Interesting topic. I used to ride through "bad" areas of Atlanta after getting out of work at 2 or 3AM. And then bike to my house in a "bad" area. My only weapon would have been sprinting, or my U-Lock. I rode in downtown Los Angeles after hours too. Worked at 9th and Gladys, a rather scary spot, and lived at 7th & Normandy. I've ridden through the Tenderloin and Mission district in SF many a late night/morning, etc. To me, it's all in people's heads (not a bad thing), i.e., their perception. Are you safer carrying a weapon like a pistol? I dunno. There are a lot of what-ifs involved here.

What if you pull your pistol in self-defense? Now the next time you ride through there you are "the guy on the bike with the pistol" ... a marked man, so to speak.
What if you ride through there 3 times a day for 10 years and never needed to carry it? Seems like a waste of energy to me. The resources that could have been used in the quest for personal protection could have been put towards a more selfless way.
What if .... What if .... What if ...
If you think you need one, and you really want one, and you can get one, and carry one legally, and it is one of your rights, then by all means make the choice. There's no one in here that can decide for you. Your world through your perception is just that.

As for me, a simple nod of the head or just keeping my eyes on the road always got me by. I was always another vehicle just passing through. I'll add my agreement that riding "around" an area is always an option. Those of you that think otherwise are, well, wrong. Good luck with your decision and your ride[s].

Good point. Just 'cause some smuck is great at target practice on the range doesn't mean he's prepared to win anything in a real life street situation.

I've been shot and beaten on South Park Avenue in Tucson.

Which places me in Arizona.

Which means he's got to be kidding when he states I have a "duty to retreat."

Um, no, they are not, as the poster stated. I grew up in a law enforcement family. I've shot with many police officers, and I can wholeheartedly agree with RugerBen. The vast majority of police officers only shoot when it's time for qualification. Most police officers are not firearms enthusiasts. My dad was a state trooper, and a firearms enthusiast---but he was into guns way before he became a cop. Studies have shown that armed citizens have a higher hit percentage in shootings than police officers do.

Now, you're incorrect in your assumption re:prosecution. If the poster lives in a state with a shall-issue CCW permit and shoots someone in defense of his life, he likely will not be charged---if it's a case of him just pedaling along and getting jumped. Your straw man argument about "being in the wrong place and looking for trouble" doesn't wash. Now, if he was in a bar and escalated a fight while carrying a firearm he would be in trouble.

Being in a shady neighborhood isn't "looking for trouble", either in the real world or in a legal sense. We don't all live in upper class suburbs. Some people live in rough places with rough people.

had the OP said that he lived in a rough neighborhood rather than rides through one, the argument of finding a different route wouldn't wash. what if you can't afford anything but "rough neighborhoods", do you have a right to protect yourself? the law and common sense says yes.

i carry and i have common sense. they're not mutually exclusive.

A gun writer Mas Ayoob gives the wise advice that if you wouldn't go into an area unarmed, you shouldn't go in armed.

Thanks for backing me up there. I was at work the rest of the day and couldn't get back to the comp to reply.

And wow, someone quoted Masad Ayoob on BF? That's a first. :thumb:

I am editing to add that I did not mean this to insult police officers. I have seen some spectacularly good shooters who were/are LEOs. But for MOST cops, the gun is just a tool that they have to put up with. not something with which they train regularly because their lives depend on it.

But he doesn't, so it does. What's your point? Are you seriously saying that carrying a weapon and going into a situation where you believe you will have to use it is smarter than riding a few blocks out of your way?

I'm reluctant to enter this debate, although I do have my point of view.

That said, I'd just like to note how glad I am that there aren't more bike-jackings, given that it's easier to see who's riding a bike worth something than to determine if someone is carrying anything of value on their person.

I'm trying to wrap my head around your statement, and am getting a headache. :twitchy:
If someone "shoots someone in defense of his life", (why not just call it killing someone) how do you then argue a "case of him just pedaling along and getting jumped."
You then say he "likely will not be charged." Likely??
Are you willing to be charged with manslaughter for killing someone just interested in your backpack?
Are you able to prove your life was in danger?
Is it worth the risk?

The testosterone increases exponentially on this subject as the thread lengthens. The recommendations for automatic rifles clipped to your frame usually starts around page 5. By then, it's shoot any bas**rd that gets in your way!

The best advice here has been post #2.

It seems like a redundancy of tubing...

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I like guns, have several, and beleive in my right to defend my home and family...but im going to work. If my glock 17 falls out of my pack and lands on the floor while Im chatting with somebody in the morning in the lobby, well that could be a problem. Probably going to get some peper spray though. Couple spots on the route are dark trails where a crackhead with two by four could un-horse me.

No, I'm not saying that at all, that's where "common sense" comes into play. What I'm suggesting is that avoiding the situation is the easy solution (and the correct one), but it doesn't make for very compelling discussion. The more interesting question is what happens if the difficult situation, the "rough neighborhood" can't be avoided?

That's not a good idea at all.

You live in Murderapolis. Why don't you Google the name "Mark Loesch" and get back to me? Wait, let me do it for you.
http://www.startribune.com/local/11557486.html

Police continued their investigation Saturday into the violent death of a man who had been riding his bicycle in south Minneapolis.

Mark Loesch, 41, of Minneapolis, died of multiple blunt-force head impacts, the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office said Saturday. His death was ruled a homicide.

Loesch went for a ride after the 10 p.m. news Wednesday but never returned.

He was found barely breathing on a lawn on the 3700 block of Elliot Avenue S. -- less than 1.5 miles from his home -- about 7 a.m. Thursday. He died before paramedics arrived. His bike was nearby; his wallet and cell phone had been left at home.

Loesch, married 16 years, was a father of four. He worked as an information-technology consultant and was an avid cyclist. He might have been going to show a new tire he put on his rebuilt bicycle to a friend.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just what makes you think all crime is non-violent? The cyclist in the above story---IN YOUR TOWN---was attacked and murdered for no good reason. They didn't steal his bike. They didn't take his wallet. They just killed him. Beat him to death. I'm sure you'll respond with the same BS line---"Oh, they probably attacked him from the side and knocked him off his bike." But what if they didn't? What if his assailants just cornered him and THEN beat him to death? Should he have been riding through a bad neighborhood in the middle of the night? Absolutely not. But sometimes people don't have good sense. Sometimes people are naive. But just because someone does something naive doesn't mean he should be beaten to death for it, or robbed of his possessions.

Why do you think all robbery crimes are just simple stickups? You think today's class of criminal is just going to walk up. say "Give me your bike/backpack!" and run away? No. The trend now is to beat the hell out of you even if you meekly comply. Seriously. I know you've heard of the Mark Loesch case but still you insist on clinging to your Pollyannaish ideas. Why? I'm not telling you to carry a weapon. I'm just don't understand how something horrible can happen in YOUR TOWN and you still refuse to believe it CAN happen?

Just for the record, I like guns and own several. I grew up shooting rifles and handguns, hunting, and competing on a junior small bore rifle team at a local gun club attaining a sharpshooter qualification. I continue to shoot, on an increasingly rare basis, in bowling pin competitions and as a casual target shooter. As familiar and comfortable as I am with firearms I would never consider carrying one (whether on my bicycle or otherwise) for self-defense; too much of a liability practically, ethically, and legally. My guns are unloaded, trigger locked, and reside in a friend's floor safe-they're not for self-defense. In addition, I live in an urban area and have commuted into DC nearly every day for the last 6 years. I have never once felt threatened enough to consider carrying a pistol. Carrying a gun and choosing to use it is a hell of a responsibility, you'd better be sure you're making the right decision-every time. In fact, you're much more likely to: have it used againts you, stolen, lost, used in a suicide or accidental shooting, or used againts a family member or friend, or, simply, in a legally un-justifiable shooting. It is indeed the anomoly rather than the rule when a firearm is legally, justifiably and, effectively used in the deterrence of an actual crime. Then, imagine trying to reconcile your "right" to own a firearm and/or use it with having just shot and killed a child or someone you mistakenly thought was trying to steel your precious bike-too much of a risk for me, I wouldn't want that on my conscience. In fact, if it came down to it, I'd rather simply take a safer route, opt for another means of transportation or, give up my bike and file a claim to get it replaced in a worst case scenario. The cowboy, gunslinger fantasy where you ride in all guns blazing (and ride out unscathed) is just that-the statistics bear that out. Do yourself a favor and leave your guns at home.

http://velocide.com/user_uploads/IsraelionBike.jpg


Just had to do it... =)

Just a couple of comments:
The story says he was less than 1.5 miles from his home, so to my thinking he was riding in his general neighborhood area, his home area, not some area that he had no business being in at that time of night unless his friend lived in the neighborhood he was riding to. I see nothing in the story to indicate the cyclist didn't have good sense, and nothing to indicate he was naive. The story was posted in September 2007 and says he went for a bike ride after the 10:00pm news, so that would make it about 10:30pm on a Wednesday night. If it was a warm day that day then maybe he just went for a short ride before going to sleep for the night, nothing wrong with that, nothing naive. Traffic is light at night, roads are relatively clear, nice peacefull time for a bike ride around town. I see nothing to indicate the cyclist was lacking in good sense or was naive.

Do you know if the police ever caught his attacker(s)?

He's not wearing a helmet, his groceries should be held in panniers or a rack bag, if he falls off his bike he might get hurt if he lands on the rifle, he is riding with only one hand on the handlebars, and if someone attacked him he wouldn't be able to employ his rifle in a timely manner due to his backpack being in the way. I'm sure others can find more details to consider as well.

Sorry, I just had to say it. :D

Agreed, I should think that I could easily tackle him and separate him from his gun. Who's in trouble then???

Well, it certainly doesn't make for a very inflammatory one :D

Well, then we'll get the circus ponies and trample the bad guys to death. What's that you say? Where did I get the circus ponies? The same place you got a "rough neighborhood" that can't be avoided.

Now, whoa up, I know what you're about to say -- what if someone lives there? That's a legitimate point. I brought up the circus ponies because I hate the way these discussions always devolve into a gear-and-testosterone debate about what's the bestest lethalist weapon for a "street situation" (which somehow never gets defined). The other questions -- really the more important ones -- never get the airtime they deserve: like, for instance, "What makes you perceive something as a 'rough neighborhood' (and is that a realistic assessment)?" or, "What are the ways to avoid the situation altogether rather than preparing to make a physical response to an attack?" or, "What are the ways that you can train to become proficient in the use of <weapon> so that it would be effective in such a situation?" It's a lot more fun, apparently, to go on about how you'd "do whatever was necessary to protect MY FAMILY <no hot buttons there, oh no> from any scum who attacks them" -- never mind that most likely you have no skills or training to do so.

Feh.

How do I define my work place location as a rough neighborhood:
1. Several armed robberies every year, several murders, several drug busts, rapes, attacks, vehicle thefts, vehicle content thefts, regular break-ins of local residences. Several armed robberies have been with a shotgun during daylight hours on a city sidewalk next to a busy street, not just a small handgun in a pocket but a full sized shotgun (I assume the criminal was at least wearing a trench coat to conceal the weapon used). One local bank was robbed twice in one week by the same robbers, I guess the robbers figured the bank would figure they wouldn't get robbed twice in one week and might have more cash on the second "visit". I know one person who's wife is a home health care worker, one of her patients lives near here, he is told to call the patient on the cell phone when he arrives and to stay in the car, the patient then sends out a relative to escort the wife/nurse into the residence while he is told to stay in his vehicle with the engine running and the windows closed and the doors locked and that the only way it is safe for his wife to come inside is with an escort from someone who is known in the neighborhood. There are weekly reports of various criminal activity around here. This is how I define this as a "rough neighborhood", and this one is much nicer than some others ones in the general area.

How to avoid a situation?
1. Awareness, staying alert, knowing what to watch for, being ready to adjust and react to or escape and evade a situation before the situation becomes a situation and in a manner that doesn't make it obvious that you are performaing an escape and evade maneuver except to others who are alert and aware of such things. Kind of like flirting at a high school dance when you were in high school, there are a whole lot of signals happening that the clueless are clueless to and the only way to know them is to tune in and be alert and aware. Is the guy half way down the block who just stood up on his front porch just when you came around the corner, is that guy reaching into his back pocket to grab a gun or to scratch his rear or to grab a hankie to blow his nose? Do you really want to stick around to know? Can you evade without turning your evasion into an insult if the guy is just scratching his behind? And if he was going for a gun can you evade his buddy on the next street over who has eyeshot to his buddy and just got a signal to intercept you? You don't have to ride around in a borderline panic, but you do have to be aware. Same as with cars in traffic, not all of them are about to turn in front of you, but you have to be ready in case one does and you have to be alert to the signals that one is about to.

Training for proficiency:
1. Study, read, practice, take classes, continually try to improve your skillset, and know that no matter how good you are that there is always more to learn and something that you can improve upon.

I'm no expert and don't pretend to be one, I've just managed to somehow survive this long and hope to continue surviving for many years to come.

Plus, with the ammunition for the AR15 being expensive and non existant right now, it's probably not loaded.

saying: "I would rather be judged by twelve then carried by six"
At what point do you realize he/she just wanted your bike and not your life.
Wake up people! There are bad people in this world. Be careful.

You should probably read some of the follow up reports like this one:

http://www.startribune.com/local/min.../11545356.html

The suspect said they stole $40 out of his pocket. The police suggested that he may have been trying to buy drugs though the family doubts it. They accuse the police of trying to downplay the danger to the general public by claiming that Loesch was engaging in risky behavior. Loesch did have a drug conviction in 2003. He cleaned up his act after that.

Even though the place where he was robbed is only 1.5 miles from his house, it's not at all in the same neighborhood. A few blocks can make a huge difference. My house is also probably less than 2 miles away and I do not like riding in that area at night though I have done so at a marginally better area a couple of blocks West. I don't linger at intersections.

It sounds like he was surprised by the attack and I highly doubt carrying a gun would have helped him.

The other thing to note is that this was headline news exactly because it's uncommon for cyclist to be involved in such a brutal incident.

To the OP, I sent you an IM. Unfortunately his forum is comprised of many anti-gun liberal sheep. I find a lot cyclists are. However, it's the ones that post snide remarks that get threads like this locked instead of keeping it open for intelligent people with experience to the original question to comment on. As someone whose is fairly new to cycling, I find that the members of this forum have a wealth of information. Please don't let the few bad apples stop you from visiting this site.

You mean like the one calling forum members liberal sheep just because they question the benefits of gun carrying while riding? :rolleyes:

"Should I carry a weapon when riding in a bad area?"
"Just don't ride there"
"Don't tell me what to do"
"Look at this non-related anecdotal evidence"
"Look at this picture of a machine gun"
"Crazy gun nut"
"Wussy liberal"

And there it is........It's funny how a debate such as this typically devolves into name calling and insults. Although I'm often labelled an "anti-gun, liberal sheep", the irony is that I'm not necassarily anti gun-I know that there are many, legitimate sporting uses for certan guns. I personall enjoy shooting, when I have the chance. I am, however, also anti-gun violance/death/proliferation, etc. I don't think that's an unreasonable stance or worthy of insult. In my experience, the gun advocates simply want their guns and imagine myriad scenarios where they are able to use them (usually involving the shooting of "perps" and defending damsels in distress) thereby justifying the carrying of said weapon (s). The statistics do not bear out those scenarios-not even close. A handgun in one's home or on one's person is many, many times more likely to be a liability to the owner, rather than a safety measure. They then turn to personal attacks when confronted with logic, reason, statistical evidence, etc. It seems that it's somehow threatening to their manhood when the main thrust of their fantasy is undermined through this debate. Another thing I've learned, is that they are so attached to the notion of guns as empowering, life-saving, testosterone pills that they will never concede any part of their perspective so, I reserve my advice for those who are on the fence about gun ownership/carrying. I hope the original poster makes the smart choice, it's obvious to the more informed among us: take a safer route, ride at safe times, leave the gun at home. I mean, carrying a gun while your riding your bike....think about how silly that sounds.

How rediculous. A little question like that would start all of this...