Anyone WWR in Real Bad Snow/Ice?
 

This winter is going to be my first that I plan to stick w/ bike commuting through the winter. I live in New England, winter around here is real winter – snow, ice, etc. I know generally speaking wrong way riding is frowned upon, but I’m thinking of the days when 4x4s are sliding off the road, and traction without studs is nil. We have days every winter where people in vehicles of all sorts are sliding all over and off of the road, smashing into things left and right.

I’m thinking on those days, riding against traffic may be safer than riding with it. If I see someone sliding down the road at me unable to turn or stop, I can take some sort of evasive action. Of course, on these days people slide across the road and off it, so I could still be hit from behind, but I’m trying to minimize that danger. I mostly only have to worry about that angle on and just after right hand turns.

I think the “flow of traffic” this is less applicable here, because on the back roads on days like this cars won’t be exceeding 20MPH (usually more like 5-10) and I probably won’t be exceeding 10 even with studded tires. Also, on the type of day I’m referring to the roads are fairly empty – most businesses as well as all schools are closed. Where I work we don’t take snow days, and on these days only the 4x4s make it in.

What do the rest of you do on the really bad snow days, on rural back roads that are poorly maintained?

I know, it’s too early for this. I saw some yuletide signage on the way in today, and it got me thinking I need to order studs for the new winter bike, a 29er, and this is where the thought led me.

Dan, sorry, but honestly, I think riding the wrong way is an incredibly dumb thing to do, and doubly so under sketchy conditions. The main reason why I think it's generally a stupid idea is that you're doing something unexpected. It doesn't matter if the speed is 20 mph, it doesn't matter if it's 10 mph or 5 mph -- you are coming from somewhere that drivers do not expect you to be coming from, and there's a momentary "wha huh?" reaction before they can take action to deal with you. That extra moment a driver's brain needs to process a wrong-way cyclist, just to figure out what they're dealing with, could be a crucial moment for you.

And as far as seeing it coming and taking evasive action...evasive action meaning what? Where are you going to go? Are you so very sure that you can predict where an out-of-control -- let's repeat those words, they're key here, OUT-OF-CONTROL -- vehicle is going to go, and that you will be able to take evasive action? Seems to me just as likely, if not more so, that you'll guess wrong and end up with "Rode the wrong way and zigged when he shoulda zagged" on your gravestone.

+1

The cars you can see losing it are not your worry...it's those that lose it when they are right on top of you that are the danger. That said, I have NEVER been hit riding in the winter (and I have been doing it for a lot of years). I've gone down a few times, but always due to my own stupidity or the sneakiness of the conditions. (Ice is sneaky, don't let anyone tell you otherwise!)

There are places in our fair city where I wouldn't want to be stopped on an icy day. I will plan out a route that has no traffic, particularly in places with stop lights on a downhill.

But you never want to be going the wrong way. People will slam on their brakes when they see you, and they are likely to lose control and hit you. I see people inappropriately slamming on their brakes every time it snows, particularly in the early season before people figure out how to drive in the snow. If they do this and you are going in the same direction as they are, at least your relative speed is lower.

I mostly agree with the stuff that's been said above, except...

I think that behaving like a pedestrian on the sidewalk at slow speeds is OK. If you're going 5 mph and you can stop and turn easily (unlikely in poor conditions) then the sidewalk is an OK place to be, going either direction. But riding the wrong way in a traffic lane is a bad idea in good conditions and a worse idea in bad conditions.

I can see where you're coming from in this aspect. However, WWR's are as common as people riding the correct way around here, so I'm not sure how big the "wha, huh?" factor is. Of course, on the days of which I speak, seeing _any_ bike is likely to cause a "wha, huh?".

Evasive action meaning over the snowbank and into the woods. It's worked for me in the past, even somewhat recently, although in that instance it was over the snowbank and onto the sidewalk. The car plowed into the snowbank. As a kid growing up on the BMX bike that was standard protocol - ride facing traffic and get onto and if possible over the snowbank when someone is skidding down the road toward you. Where I'm talking about now has no sidewalks.



It doesn't require being much of an expert to see a car skidding in a relatively straight line, even if starting to spin, and figure it'll continue on that path. If it doesn't, it's unlikely the driver will aim for the snowbank the cyclist just dove over. I'm not meaning I'll swerve into the middle of the road trying to slalom the oncoming traffic.

When cycling at any degree of speed I agree completely to ride with traffic. When moving at pedestrian speed, and on the lookout for traffic, I wonder if in certain situations it isn't safer to act as a pedestrian is all.

I totally agree as well. I rode last Winter in a suburb of Buffalo NY. We get somewhere between 125 and 150 inches of snow each year. Our snow tends to dump in 6 to 12 inch increments between 1 am and 5 am (lake effect snow). In the morning I'd look outside and see how the plows had been doing keeping up with the AM snow. IF the roads looked descent I'd ride, it the roads were misarable, I'd take the Swedish car with top notch snow tires. There are times when 4 wheels is infinitely better than 2 wheels. I only had to take the car about a dozen times the entire Winter. Some days it wasn't the snow, but the high wind (45 to 80 MPH wind is also not good on 2 wheels). I had one afternoon where it started snowing earlier than expeced that there was about 6" of snow on the ground (it always is less deep in the road). That was not a fin ride home. Where the cars had driven there were tracks that pretty much made it to the road surface below. I had to ride large portions right in the middle of traffic. I know I have the right to take the lane, but I don't liek holding everyone up. Also the cars now had a hard time getting around as the roads were just awful. Luckily where were some spots where the snow was blowing around less and the sides of the roads were a bit clearer so I could get over and let the cars pass.

Know your limits and know the limits of your equipement. If the roads are cleary not good, then find an alternative form of transportation that day. At least where I know that in a few hours the snow will stop and the plows will catch up and the roads will be excellent again. Sometimes it is frustrating that the ride in is terrible but by the ride home the roads are completely clear and the sun came out for a bit. The afternoon might have made for a nice ride... it just has to wait till the next day.

Happy riding,
André

your better off going with the flow and if the day is really bad enough, you will likely be faster than the cars.

There is tempting Fate and there is kicking Fate in the sack. Your aiming sack high.

That's a good point. The more I think about it the more I realize cars are not doing 20MPH on the days I'm speaking of. Even 4x4 trucks w/ rugged tires, loaded w/ weight are not going 20MPH (since that's my winter driver, this is first hand experience). I very well may be every bit as fast if not faster than traffic on these days. That's the first point that's been brought up that would be a 100% reason, in my eyes, to ride with traffic on these days. It'd also cause me to ride faster, rather than slower. If I'm going at traffic planning an over-the-snowbank drive, I'm going walking speed. If I'm going as fast or faster than traffic, no need.

That's great! Well said.

:lol::roflmao2:

It helps to have telepathy in the winter too, so you can force cars off the road and into trees...not that I'd know anything about that. :innocent:

Don't ride against traffic, please. Get a mirror. If the roads are that awful, can you ride the grass or sidewalk?
On one particularly awful stretch of road, I used the center median, very unpleasant ride, but way better than trying to try the shoulder.

A mirror would be come ineffective in about 30 seconds on the type of day in question. No way will it give me the kind of visual I'd need to assess that a car is skidding at me and I need to bail over the snowbank. One of my bikes had a mirror for a while. I didn't care for it - I prefer to listen and do regular head checks.

I wish I could. The road I'm thinking of has no sidewalk, nor do any of the alternatives. There's also no grass - it's snowbanks and then woods or people's lawns, which are usually covered by a fair amount of snow anyway.

I see where you're coming from, but you seem to be thinking city. I'm talking rural, small town, doesn't-even-have-it's-own-police-station backroads. No sidewalks, no medians, no grass shoulders.

So why deliberately make it worse? The "Wha huh?" factor is there, believe it.

Yeah, I also did some incredibly stupid things as a kid. I survived, no doubt in part due to the caution of others who were looking out for stupid kids doing stupid stunts. As a kid, I can distinguish between a prudent action and a foolish action that I get away with.

That sounds like where I live. Unless your annual snowfall is pretty paltry, you're not gonna be riding over those snowbanks, and given the way that highway plows throw it up, you'll just bounce off if you try to ride into 'em.

But you do what you want. You asked what people thought of wrong-way riding in winter, and not one person thought it was a good idea. Now you sound like you're trying to argue your way around to doing it anyway. If you're just going to do it anyway, I'm not sure why you bothered to post.

Huh? I and my take-a-look would beg to differ. On icy roads the last thing you need to be doing is swiveling your head around...save doing so for your head checks just before making changes in your road position. A GOOD mirror is a fantastic tool for enhancing your situational awareness while at the same time keeping your bod & bike stable. Futzing around on slick surfaces is gonna get you hurt much faster than the rare car coming from behind and losing control. :rolleyes:

When the conditions are this bad, I'm usually in the right tire rut moving at traffic speed. I see no conceivable advantage to going the wrong way.

We all did stupid things as a kid. Since this particular thing has saved my hide, I'm not so sure it was stupid. You're entitled to your opinion though.

The annual snowfall is not paltry. Nowhere did I suggest riding over the snowbanks. I have no misconceptions of being able to ride over the snowbanks. I have first hand experience, however, on climbing over them - both is situations where there was time to drag the bike and in situations when the bike had to be left behind. Also, the roads I’m talking about are not plowed by highway plows, they’re plowed by normal pickup trucks.

Of course I'll do what I want. I asked what other people do, and for opinions. You sound as though you're upset I don't consider your opinion gospel and that I am still considering how I'll handle my situation after you and a few others disagreed with my initial thoughts. At least one person here has come up with an example that I hadn't thought of, which made it seem prudent to me to ride with traffic. That's the type of response I am looking for.

People saying that something is stupid without reasons to back it up don't carry a lot of weight with me. From what I can tell, your only reason is the "wha huh" factor. I'm not sure how much the bikes direction will affect that factor that is in this area, especially in the snow with the bike going 5MPH. I'm not even sure the cars will be able to tell what direction the bike is going in that situation.

I meant that the mirror would ice/snow/fog up in seconds. If it wouldn't I could certainly see it's use in this situation. BTW, that out of control car isn't at all rare in these parts. It's often intentional, as people play around driving sideways in the snow. It's actually quite common. And fun. Not that I'd know or anything.

Similar to the point Ban Guzzi made, and I think the best point made in this thread yet. That actually may be the deciding factor that keeps me with traffic all the time. If the roads are that bad I'm keeping up with it, and if I'm not they're not that bad.

"Upset"? Please, you're really not that central to my life. I'll say it again since you seem to still be in doubt: do what you wanted to do. You didn't ask "what am I allowed to do", you asked "do you all think this is a good idea", and that's the question that people answered. The overwhelming consensus is that no, it's not a good idea. You responded to a couple of posts, including mine, with a "but but but I don't think it works that way" sort of response, which always sounds to me like someone who's trying to talk themselves into something and to get others to agree. Maybe I was wrong about that, whatever. I gave you my reasons, I'm not going to argue with you about whether they're valid, but as I said, if you don't perceive the danger in the situation, I'm not sure why you bothered to ask in the first place.

I gave you reasons, so don't dissemble.

Uhhhh, I'd be utterly astonished if they could not. Something moving against traffic is jarring, to say the least. I do plenty of driving in both urban and rural settings, and I base my answer on my own perceptions and how I see drivers react to wrong-way traffic. If that's not good enough for you, then go your merry way and best of luck to you.

I'm hoping to still have a job to ride to this winter, but you guys are getting me pumped up for snow. I rode two Wisconsin winters, 10 rural miles each way.

They don't plow all 5 lanes of the major road near me, I think I'll take the unplowed lane and hopefully that will work out for me. Although one of the first years we were here, there was a Jeep Cherokee on its side in the unplowed lane. Guess 4wd doesn't let you drive all that fast after all.

hmmm, that sounds more like telekinesis than telepathy ;)
although both would probably be favorable for the op