to work and back consistently for three months now. I have tried adjusting seat height, flipping the stem, moving the stem to different height…but I still end up with pain in my back and my knees. A few weeks after I bough the bike I tried to call the store where the bike was bought to express the problems I was having, but they acted as though they could care less about how the bike was fitting me. Is this just part of getting used to a new bike that is built for a different purpose or is this an improper fit?

Part of me feels bad about having second thoughts about the bike that was such a generous gift, but at the same time the pain in my back and my knees that this bike causes is problematic to say the least. I am at the point now where I am not sure what to do and I am debating on getting a different frame and switching over the drive train. Any suggestions on what might be causing this or how to correct it?

When I was on a smaller frame, my back used to hurt a lot as well. Once I got on a larger frame and could stretch out my back instead of having it cramped up, my back pain essentially disappeared. You may be able to use a longer stem and take care of some of your fit problem, or move your seat further back.

I moved the seat back as far as it would go but I will give the longer stem a shot. It would be a lot cheaper (and easier) than buying a different frame.

I bought a Tricross expert. LBS is a specialized shop, the fit guru measured me, looked up things, and sold me a tri-cross that is smaller than what I normally get in a road bike. But then they put the bike on an exercise stand, and fit it to me. Adjusted seat height, seat position, shoe cleats, handlebars. Adjusted everything! No problems. Almost a year later, I developed a tendency to ride with my toes and knees out. Same LBS put me back on the trainer, adjusted shoe cleats, added shoe inserts, got things back in line. No charge. I have since bought a few more bikes from them.

My conclusion: my Specialized LBS rocks, and yours sucks! However, your wedding gifts put mine to shame. You are not being serviced well by that shop, but fit advice might be hard to give over the phone. Don't be bashful. Go into the store with the bike and your riding gear and Tell them this. Tell them how disappointed you are, and give them an opportunity to fix it. If they don't, find a shop that will help you, and pay them for the service. Never go back to the shop that failed you.

I do think that a cyclocross bike is fit to you a bit different than a road bike, but there should be no reason why you can't get this one working for you. Perhaps a wider handlebar, if your shoulder width requires it. Adjusting the stem height, and angle of the handlebar. Adjusting the seat position by Getting your knee properly lined up with the pedal when it is parallel to the floor, and adjusting the seat height seem in order (LBS used a plumb line for this, and also had a leg angle meter too). I have been the recipient of a really good bike fit session, know what was done for me, but otherwise am not qualified to solve fit problems. Hence the recomendation to find someone who is.

The "size" of a bike is nearly irrelevant anymore. You have to compare frame geometries.

What is the horizontal/effective top tube length? What is the length and eff. length of the stem? What's the reach between the center of the seatpost and center of the handlebars (~eff. TT + eff. stem)? What's the saddle to bar drop? Etc. And how does everything compare to another bike you have that fits well? (Keep in mind that frame angles can affect various measurements.)

Also, do not adjust your seat fore/aft to attain proper reach--that's what different stem sizes are for. Adjust the seat relative to the bottom bracket--not the head tube. This may be contributing to knee problems.

Sorry to hear about this. I used to work with another fitter and he would frequently go by numbers only and not look at what people were riding and how they rode. Twice we had to take back bikes that he shoehorned people into.

Your issue could be that of getting used to the bike, but at the very least they should have looked at your old bike when they are trying to size you into a new bike. You might ask around to experienced riders and see who is the a fit expert in your area. Make sure you bring both bikes for the fitting. This may cost a lot, but a nice fit is worth the money. If it turns out you cannot be easily fit to your tricross then insist on speaking to management to try and find a good resolution.

Yeah, head over to the shop with your bike and get it properly adjusted for you. Make sure you are wearing the shoes you normally bike in. Remember, bike shops have some very good knowledgeable employees, but also some flunkies that don't know what they are talking about...if you aren't satisfied with the knowledge of the person helping you, get someone else to help you.

As has been said, a longer stem might help make it more comfortable. You also may need to stretch and work on strengthening your back and abs...there may be nothing wrong with the fit, you're just not used to it.

Hot Potato, the experience with the bike shop is a different story all together.

Your bike shop is definately on a higher level than mine. I was never fitted or put on any kind of machine or even measured. They asked me what size I normally ride (I told them 60cm) and they put me on a 58cm just looking at me (I'm 6'2") and had me ride around the parking lot. When I told them I felt cramped on the bike within the first few minutes of riding around the parking lot their answer to this was to have someone higher up at the store (a manager) come out and tell me that the 58cm was indeed the right size. They acted insulted when I suggested that I ride a 60cm to see the difference between the two.

I came back after the two days for the build time and asked them to fit me to the bike before riding it home. Their answer to this was to have me ride around the parking lot again and then make zero changes (despite the seat height and positioning nowhere near what it should have been) and had to make adjustments on my own as I rode home the first day.

I went a week later to floor to see about the problems I was having with the fit and just got passed from one sales rep to another without getting any answers (the owner wasn't there). I went in once since then just to see if the wheels needed retensioning after developing a wobble in my rear wheel at 700 miles. I was met with a bad attitude by a mechanic there who told me it would take a week before they could even look at the wheel but didn't fail to mention that the nipples of my wheels were corroded and that wheels are ruined (which they are not).

Just the way I have been treated the times I have been in there they wont be getting any more of my business, ever. I really don't understand the attitude that I get from this place. I'm not a skinny CAT-1 racer like all the guys who work there, but I'm not a shlump who's never ridden a bike before either. I ride to save money, but mainly to crosstrain for Judo. I would never treat a athlete in my sport the way I was treated, especially if they are putting money in my pocket.

How do I adjust the seat relative to the bottom bracket? It wasn't even the right height when I rode it home from the bike shop. The BB on this bike is in a much more forward position to the BB on my old road bike which the BB was only slightly forward of the seat position.

cradduck:

you have my sympathies. Crappy service can really leave a bad taste. I am sure you can see why I patronize my local Specialized shop, and even pay more for some accessories at times. Good service deserves good customer support.

I am 6'1", 250 lbs. My tricross is a medium, 54 seat tube, 54.5 top tube. My Roubaix is a large, 56 seat tube, 56.5 top tube. Both have been fit to me by the same LBS fit guru in the same way. They feel almost identical to me as far as fit goes.

I just bought a Jamis Aurora, 57 frame (no fitting, this was the size they had that was closest to my size, at a different shop). The specialized shop didn't sell any touring bikes, or any steel framed bikes. If I wanted a bike to rack and fender and use in foul weather, all they could really offer me was another tri-cross. I didn't want to rack and fender the the tricross I had for foul weather, didn't want to buy another. Hence the Jamis from another shop. I have eyeballed the fit, measured some things on my other bikes, and tried to duplicate it. I go ride my tri-cross for a few hours. As soon as I get home, I hop on the Jamis. After two hours on the tri-cross, any fit difference between the two is very obvious. I then make a tweak or two, but never too many or too much. My goal is to eventually duplicate, as close as possible, my excellent fitting bikes by feel and a series of minor adjustments. I am not there yet, but am getting close.

If I can't do it, I could always bring the Jamis into the specialized shop and ask for fit help. I don't think the owner/fit guru would object, because I bought something he doesn't sell. That and the fact that I have bought multiple bikes and accessories from him. Right now I am curious to see if I can get it there on my own.

The fancy parts of the professional fit involved using a plumb line to line up my kneecap with the pedal when the pedal was horizontal to the floor, the seat was moved forward and aft to get the desired result, can't remember if cleats were also part of this. The angle meter was used to help set seat height when the pedal was at the bottom of the stroke, I don't know how many degrees less than full extension was used. A wider drop bar was used due to wider shoulders, the stem was raised and angle adjusted for a more comfortable riding position - I don't go aero, ever! Cleats and shoe inserts were adjusted to make the knee rise and fall vertically, no bow-legged pedaling.

http://www.smartcycles.com/images/fittin10.gif


http://www.smartcycles.com/fitting_explained.htm

So make sure your leg still has some flexion at the bottom of the pedal stroke, that your knee cap lines up with your forward pedal when parallel to the floor, that you don't have any knees out (bow-legged) pedaling, and adjust the handlebar and stem so that you are comfortable when your hands are on the brake hoods. that's about all the advice I can offer for do it yourself.

Funny timing on this thread. I had been working part time in an LBS that sells Specialized. As part of my "training" I was volunteered to be fitted so the other new employees could learn what it was about.

All of my bikes are older, steel and have 58/59cm top tubes, 60-62cm seat tubes. I am 6'1", 185 and have a 32" inseam. It was determined after the fitting, that I have a "freakishly long torso" and that I should ride either a 54cm or a 56cm road bike!:lol: There is NO WAY I could comfortably ride the bikes that I was supposed to fit on according to the LeMond/Fit Kit method (The shop uses both). When I told the fit guru what size I normally ride he just stared at me and said I was "nuts".

I think that there must be a bias, from a perormance standpoint, to smaller frames. Almost everyone that I saw getting fitted seemed like they should be on a bigger bike. I, however, AM NOT a performance oriented cyclist so maybe there should be a different fit method for the non-racers among us.

As for the OP, I am sorry to say that I tried an Tri-Cross Expert at 58 and felt crampped as well. I was considering purchasing one but passed after the ride. I guess I am a retro-grough afterall. :o Hope you are able to find a workable solution.

Hey, they told me my height came from my torso out of proportions to my legs too. I think those charts are wrong! (6'1", 32 inseem)

To raise/lower the seat, loosen the seatpost binder bolt at the top of the seat tube and slide the seatpost.
http://sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html#adjustment

Generally speaking, you want the position of the seat relative to the bottom bracket to be pretty much the same on all your bikes. You'll have to compensate for varied crank length though (e.g. for longer cranks, the seat should be lower--so you don't hyperextend at the bottom of the stroke--and further forward--so your knee and pedal line up at the front of the stroke).

Fore/aft position can be tweaked to riding style (e.g. MTBers sometimes like the seat back a little further).

No, that *is* freakishly short legs and a pretty long torso. You'd expect someone who is 5'8" to have about that inseam. My partner is 6'2" with a 32" inseam (and I have the same build but in the 5'6" version).

As a rule of thumb, a bike that you can just barely stand over safely will have a top tube that's almost long enough. The reach will probably be a smidge short and cramped feeling, but long drops and a long stem will help. Anatomic drops tend to suck because they often have a shorter reach than a traditional drop bar. Odds are you're in that same squeezy area that my partner is and there will be a lot of bikes ruled out because there is negative standover clearance.

A fair number of shops will try to put you on a bike with some standover space. Bad idea.

They told me the same, since i have the same measurements.

I ride a 58 as well

Rode a 56 and 57 before

http://www.rivbike.com/article/bike_...izing_position

and

http://www.rivbike.com/article/bike_...g_a_frame_size

All that matters is where the saddle and handlebars are in relation to where the pedals are. Obviously, if you're having pain problems, something must be different on the newer bike. The frame itself has nothing to do with it unless it is such that you can't get the saddle and the bars in the same position as you were used to on the previous bike. The frame only matters if it is so big or so small that you end up with not enough saddle and handlebar adjustment range and you run out of saddle rail or stem adjustment.

I guess we're all freaks! I'm also 6'1", 32 inseam. :rolleyes:

Short legged, long torso freaks of the world unite! Demand better bike fit!

Wow, am I glad I'm proportioned normally. I'm easy to fit a bike to.

I kinda get the feeling that the OP got treated pretty poorly by a bike shop with people who don't give a crap about fit. I'd be pissed.

I'm 6'1" and have a 32" inseam, 185# as well. I have 3 bikes, but only one I ride regularly to commute on. I did not have to "get used to it" or break it in. It felt great from day 1 and I got it for $200 at Dicks. It's a mountain bike, Diamondback outlook.

I would be suspicious if the bike doesn't seem to fit right off the showroom floor. I would not still be riding today if I had an uncomfortable bike. My roadbike is smooth, and brakes clean and changes gears nicely-- just not as comfortable as the MTB partly due to the narrow drop handle bars. The post by hot potato is helpful to partially explain how one goes about fitting the bike from a technical standpoint.

I think this is interesting... basically, I have heard so much about getting a "proper" fit from a bike store...
well I have found that they do things the same way as I would... get a general size frame and then start modifying it to fit you... ie. longer/shorter stem, stem extender, etc...

I think its quite possible for a customer to be more educated in fit (based on personal experience) than the salesman...

+1 on the above. In the shop that I was working in I saw a number of people be told that they "would get used to the position" when they became more fit. While a portion of this is true, I often wondered if the bikes would continue to get ridden if the customers found them uncomfortable after a short while. My guess was no.

I do have to say here that I also think the customers often had unrealisitc ideas as to what was important regarding riding a bike comfortably. I had one guy who's primary question was "What does it weigh?":rolleyes: He ended up buying a very light, very aggressive, very expensive, full carbon bike and fitting it with a hybrid stem because the saddle to bar drop was to aggressive for his fitness level. I had tried to steer him towards an entry level tricross or a flat bar style road bike before he got annoyed with me and sought out another sales person. He did not seem to think the extra 30-40lbs he was carrying on his body was something to consider as well. Anyway his money, his choice. I hope he enjoys it.

Looking at the 58 cm Tricross:

57.5 cm TT, 72.5 x 72.5. With a 72.5 head angle it can and probably should take a pretty long stem. That would be a looonnnnggg stem for a tall rider. Effective reach (parallel to ground from centerline of steering column) of something along the lines of 130 mm or even longer. Puts the bars out in a decent relationship with the front wheel. That could be a slightly shorter stem turned up. Have to take the stem angle into account.

Specialized tends to put these short stems on. Specialized indicates stock is a 110. That's pretty dang short! I ride a bike with a 54.8 cm TT and a 120 mm stem - handles great, fits great. Scale that up.

So. The stock stem is probably way short.

Handlebar width will make a big difference in back comfort. Rules of thumb aren't all that great, but too wide a bar always makes my back turn bad between my shoulder blades.

Handlebar drop is important. Can run relatively short reach with low bars and relatively long with high bars (ala rivendell). I'd probably be putting you with maybe 10 cm drop to begin with and see how you did.

Saddle height - I'd go up until it's too high and then back down a cm.

Saddle setback - more for flat areas and long distance, less for climbing and short distance with bursts of power. Usually I see the saddle forward farther than required. I generally run more than 3" setback. No idea how that plays out in KNOP scheme. Again, push back until oooppps, too far, then a cm forward of that. I'll also continue to adjust the compromise until I can get up hills spinning. Different bikes, different saddles, different levels of conditioning, different handlebar drop give me different results by just a little. Also, what the bike likes to do. For my go fast bike, I'm generally a bit forward of where I have a commuter/tourist/mellow bike. Gives more hand pressure at low power, but that's not a low power setup, it's a handling, sprint, push it bike.

Even very good shops tend to have a style of fitting they place on everyone. Or not fitting that they impose.

As to the correct size; well, maybe. In an old school racing machine, I'd be putting someone substantially over 6 ft on a 57.5 cm TT bike! I think the average height is around 5'10" and would ride a 55 to 55.5 cm TT in an old school racing fit. Again, with that 115/120 mm stem and a reasonable setback.

If you can get a goniometer (or however it's spelled) to get your knee bend measured (best to have a friend not in a hurry do it) then set it at 30 degrees. Then 25 degrees (lots higher saddle). Then perhaps 22 degrees (too high for almost anyone I suspect) and feel the difference. That will get you close. Ride around a bit. Scoot back, scoot forward. Adjust to be comfortable on the saddle with your legs working well. Just put your hands on the bars where they're comfortable, even out on the hoods. Then get the bar height comfortable, again without worrying about where your hands are. Probably way out on the hoods! Then figure out where you think the hoods should be and where the flats should be. Get a stem that puts the bar there. Go ride and start tweeking.

Once you've got a good position and get used to it, you'll likely find that position on any bike you get. I tried the rivbike big frame / high bar system. I kept tweeking it. Then it was comfortable finally. Leaned it up against my usual bike and found the position within millimeters, including drop!! So a good position trains you to like it.

Good luck. If you were right close I'd help, but I'm a long way off.