Would you complain if.....
01-12-09, 05:54 PM
#1
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Would you complain if.....
Would you complain if your favorite, no stress, sometimes on the sidewalk, route to work was completely obstructed in a few spots by businesses piling snow 5 feet high on the sidewalk? It is Murphy's law in action that it is only on the busiest roads where I wouldn't ride the slippery streets in the dark of winter, that the businesses have obstructed the sidewalk.
I figure that the business contracts out the snow removal, and asking them to stop obstructing the sidewalk might get them to ask the service to pile the snow elsewhere. I also figure that if I pressed the matter, somewhere it would be written law that active obstruction of a sidewalk would somehow be prohibited. It might also be written law somewhere prohibiting cycling on the sidewalk, so I am uncertain about the wisdom of citing laws. I know that what few pedestrians there are are forced into the street because of this practice.
But I only do winter commutes once or twice a week at best, and figure I can deal with these trouble spots by going into the street myself, against traffic (riding or walking) for 20 to 75 feet at a time on the way home. I could scale the snow mountains with my bike over my shoulder for some impressive photo opportunities. I won't be riding the road in these sections, however, if you were going to suggest that.
I guess I am just miffed that the snow plow driver could pile the snow elsewhere with only a few minutes more time and the effort it takes to bend his foot, but chooses not to.
I figure that the business contracts out the snow removal, and asking them to stop obstructing the sidewalk might get them to ask the service to pile the snow elsewhere. I also figure that if I pressed the matter, somewhere it would be written law that active obstruction of a sidewalk would somehow be prohibited. It might also be written law somewhere prohibiting cycling on the sidewalk, so I am uncertain about the wisdom of citing laws. I know that what few pedestrians there are are forced into the street because of this practice.
But I only do winter commutes once or twice a week at best, and figure I can deal with these trouble spots by going into the street myself, against traffic (riding or walking) for 20 to 75 feet at a time on the way home. I could scale the snow mountains with my bike over my shoulder for some impressive photo opportunities. I won't be riding the road in these sections, however, if you were going to suggest that.
I guess I am just miffed that the snow plow driver could pile the snow elsewhere with only a few minutes more time and the effort it takes to bend his foot, but chooses not to.
01-12-09, 06:03 PM
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Yes, I would say something. Sometimes, people just don't think that pedestrians and cyclists exist. I know in DC and MD there are laws against obstructing sidewalks or failing to clean sidewalks that go in front of your home or business. That being said, you always get some businesses that fail to obey these laws. We don't get much snow around here anymore, but we had a few big snow and ice storms about 10 years ago that brought this to the attention of the local governments after a few people were struck and seriously injured because they had to venture off sidewalks and into the road to get around snow piles. Since then, people have been far more attentive to this matter, even if the mere threat of snow can still send this area into a panic.
01-12-09, 06:31 PM
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In many cities the cops will fine residents for not keeping their sidewalks clean; I'd think businesses should do the same.
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01-12-09, 06:51 PM
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Also, keep in mind that the people most adversely affected by this are those with disabilities. Someone in a wheelchair can't just hop off the sidewalk and go around a huge snow pile. So, if you can, definitely lodge a complaint somewhere.
01-12-09, 06:55 PM
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No, businesses shouldn't be allowed to dump snow on the sidewalks.
...and no, I don't agree that you should be on the sidewalk, or riding against traffic in the road.
...and no, I don't agree that you should be on the sidewalk, or riding against traffic in the road.
01-12-09, 08:04 PM
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You should definately say something. They probably just don't realize the issues (potential issues) they are causing.
01-12-09, 08:11 PM
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If you make a phone call to the powers that be and mentioned you are a cyclist they would probably tell you that its against the law (whether its enforced or not) for bicycles on the sidewalk. But if you were a pedestrian.....I think you would have a legitimate gripe as it is unsafe for a pedestrian to walk in the road. Just my .02 (.001 after taxes)
01-12-09, 08:25 PM
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And for those who brought up the hancicapped, it would be a brave soul indeed who ventured onto these deserted suburban sidewalks with a handicap in the winter.
01-12-09, 08:30 PM
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If you make a phone call to the powers that be and mentioned you are a cyclist they would probably tell you that its against the law (whether its enforced or not) for bicycles on the sidewalk. But if you were a pedestrian.....I think you would have a legitimate gripe as it is unsafe for a pedestrian to walk in the road. Just my .02 (.001 after taxes)
I am not too sure about laws prohibiting sidewalk use, and would first have to determing if the areas are incorporated or not to look them up. It is a border area between three towns and might not be incorporated into any. But I think I will drop by the business with the largest pile tomorrow and see what they think. Can't hurt, and maybe they can change my oil while I wait.
01-12-09, 08:37 PM
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For the record everyone. The drivers handbook I am pretty sure says definitively that as any road users we or anyone else is only required to respect or obey traffic laws "wherever practicable".
So if the road is unsafe due to road conditions or motorist behaviour you should be able to defend it in court with enough witnesses. esp. considering we are only on the road cause they can't put us elsewhere.
thats what I know and what I heard. check it out.
regardless someone should suggest the city start ticketing for non shoveled sidewalk. I got threatened too many times in snowmaggeddon. once by a bunch of teens in a car, all boys, i am a girl and with a gun no less. If the roads were cleared that wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have been on the sidewalk. Cest la Vie.
I already hate my home town for cycling. Shoveling snow might help?
hope that empowers some smart cyclists and don't just give license to act like idiots to others.
So if the road is unsafe due to road conditions or motorist behaviour you should be able to defend it in court with enough witnesses. esp. considering we are only on the road cause they can't put us elsewhere.
thats what I know and what I heard. check it out.
regardless someone should suggest the city start ticketing for non shoveled sidewalk. I got threatened too many times in snowmaggeddon. once by a bunch of teens in a car, all boys, i am a girl and with a gun no less. If the roads were cleared that wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have been on the sidewalk. Cest la Vie.
I already hate my home town for cycling. Shoveling snow might help?
hope that empowers some smart cyclists and don't just give license to act like idiots to others.
01-12-09, 08:38 PM
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sorry i am a girl but I don't have a gun and the kids said they did.
01-12-09, 09:05 PM
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Ah, boredom has driven me to it. From the Illinois Vehicle Code:
So, not illegal to choose the non motorized pathway paralleling the road on my commute.
from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 11‑1512)
Sec. 11‑1512. Bicycles on sidewalks. (a) A person propelling a bicycle upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, shall yield the right of way to any pedestrian and shall give audible signal before overtaking and passing such pedestrian.
(b) A person shall not ride a bicycle upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, where such use of bicycles is prohibited by official traffic‑control devices.
(c) A person propelling a bicycle upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, shall have all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances.
(Source: P.A. 82‑132.)
Sec. 11‑1512. Bicycles on sidewalks. (a) A person propelling a bicycle upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, shall yield the right of way to any pedestrian and shall give audible signal before overtaking and passing such pedestrian.
(b) A person shall not ride a bicycle upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, where such use of bicycles is prohibited by official traffic‑control devices.
(c) A person propelling a bicycle upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, shall have all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances.
(Source: P.A. 82‑132.)
Last edited by Hot Potato; 01-12-09 at 09:09 PM.
01-12-09, 09:16 PM
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Contact your Governor. I'm sure he can get the problem fixed. 
For a slight fee.
For a slight fee.
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01-12-09, 09:27 PM
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SNOW AND ICE REMOVAL
To the undoubted relief of property owners in Illinois--whether public or private--the law does not generally impose on them an obligation to shovel away naturally occurring snow or ice from their property during the winter.
Because property owners have no duty to remove snow or ice, the courts have developed a legal rule known as the "natural accumulation" doctrine, which holds that property owners cannot be held liable for injuries caused by their failure to remove natural accumulations of snow and ice from their property. In other words, after a snow storm, a property owner may choose to remain inside (where it is warm) and is not considered negligent if a person slips and falls because the property owner failed to shovel or salt the walkway or sidewalk. The natural accumulation doctrine essentially recognizes that property owners cannot guarantee perfect conditions on their property, particularly during the winter.
On the other hand, property owners can be held liable for injuries that are caused by unnatural accumulations of snow and ice on their property. Examples of unnatural accumulations include snow piles created by snow removal efforts or ice that has formed because of an artificial condition, such as a fountain. This distinction is an important one because snow removal is an important job for many local governments throughout Illinois, and a common side-effect of snow removal is the creation of piles of snow and ice that might cause accidents.
In one case, a county in Illinois was held liable for an accident that occurred when a driver's view at an intersection was blocked by a snow pile that was created when the county cleared the snow out of the intersection itself. The driver was able to show that the pile of snow (which was taller than his car) was an unnatural accumulation that would not have been there except for the county's snow removal efforts. Because the evidence showed that the snow pile was created when county workers plowed the roads, it was not difficult for the driver to prove that they knew the snow pile existed, knew of its height, and knew that it was located in a place that blocked some drivers' views of the intersection.
Illinois law recognizes the common-sense approach to snow and ice removal. The lesson is that if you elect to remove snow or ice from your property, do it in a way that does not create a condition that is more dangerous than if the snow were left in place.
To the undoubted relief of property owners in Illinois--whether public or private--the law does not generally impose on them an obligation to shovel away naturally occurring snow or ice from their property during the winter.
Because property owners have no duty to remove snow or ice, the courts have developed a legal rule known as the "natural accumulation" doctrine, which holds that property owners cannot be held liable for injuries caused by their failure to remove natural accumulations of snow and ice from their property. In other words, after a snow storm, a property owner may choose to remain inside (where it is warm) and is not considered negligent if a person slips and falls because the property owner failed to shovel or salt the walkway or sidewalk. The natural accumulation doctrine essentially recognizes that property owners cannot guarantee perfect conditions on their property, particularly during the winter.
On the other hand, property owners can be held liable for injuries that are caused by unnatural accumulations of snow and ice on their property. Examples of unnatural accumulations include snow piles created by snow removal efforts or ice that has formed because of an artificial condition, such as a fountain. This distinction is an important one because snow removal is an important job for many local governments throughout Illinois, and a common side-effect of snow removal is the creation of piles of snow and ice that might cause accidents.
In one case, a county in Illinois was held liable for an accident that occurred when a driver's view at an intersection was blocked by a snow pile that was created when the county cleared the snow out of the intersection itself. The driver was able to show that the pile of snow (which was taller than his car) was an unnatural accumulation that would not have been there except for the county's snow removal efforts. Because the evidence showed that the snow pile was created when county workers plowed the roads, it was not difficult for the driver to prove that they knew the snow pile existed, knew of its height, and knew that it was located in a place that blocked some drivers' views of the intersection.
Illinois law recognizes the common-sense approach to snow and ice removal. The lesson is that if you elect to remove snow or ice from your property, do it in a way that does not create a condition that is more dangerous than if the snow were left in place.
My spouse says I would just be a jerk for expecting an unobstructed sidewalk in the winter, and that I should just drive my SUV every day like a normal person.
01-12-09, 10:00 PM
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When I lived in Newfoundland it was against the law to dump snow on the roads, so it would end up being plowed where sidewalks once were. It drove me crazy, everyday walking on the busiest roads while a 4x4 sat parked in a plowed driveway. Here in N.B. it's not much better, sidewalks aren't much of a priororty. If your on Facebook, check out the funny group "I'm going to get hit by a car in St. John's because they don't plow the sidewalks ". I haven't seen it in a long time, hope it's still there.
01-12-09, 10:29 PM
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It seems that some people who live in cities sometimes have no idea what an empty sidewalk looks like.
01-13-09, 07:40 AM
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If the sidewalk is blocked, and you have to ride in the road, wouldn't it make more sense to simply move to the correct side of the road and ride with traffic? I have to say, as a driver I find riding against traffic to be the most disconcerting cyclist behavior that I encounter. When you ride against traffic, you're doing something that a driver really does not expect, and when you do that, you increase the chances that the driver won't react properly. I'm not going to get into the sidewalk jihad, but if you ride in the road, please ride with traffic -- for your own sake if for nobody else's.
01-13-09, 07:43 AM
#19
L T X B O M P F A N S R
01-13-09, 07:50 AM
#20
L T X B O M P F A N S R
I'm super anal about snow removal myself. I've always cleared the entire sidewalk of place I've lived, and I've always kept handicapped people in mind. My rule of thumb is to make sure that two pedestrians can always walk comfortable two abreast. Blockages in the sidewalk are a big no-no for me.
I've never actually complained, but rest assured I always look down my nose with scorn at people who practice less than adequate snow removal ("adequate" being my own high standards).
I say complain to the city (or whoever you need to complain to). See what happens.
I've never actually complained, but rest assured I always look down my nose with scorn at people who practice less than adequate snow removal ("adequate" being my own high standards).
I say complain to the city (or whoever you need to complain to). See what happens.
01-13-09, 07:58 AM
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If the sidewalk is blocked, and you have to ride in the road, wouldn't it make more sense to simply move to the correct side of the road and ride with traffic? I have to say, as a driver I find riding against traffic to be the most disconcerting cyclist behavior that I encounter. When you ride against traffic, you're doing something that a driver really does not expect, and when you do that, you increase the chances that the driver won't react properly. I'm not going to get into the sidewalk jihad, but if you ride in the road, please ride with traffic -- for your own sake if for nobody else's.
Against traffic only to get around the obstruction, which can be accomplished in 30 feet sometimes. The road is 4 to 5 lanes wide, sometimes with a median that is hard to get over with the snow piled on it, and there is no side path on the other side. So travelling with traffic on the way home requires a committment to be on the road for a few miles straight, whereas getting around an obstruction requires only a short distance.
But the discussion is purely academic now. A closer inspection of the route today reveals the sidewalk to be probably impassable over a much greater length than the few businesses that have piled up snow. City Snow plows and homeowners have made the rest rough going too. Ah well.
The good news is that aerial maps seem to show a way to re-route that I did not know about. It would seem that some neighborhoods have made bike paths, not shown on the maps, that will allow me to travel between sub-divisions that maps show as not connected. And these neighborhoods will be side streets with tame traffic. I have some exploring to do, and am excited at the prospect of continuing to commute the rest of the winter. I wouldn't dream of complaining when I have a solution that requires only a few more miles of effort on my part. thank you mapquest!
01-13-09, 08:09 AM
#23
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Do a search on the web and see if there is a way to send a compliant about snow removal. Here in Omaha, I found a site and have done it once, where I think it did help in one place. Just did it with this topic in my head.
Of course anyone making a living doing snow removal will complain that it's hard to not make piles of snow, but how hard is it to be considerate and think a bit of where to put the snow.
As for my home, I try to make sure that I get snow removed within 24 hours of it being done. As the city has rules about this. I don't want to have someone's kid walking to school and slip and break an arm due to the snow not being removed.
Of course anyone making a living doing snow removal will complain that it's hard to not make piles of snow, but how hard is it to be considerate and think a bit of where to put the snow.
As for my home, I try to make sure that I get snow removed within 24 hours of it being done. As the city has rules about this. I don't want to have someone's kid walking to school and slip and break an arm due to the snow not being removed.
01-13-09, 08:19 AM
#24
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01-13-09, 08:20 AM
#25
L T X B O M P F A N S R
However, I'd be more lenient in really big snow events, like when you get two or three feet dumped on you in a big storm. There's only so many places you can put the snow. Likewise I'd be lenient in winters where there's heavier than usual snow, with no thaws in between storms.