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Originally Posted by Silverexpress
(Post 7961028)
I recieved an Email from Tom Regan, one of a few whose working on making a South Eastern Michigan city bike friendly. The city of Royal Oak is about 8 miles West of GM's Technical Center. Below is his latest report on how it's going with the advocacy....
I just want to bring into light how the economy is affecting cycling here in Michigan. I'm sure if one or all the Big Three go bankrupt we can pretty much erase any future progress from the work below off the face of the Earth for a time being..... Of course, this is just my thinking for the basis for Mr. Hoover's reply, but then again..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Biking and Walking in Royal Oak From: Tom Regan Sent: Sat 11/29/08 10:30 AM To: This is an update about our campaign to improve conditions for bicyclists and pedestrians in Royal Oak. Our task force met with Royal Oak City Manager Tom Hoover and members of his staff on Tuesday, November 25th. We discussed four items. We gave Mr. Hoover and his staff literature from the League of American Bicyclists on how a city can seek certification as a "Bicycle Friendly Community," http://www.bikeleague.org/programs/b...a/communities/ . We suggested that winning this certification should be our long-term goal. We asked Mr. Hoover if the city would hire an outside consultant to write a Non-Motorized Transporation Plan. We estimated that this would cost about $40,000. Mr. Hoover and his staff agreed that Royal Oak would benefit from writing a non-motorized transporation plan, and that it should be done by an outside consultant. However, Mr. Hoover noted that Royal Oak (like nearly all Michigan cities) faces an extremely tight budget. Mr. Hoover stated that our task force should investigate thoroughly if any outside funding sources exist before asking the city commission the question. Several task force members agreed to investigate possible funding sources. If you know of any possible funding sources please let me know immediately by responding to this email. We asked Mr. Hoover about scheduled street repavings that offered immediate opportunities for making streets more bicycle-friendly, such as road diets and bike lanes. The city engineer agreed to investigate this. We discussed special needs and opportunities along Woodward Avenue. Heather Carmona of the Woodward Avenue Action Association agreed to investigate potential funding sources and potential cooperation with neighboring cities. The task force will meet again in mid-December to report on our separate searches for possible funding sources. Reminder, please join us at the next Royal Oak School Board meeting to speak at public comment. Our purpose it to explain why a Non-Motorized Transportation Plan would benefit Royal Oak school children and to ask the school board to support the effort: Thursday, December 11 7:00 pm 1123 Lexington Blvd., Royal Oak, MI 48073 Reminder, please write letters to the editor and call on Royal Oak to take steps to improve bike and pedestrian safety: Royal Oak Mirror ksmith@hometownlife.com Royal Oak Review clangrill@candgnews.com Royal Oak Daily Tribune editor@dailytribune.com Oakland Press vop@oakpress.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The bottom line is that here in the US, we have long subsidized roadways specifically designed for the auto while all but excluding cycle specific or cycle friendly designs. The 1956 Highway act for instance was supposedly for defense, yet that nearly exclusive system is now dedicated to the motoring public. Where is the "bicycle act?" |
Originally Posted by Roody
(Post 7970294)
Unfortunately, most people's impressions of cars and the autoworkers were formed in childhood, and haven't changed since. Two specifics are the beliefs that US cars are low quality and that unions are strong defenders of lazy overpaid workers. These beliefs are at the level of superstition or mythology. No appeal to reality is likely to change them.
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People grudgingly swallowed the need for a banking bailout rather than take the hit. You can viscerally not want to bail out a banking CEO that makes millions, but you can also prefer that to seeing your $10/hour job wiped out because that millionaire banker didn't get bailed out.
We are seeing a correction to a massive bubble that came from many past mistakes. We can go ahead a take the Hoover approach or we can hold our noses and try and mitigate the disaster. If you want to just let the chips fall as they may, then let the carmakers fold and start reading "The Grapes of Wrath" for tips on your new lifestyle. If you want to mitigate the banking disaster, then think about the impact on the banks you are trying to bail out when the big three default on their outstanding $100 billion (with a B!) bonds. Think about trying to fix the housing mess when all of the workers at the big three and most of their suppliers go into foreclosure and all of the big three retirees stop spending money. Not making a loan to the big three now makes the previous $700 billion banking bailout an exercise in futility. Somehow ending the worst financial crisis since 1932 has turned into a referendum on the quality of a 1983 Ford Tempo and the poor fuel economy of SUVs. Maybe we should just mail the keys to the US to China and stop making payments. We are too dumb to live. |
Originally Posted by BroadSTPhilly
(Post 7970570)
p&r
No religion, barely any politics, and very mature discussion, so I say not yet. And from the way these folks are maintaining some level of respect and dignity, never. |
Originally Posted by Roody
(Post 7970294)
Unfortunately, most people's impressions of cars and the autoworkers were formed in childhood, and haven't changed since. Two specifics are the beliefs that US cars are low quality and that unions are strong defenders of lazy overpaid workers. These beliefs are at the level of superstition or mythology. No appeal to reality is likely to change them.
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The fact is that the way the big three have been doing business for decades is not sustainable in a global economy.
(CNSNews.com) – The Big Three automakers are forced to pay 85- to 95-percent of union wages and benefits to members of the United Auto Workers union who aren’t working – even if their plants have been closed. This, added to the CEO's taking three separate corporate jets to congress begging to be saved is travesty at it's finest! WTF! Three weeks ago, the top three were asking for $25 billion with no plan whatsoever to how they will not be continuing as "business ads usual". Yesterday that number increased by nine billion ($34 billion). The system is flawed from the CEO down to the front line worker. Having said all that, I don't want to see 10's of thousands of people lose there jobs. But this can not be allowed to continue! |
Originally Posted by riddei
(Post 7971853)
The fact is that the way the big three have been doing business for decades is not sustainable in a global economy.
SOURCE This, added to the CEO's taking three separate corporate jets to congress begging to be saved is travesty at it's finest! WTF! Three weeks ago, the top three were asking for $25 billion with no plan whatsoever to how they will not be continuing as "business ads usual". Yesterday that number increased by nine billion ($34 billion). The system is flawed from the CEO down to the front line worker. Having said all that, I don't want to see 10's of thousands of people lose there jobs. But this can not be allowed to continue! 10 minutes after the automaker CEO's left their intense grilling with congress Citi Bank rolled into D.C., were handed 20 Billion Dollars and flew out on their corporate jets. No questions asked. What is the difference exactly? Some good questins: Are you going to keep making no money down loans to people with no means to repay the loan? Are you going to keep buying CDO's which you have no idea what the underlying assets are worth? What are you going to do with the $20 billion we just handed you? You know....simple questions like that. |
Originally Posted by DoB
(Post 7971173)
We are too dumb to live.
Perhaps this is our wakeup call... |
Originally Posted by DoB
(Post 7971919)
10 minutes after the automaker CEO's left their intense grilling with congress Citi Bank rolled into D.C., were handed 20 Billion Dollars and flew out on their corporate jets. No questions asked.
What is the difference exactly? Where do the bailouts end? "Integrity is doing what is right whether someone is watching or not". (My layman's quote). |
Originally Posted by riddei
(Post 7971990)
Where do the bailouts end? If 2 of the 3 car companies fail in the US you will see unemployment rates in states like Michigan and Ohio ranging from 20% to 30%. Those are the kind of numbers that lead to civil unrest and political extremism if left unchecked. The reaction? 'My 83 Ford Tempo was unreliable so screw 'em'. Sounds reasonable. It is clear to me watching the political climate that people are not grasping what is coming. If you are not in the industries being strangled by the dearth of credit available right now then you have not noticed that sales of equipment and trucks are off by upwards of 70% in October and November year to year. Yu have not noticed that the flat screen TV market is completely glutted and glass screen making companies are idled. You have not noticed that US and Europe car sales are down 45% year to year in the last month. This is not a 'small decline' in GDP. This is off a cliff. I guess this is too bad for the layperson who is not watching internal data. Business as usual is over. |
Originally Posted by lil brown bat
(Post 7970907)
Roody, you're missing the point that is most crucial in the current situation. You can argue that UAW workers are not lazy or overpaid, that they're excellent and productive workers, and that their wages and benefits are nothing but what they deserve. I wouldn't argue against that, in part because a lot of that is not in the realm of the provable. The fact remains, however, that UAW workers have much more than other workers with comparable education, skills, experience, level of responsibility and seniority. Right now UAW workers feel hard-done-by because they've had to give some of that up in recent years...but in that time, other workers have lost far more. The result is that UAW workers are still ahead of the very people that are now being asked to bail them out. Don't you understand why people are wondering why they should pay to preserve a wage level and benefits for others that they do not themselves enjoy? When people who work full-time are having to choose between heat for their homes and their children's medicine, do you really not understand why they have a hard time accepting that UAW workers "deserve" a bailout?
Do you have any experience working in a plant environment? Stamping plant? Assembly plant? In a manufacturing environment these people are often laid off or work on an as needed basis - can you state that these two conditions are made by those you claim do the same job but make less? Please be more descriptive of their jobs, so we can truly do an apples to apples comparison. If I found out that someone did a job like yours, and made less. Do I have the right to demand you to lower your income? Can I do that? Can you tell me how much you make so I can start doing my research. And what if UAW workers have NICE everything... Where does it state in our Constitution that they must get down so we are all at the same level of pay, benefits, and standards of living? What is it your suggesting here? What about lotto winners? Are they deserving of what they get? S***, did they work for it? What about nurses? Should they be making as much as Doctors? Hell, my wife's a nurse, and she's over worked, and underpaid. Just ask any nurse. |
2 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 7970832)
How do they build new streets in your area... if it is like most of America, developers pay for streets... why is some of that transit money not also available for cycling specific infrastructure?
The bottom line is that here in the US, we have long subsidized roadways specifically designed for the auto while all but excluding cycle specific or cycle friendly designs. The 1956 Highway act for instance was supposedly for defense, yet that nearly exclusive system is now dedicated to the motoring public. Where is the "bicycle act?" |
Originally Posted by DoB
(Post 7972134)
I don't know. But I do suspect that people who are not close to the epicenter of this may not be grasping the current situation very well. I work for a multinational company that makes cars, industrial equipment and even aircraft. We are in a crisis that has not been seen before in our lifetimes. Car sales, both in the US and in Europe plunged starting in October. Heavy equipment sales are essentially stalled. Job loss rates are occuring at a rate faster than was seen in either the recession of 82 or 74, rates not seen since the Great Depression.
If 2 of the 3 car companies fail in the US you will see unemployment rates in states like Michigan and Ohio ranging from 20% to 30%. Those are the kind of numbers that lead to civil unrest and political extremism if left unchecked. The reaction? 'My 83 Ford Tempo was unreliable so screw 'em'. Sounds reasonable. It is clear to me watching the political climate that people are not grasping what is coming. If you are not in the industries being strangled by the dearth of credit available right now then you have not noticed that sales of equipment and trucks are off by upwards of 70% in October and November year to year. Yu have not noticed that the flat screen TV market is completely glutted and glass screen making companies are idled. You have not noticed that US and Europe car sales are down 45% year to year in the last month. This is not a 'small decline' in GDP. This is off a cliff. I guess this is too bad for the layperson who is not watching internal data. Business as usual is over. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Depression |
Originally Posted by DoB
(Post 7972134)
I don't know. But I do suspect that people who are not close to the epicenter of this may not be grasping the current situation very well. I work for a multinational company that makes cars, industrial equipment and even aircraft. We are in a crisis that has not been seen before in our lifetimes. Car sales, both in the US and in Europe plunged starting in October. Heavy equipment sales are essentially stalled. Job loss rates are occuring at a rate faster than was seen in either the recession of 82 or 74, rates not seen since the Great Depression.
If 2 of the 3 car companies fail in the US you will see unemployment rates in states like Michigan and Ohio ranging from 20% to 30%. Those are the kind of numbers that lead to civil unrest and political extremism if left unchecked. The reaction? 'My 83 Ford Tempo was unreliable so screw 'em'. Sounds reasonable. It is clear to me watching the political climate that people are not grasping what is coming. If you are not in the industries being strangled by the dearth of credit available right now then you have not noticed that sales of equipment and trucks are off by upwards of 70% in October and November year to year. Yu have not noticed that the flat screen TV market is completely glutted and glass screen making companies are idled. You have not noticed that US and Europe car sales are down 45% year to year in the last month. This is not a 'small decline' in GDP. This is off a cliff. I guess this is too bad for the layperson who is not watching internal data. Business as usual is over. |
Originally Posted by DoB
(Post 7972134)
I don't know. But I do suspect that people who are not close to the epicenter of this may not be grasping the current situation very well...
The reaction? 'My 83 Ford Tempo was unreliable so screw 'em'. Sounds reasonable. It is clear to me watching the political climate that people are not grasping what is coming. If you are not in the industries being strangled by the dearth of credit available right now then you have not noticed that sales of equipment and trucks are off by upwards of 70% in October and November year to year. Yu have not noticed that the flat screen TV market is completely glutted and glass screen making companies are idled. You have not noticed that US and Europe car sales are down 45% year to year in the last month. This is not a 'small decline' in GDP. This is off a cliff. I guess this is too bad for the layperson who is not watching internal data. Business as usual is over. I don't know what the answer is. Bailout? Chapter 11? I don't know. I do know that this is unsustainable. |
Originally Posted by uke
(Post 7972663)
To paraphrase the POTUS, "bring it on". If this is what it takes to change things in this country, then bring it on. We've had innumerable chances to do things differently, and have always chosen the most utterly selfish ways out as a nation. If that's no longer an option, then too ****ing bad for all of us. God forbid the government is forced to spend $1 trillion next year on something other than war toys.
I guess I do not see a call to action in your post. |
Originally Posted by DoB
(Post 7972730)
What appeals to you? The Smoot-Hawley tariff act?
I guess I do not see a call to action in your post. 2. Government takeovers, if necessary, of the big three deemed "too big to fail". 3. Spreading the word that corporations incapable of managing their accounts will be summarily assimilated from this point on. |
What I think will happen, on the other hand, is familiar enough:
1. More fingerwagging. 2. More bailouts. 3. More bad practices. 4. Staving off the inevitable collapse for a little longer. |
Originally Posted by Silverexpress
(Post 7972145)
Can you back up your claims with factual information from other reputable sources?
Originally Posted by Silverexpress
(Post 7972145)
Do you have any experience working in a plant environment? Stamping plant? Assembly plant?
Originally Posted by Silverexpress
(Post 7972145)
In a manufacturing environment these people are often laid off or work on an as needed basis
Don't try to change the subject and turn this into a debate about manufacturing workers vs. everybody else, because it isn't. The manufacturers of America aren't in Washington asking for bailout money; the Big 3 are, so that's what we're talking about. Stick to the subject at hand.
Originally Posted by Silverexpress
(Post 7972145)
And what if UAW workers have NICE everything... Where does it state in our Constitution that they must get down so we are all at the same level of pay, benefits, and standards of living? What is it your suggesting here?
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Almost everyone is to blame for this.
We all made this economy what it is by going to fast food restaurants several times a week (instead of once per month), shopping at Wal-Mart instead of local stores, buying huge vehicles, and obnoxiously large homes that have more lightbulbs in the master bedroom than a fifties home had in the whole house. We wanted cellphones, Ipods, computers, portable computers, microwave ovens, icemakers, huge TVs, car video systems, several vacations per year, and so much more. People often say, "the middle class had it better in the fifties and sixties." Yeah, but they had one car, a one-car garage, and a 1300 square foot home. Kids rode bikes and threw a football instead of video games, and both the football and bike cost about the same then as now, because Americans made them, sold them, bought them. Imports were rare. If from Europe, they were expensive. If from Asia, they were crap (and often still are). We did this to ourselves. When I was a kid, the only place you could use a credit card was at a department store, and gas stations had their own credit cards. But nobody swiped a credit card at a fast food restaurant or the grocery store. You wrote a check at the grocery store or paid cash. The Great Depression had the same causes, and so will this great depression. That's what this is. It won't turn around anytime soon. As for the American car companies? They got screwed in many ways: 1. They decided in the mid-seventies to produce crappy cars, and continued that tradition well into the early 90s. They had the best cars in the world for decades, including up into the early seventies, but then they threw quality out the window and produced junk. Few people could trust them after that. 2. They got suckered by big oil and pushed SUVs, and now big oil is leaving them high and dry. Big oil should bail them out. 3. It's too late. Honda and Toyota make a far superior product and everyone who is honest knows this. I hear people say that American cars are just as good, but it simply isn't true. A Toyota or Honda with 100k miles is just getting started. A Ford truck or SUV needs to be rebuilt soon at that millage. The middle class was always small until after WWII. It had a good run, but maybe its time is over. Throughout most of our nation's history there was a small wealthy class, a small middle class, and a huge lower class. Why not again? |
I agree with your third point, but your second infantilizes the auto industry. They weren't suckered by big oil; they formed a willing alliance, and have reaped the profits for decades.
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It's not going to mean more bikes it's going to mean new companies. My personal opinion is that we should let them fail. They bet on big luxury trucks and they failed to diversify. Now they can't sell cars and they can't handle their union: It's time to die.
I do believe bankruptcy will kill these companies. They're not like airlines: They sell you a service you'll use for 5-10 years. I definitely would count a GM warranty as less than worthless today and their warranty is a major selling point on their cars. This sucks for auto workers. So, if we want to help them let's send them each a couple grand to move and find a job... Or, here's a crazy thought, just let the market sort itself out ;). |
^ Apparently, we like believing in the myth of a "free market" when it suits us, but resort to corporate welfare whenever reality sets in. :lol:
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Originally Posted by Fairmont
(Post 7973090)
When I was a kid, the only place you could use a credit card was at a department store, and gas stations had their own credit cards. But nobody swiped a credit card at a fast food restaurant or the grocery store. You wrote a check at the grocery store or paid cash. |
Originally Posted by Fairmont
(Post 7973090)
3. It's too late. Honda and Toyota make a far superior product and everyone who is honest knows this. I hear people say that American cars are just as good, but it simply isn't true. A Toyota or Honda with 100k miles is just getting started. A Ford truck or SUV needs to be rebuilt soon at that millage.
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Originally Posted by uke
(Post 7973191)
^ Apparently, we like believing in the myth of a "free market" when it suits us, but resort to corporate welfare whenever reality sets in. :lol:
What about this isn't a market? |
Originally Posted by crhilton
(Post 7973203)
I fail to understand your point. The market spoke: GM, Ford and Chrysler suck. It's saying: "We don't like them, give us a new one." The corporate welfare would just deny what everyone is asking for with their dollars. I see no reason to interject in this instance.
What about this isn't a market? We just saw it with the banks, and we're about to see it again with the auto industries. We'll see it three months from now with the next "too big to fail" corporation. |
Originally Posted by uke
(Post 7973217)
The corporate welfare is the very suggestion of bailing out failed corporations. We keep pretending to support a "free market", but whenever the "we're too big to fail" trump card is pulled, everyone falls back into line and goes along with it.
We just saw it with the banks, and we're about to see it again with the auto industries. We'll see it three months from now with the next "too big to fail" corporation. |
Originally Posted by crhilton
(Post 7973233)
But I wasn't saying that they're too big to fail or that we should bail them out. Surely you were referring to our society as a whole and not to my post? I assumed that the carrot indicated that you were responding to me.
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Originally Posted by uke
(Post 7973217)
We just saw it with the banks, and we're about to see it again with the auto industries. We'll see it three months from now with the next "too big to fail" corporation.
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