I think I want a shorter threadless stem for my commuter but I'm not sure if I should be changing that part or simply adjusting something else.

I've noticed that for my ideal body position my hands are on the ramps of my drop bars. I prefer to have my hands on the hoods, but I don't like my body position as much then.

So i figure I should either move the seat forward or shorten the stem. Moving the seat forward proved a poor choice; I seemed to burn my legs out really quickly. So I'm now thinking that I should try a shorter stem. The one i've got on my Raleigh One-Way is 105mm and I have no idea what the rise is or how I should measure it.

I figure that I'd like the handlebars 25-30mm closer than they are now. Do I just go look for a 75-80mm stem? Do those exist? Would I be better off to look for a stem with a steeper rise and a similar length?

I don't feel like I need to bring the bars up any higher, just closer.

There's loads that goes into a good fit, and it can be slightly counter-intuitive. I don't know how much you know, so excuse me ahead of time if I say things you already know.

To begin with, as for saddle position...this is the most important aspect of bike-fitting. Your saddle really has one place it should be, depending on your preference. The term used is KOPS (Knee Over Pedal Spindle). You can google this, but a quick description is that the bottom of your kneecap should line up with the spindle of your pedal with your crank at 3:00 pm...you need a plum bob to really be accurate.

Of course, this is tricky, because time trial bikes and triathalon bikes will have the rider more in front of pedal spindle, and hill climb bikes (like MTBs) will be a bit behind. You have to do some experimentation to find out where you want to be, and it sounds like you've done some.

Most road riders, recreational and commuting, prefer to be a bit behind the pedal spindle with their knee. It makes for a more comfortable spin, and it allows them to more effectively use the bio-dynamics to keep weight off of their hands and arms.

The second thing I worry about is saddle height. The majority of riders I see with bad fits have their seats too high. It seems like most people have heard the dogma about their saddle being high enough that their leg is almost extended at the bottom of the stroke. They worry that they don't want to put it too low.

If you look at pro rider's fits it looks like their saddles are incredibly low compared to most recreational road riders. Think about an efficient pedal stroke with your heel DOWN at the bottom, and you want more than just a slight bend at the bottom. Rules of thumb I throw out here, because it's where it feels good. Like I said, though, have some bend, don't worry about bend, you really don't want to be close to straightening your leg out. You'll know it's too low if you start experiencing knee pain after a few miles. Too high exhibits hamstring pain and tightening fairly quickly.

Those two concepts will go a long way towards the third, which isn't so much a fit issue as it is a posture thing. I meet so many riders who sit their butt on their seat like it's a chair. Do this and you'll find modern bikes difficult to fit for anyone except the exceptionally long-armed. What you need to focus on is a straight back...I mean, board straight. Then bend at your middle, allowing your pelvis to rotate forward, until you reach the bars. I almost guarantee you that you will realize you have 2 more inches of reach than you thought you did. See here: https://www2.trainingbible.com/joesbl...e-posture.html

The kicker is that this posture is not natural for most people. It will feel good immediately, but after a few miles (or less) down the road you might start finding your body slouching. It will also effect how your saddle is tilted, which will require some conscience and work. You might soon realize that your core is not as strong as you thought it was. You might find that riding slight hills and really pushing the tempo makes it feel better and makes proper posture more easily attainable.

Over time you will develop muscles to hold the proper posture, and you will develop flexibility. It took me months upon months, but now I, a guy with short arms and supernaturally tight muscles, can't get my top tube long enough!!!

The last thing you should consider is a longer/shorter stem. If you apply all of the above, and spend a few hundred miles breaking in the concepts correctly, and then find you are still reaching too far THEN and only THEN do I think you should look to that recourse.

Fit does not come easily. Working with a bike fitter will make it happen faster, as they know exactly what to look for, but it costs upwards of $150. It's well worth it if you have it.

I think the most revolutionary aspect of posture for me was realizing my seat needed to be lower. When I lowered it my reach increased because I could rotate my pelvis without bad things happening.

Give it a shot and let me know what you think.

Don't try to make too much of a change at once. I would try a 90 or 95mm stem first before you go to something much shorter. It will be harder to find a shorter on anyway( I have a 65mm on one of my bikes, it was tough to find). Shortening your cockpit by 25mm is a BIG change.
Also try to get someone to take a picture of you with your hands on the hoods after you adjust your saddle to knee over spindle like the previous poster mentioned. Most people are comfortable with their bodies leaned forward about 45 degrees, and that would be a good position to try to start.

Climbhoser: like you said my saddle position is correct so I took some time to think about what you wrote about body position and realized that is the answer for me.

When I followed your trainingbible link I saw the comparison pic between the two riders and it immediately clicked.



my posture is (soon to be was) like the guy on the right. I wasn't tilting my pelvis and keeping my back straight. So this morning on the ride in I took some time in the driveway to figure out how to sit like that and how it feels and you were absolutely right, Its like I gained a couple inches of reach.

I noticed over the 6 miles I commute that I was breathing more freely and at a lower rate and was able to keep my cadence up where i've been trying to get it to for the whole ride. About 5 minutes after I got off I felt like someone punched me in the stomach...my core is obviously weak. moreso than I thought.

So now I'm amped to work on my body position and strengthen my core...snowboarding season starts soon and I'm gonna have uber balance if this strengthens it.

Yeah, it ain't easy, and stretching the hamstrings helps oodles!

One thing, I know I pounded the idea of "lower saddle" already, but when you rotate your pelvis it actually makes this even more important. Most people might fit the height with their pelvis back, and be 1"-2" too high with their pelvis rotated forward.

Be aware of it next time you ride, and try and think whether it's really low enough or not. I seriously keep moving my saddle lower, and everytime I do I find it easier and easier to roll my hips forward.

Of course, there is a point where you get too low, but don't be afraid until you hit that...it's surprisingly low, even if it feels weird to try at first.

Glad I could help you!

that makes perfect sense and I will definitely check my height again now that I am in a better position.

Where do folks go to learn this kinda stuff? I mean those who aren't here Is there like a class or something I can take to get schooled in proper riding form and stuff?

I too found Climbhoser's contribution interesting and helpful, and the link to the pic very illustrative.

I bought my first road bike in 20 years this year (and only second if you don't count what I rode as a kid), so I've been looking for info on fit.

I'm hoping someone can expand on what's already here. Specifically, how does the seat-to-bar drop measurement get mixed in with the other settings already discussed?

Thanks!

Saddle to bar drop is pretty ambiguous. "Ideal" bike fit (take that for what it's worth) puts your typical recreational roadie at about a 45 degree back angle. If you watch pro racing, like the Tour de France, you'll notice much more acute angles than 45 on the racers. Sometimes it even looks like they're effing parallel to the ground!

Issues that arise are not that different than what I mentioned before: length and strength of arms and back, limberness and also the comfort of the neck at different levels of "craning."

It has been shown in great detail that the biggest limitation to speed (aside from the engine) is aerodynamics. Spending money on better tires and lightweight parts reaches the point of diminishing returns quickly. Much quicker than spending money on aerodynamics. The quickest, and cheapest route to proper aerodynamics is to get a proper bike fit.

Interestingly enough, Lance Armstrong himself actually raised his time trial bike position, which took away from aerodynamics, just so he could open up his ribcage for better breathing!!!

Regardless, the bottom line is saddle to bar drop is really, ultimately dependent on the rider. My commuter rig for a 35 mile RT commute has Albatross bars 1" above the saddle...showing how much I care about aerodynamics

I also have a 'cross bike with bars and saddle about even, and my aggressive roadie has bars about 2" low, which is REALLY low to me, and I can ride on that bike for about 2.5 hrs. max before I can't take the position anymore.

I think it's better to find comfort than try and beat the wind, unless you're racing, and even then you start losing in other areas like breathing and power output due to better biomechanics.

deez,

As for learning all of this I've been a bike geek for a long time. You spend too much time surfing the 'net, listening to people like me, disseminating good information from bad information and participating in discussions at your LBS and eventually you start getting a picture. Oh yeah, a good buddy of mine from high school is Mike Creed, pro racer on Rock Racing. Can't say I haven't picked anything up from him

When you ride those albatross bars, how is your body position different? In my mind it would be very upright almost like sitting on a chair like you had mentioned earlier. I've never ridden albatross bars so I don't know firsthand.

Thanks for all the info you've given us on this its much appreciated.

This might sound odd, but --

As a tuba player, and being always aware of how my breathing is affected by my posture, and having done lots of yoga-influenced stretching over the years, that ^^^ part makes perfect sense. When I set myself up so that I can fully breathe better, everything else falls into place.

Same with what you said about Armstrong raising his position. Being super-aero doesn't matter if you can't get enough fuel into the engine.

ya know I never thought of it in relation to music. I'm a bari Sax and trombone player and When you have crappy posture you get weak sound and can't support your tone with your diaphragm. Great Analogy.

I hope I'm not hijacking the OP's thread, but I'm finding this discussion very useful.

Some followup questions for whoever cares to indulge me.

1) I've heard about the 45-degree back angle for fitting purposes. My question: is this with the hands in the drops, on the hoods or on the bar?

2) Likewise, I've heard of how the bar should obscure your view of the front hub on a well-fitting bike, but this is with the hands where on the bars?

3) If you're at the point where it's time to lengthen (or shorten) the stem, how much can you lengthen (shorten) before it's time to throw in the towel and get a different size bike? And what are the drawbacks when you start getting to the extremes? e.g., twitchy handling with really short stems, etc.

4) Finally, not considering the drops, where are your hands most naturally supposed to fall--on the hoods, on the ramps/flats or on the bar part?

I suspect that a lot of this amounts to "guidelines" or starting points and that each individual has to find their individual setup for their body type and type of riding. But I'm asking questions because I'd like to minimize my blundering about.

Thanks!

JT

The saddle angle can have an effect as well. I remember back when I was first playing with my own fits and how I ended up with the saddle angle being so extreme that I figured I was doing something wrong. So I put it back closer to level and then tried to ride in a way that kept the pressure off the soft part between and forward of the sit bones. When I did this my breathing was TERRIBLE! So I soon realized that to hell with what my saddle angle is. I'm just built a certain way and require the nose to be pointed down at around 5 degrees to avoid pressure on the delicate area and that's all there is to it.

The point here being that saddle angle and comfort MAY be playing a role in how you hold your pelvis and how well you can straighten your back. I'm not saying it is but it's worth paying some attention to what your own body is telling you when you try to stretch or form it into a new posture and tuning the bike to support and encourage that posture rather than fight against it.

I just got my replacement Tricross today, and had it fit by a guy who really seemed to know what he was doing. The weird thing? The seat is more than 5cm (I measured) higher than my old (identical) bike, and the stem much lower. Meaning there is now about a 7-8 cm drop from saddle to bars whereas they used to be about level.

I was comfortable before, and I think I'm comfortable now (though it feels different!), but I notice in this higher position it seems very easy to go fast, like it's just natural to put a lot of power out.

Not sure how it will go for touring, we will see.

Steve

Typically fitters use the hoods for this. However, it is a ROUGH guide, and I don't think the angle is effected largely from hoods to drops, depending on the bar of course.

The reason they use the hoods is that it's the most ergonomic way to grip the bars, and thus if fit to the bike with the hoods as the hand placement it will be the place most cyclists spend the most time. Drops are there for windy situations and descents, and flats for a bit of relief.

Definitely a "guideline" in the classic sense...because it doesn't factor in arm length vs. inseam vs. torso at all. For instance, I have short arms, but on my roadie I have a 100mm stem and I'm definitely stretched out, but the front hub is still in front of the bar.

I think there's much more that goes into picking stem length than this old rule of thumb.

Depending on individual anatomy, I really think the range for road bikes that makes sense is 90mm to 120mm stem length. If you need longer than that in a stem then you need a bigger bike. If you need smaller than 90, then you need a smaller bike.

There are exceptions, but modern framebuilders are trying to address this already. The big one I can think of is the frame that forces the user to use an 80mm stem, but going smaller would make it impossible for the user to get the bars high enough. It becomes an awful compromise game in these cases. Bikes like the Specializes Sequoia are prime examples of solutions to this problem.

It's personal, and it's where you like to ride. I mentioned before the most ergonomic part of the bar is the hoods...or even the drops, really, with the least ergonomic (on the wrists and hand) being the top of the bar. Some guys set their bikes up to be in the hoods 90% of the time. Old-skool fit says drops...modern fit, as I also mentioned before, says hoods. It's kind of an in-between. It allows moderately aero-position with approx. 45 degree back, but gives more aero if the drops are used, and also gives a relief position on the tops.

But this is just current dogma, and to a degree it makes sense, but that's not to say that arguments can't be made in different directions.

Thanks for going into detail on that. I alluded to this above, but didn't dig at it.

As an example, using a Brooks B-17 on a road bike, there is no tilt forward enough that allows me to rotate my pelvis adequately on a drop bar road bike. The Team Pro is better, but still not best.

Certain saddles and certain angles are ideal. I used an E3 ti from Performance and felt like there was nothing inhibiting me from rolling my pelvis forward. It's definitely worth playing with.

Forgot to mention issues with "wrong" sized stems.



Short definitely leads to twitchy steering. Not as big a deal for general commuting or light-loaded touring (why you might see short, high rise stems on many commuters and tourers), but definitely an issue for criteriums, pacelines, track racing, etc...



Long stems make steering sluggish. IMHO too long is better than too short, but can still be bad.





deez, yes, I am bolt upright like Yehuda Moon www.yehudamoon.com



I have a 140mm stem on there to compensate, but I'm still very upright with a sprung saddle. Like I said, I have an aggressive road bike in the garage, but riding every day makes me lust more for comfort than speed.



As for my 140mm stem, while 90-120 is what I consider an ok range for road bikes, the gap increases for mountain bikes or upright bikes to 80-140. For me this is because less weight is typically placed as far forward, so it doesn't effect the steering as much. That and the fact that on a flat bar and a 140mm stem your hands are about the same distance as they would be on the hoods of a drop bar and a 100mm stem.

I've got gone more Q although slightly off-topic.


I'm trying to decide on a seat/handlebar combo for a bike that i'm building up for light touring and weekend day trips. Do you think that would be more suited to drop bars with a narrower saddle or albatross/mustache bars with a sprung saddle?

I know its gonna come down to personal preference but I'd like to hear what you folks think. I want to be able to be comfortable on this for long periods of cruising but my concern is that I wont be able to handle the some of the bad ass hills around here with a relaxed riding position. Can you still stand up to climb hills easily with albatross bars?

Only thing the A bar inhibits for me is the ability to get a really low, aero position.

I stand out of the saddle for climbing all the time. You can, like I did, get a really long stem for your A bar and still be out over the front a bit. Some folks make the argument that you use your biomechanics better with a bit lower, more stretched out position like you can get with drop bars...I guess it recruits the glute muscles better.

It's probably true.

Done well with the right frame (lots of headtube and a shorter TT) you can put a drop bar on very comfortably, though, and still be pretty upright.

It is personal preference. Don't be afraid of either, it's just how you like to be. I've seen randonneurs and audax riders using A bars, but the majority use drop bars like the Nitto Noodle.

If I built an Audax bike I would have a hard time deciding between A bars and drop bars. To me it would be whether it was going to be used for true, Audax riding or just Audax-style riding. I frequently do 60+ miles on a Saturday, and I've been using my roadie, but I just don't like riding it anymore. I'm thinking a bike more like the Salsa Casseroll or the Soma Smoothie ES.

Since I already have an "Around town" and commuting bike with A bars, I'll probably put drop bars on a bike like this.

I can be comfortable, in fact very comfortable, on drop bar bikes. I'm just RIDICULOUSLY comfortable on A bar bikes.

I also think if I were riding a different 20 mile route to work everyday that I wouldn't be as concerned, but my mind easily starts focusing inwards when passing the same scenery day after day, and I start nitpicking everything from my neck pains to my seat centering.

Also, don't get too hung up on sprung saddle vs. not. I did a sprung saddle in the same width as I was using on my drop bar commuter...Brooks B-17 champion standard on the drop bar commuter, Brooks B-17 Champion Flyer on the A bar commuter. Lotsa folks use the Flyer on their drop bar touring bikes...I see them frequently on Surly Long Haul Truckers.

I don't recommend ANY other sprung saddle. No reason you can't use a comfy saddle on either bike, it comes to a lot of nitpicking and testing at that point.