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Hypocrisy

Old 02-08-02, 03:50 PM
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Hypocrisy

Everyone here knows how it is. You show up for work feeling your best, maybe sweaty, on your bike. Your mind is full of happiness as you once again feel grateful that you have discovered the joys of bicycle commuting.

As you meet familiar faces, it's only a matter of time before someone says, "Ride the bike today? That's too dangerous..."

Dangerous? :confused:

I'm not stupid, I know how it hurts to crash on a bike. But, "too dangerous?"

You see, I know more than some people think I do. I know that those same folks have bought bicycles for their children. So tell me, O "safe" ones, if bikes are too dangerous, why do you let your kids ride them?
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Old 02-08-02, 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by Pete Clark
You see, I know more than some people think I do. I know that those same folks have bought bicycles for their children. So tell me, O "safe" ones, if bikes are too dangerous, why do you let your kids ride them?
Good point. I will also pose a question as to what is more dangerous, cycling or being unable to walk 100 metres without having a coronary?

:confused:
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Old 02-08-02, 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by Pete Clark
As you meet familiar faces, it's only a matter of time before someone says, "Ride the bike today? That's too dangerous..."
You know, I never ever get this comment, and this is despite the fact that on a few occasions I have shown up for work late and bleeding.
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Old 02-08-02, 08:03 PM
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I live in the same town as my parents. On a daily basis my mother tells me she wishes I wouldn't ride my bike all the time, but especially to work. It drives me crazy! She said to me not long ago, "If I thought you were going to like bicycling so much, I would never have bought you one."

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???:confused: :confused:
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Old 02-08-02, 08:29 PM
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Old 02-10-02, 07:23 PM
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Yeah I get that too once in awhile. I can see why some people would think that, since riding a bike along a major roadway with multi-ton vehicles traveling at 30-50 MPH while dodging potholes and debris and objects thrown from cars is not exactly what I call a low risk situation. But to me it is a calculated risk that I am willing to take.

What I think people are telling you is that they think riding to work is dangerous, not riding a bike per se. I would not let my kid ride to school any more than a few miles but I would certainly let him ride in our neighborhood or with me somewhere. I don't think that's hypocricy at all, it's more like making a choice that's right for your situation.
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Old 02-13-02, 06:43 AM
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The way I've seen many 'occasional' cyclists ride, I think it would be too dangerous for them to ride anywhere, let alone in traffic.

Mind you, many of them aren't all that safe behind the wheel of a car either. (Which is, I guess, what makes it sometimes a little risky for some of us bikers.)
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Old 02-13-02, 06:51 AM
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Most people think that jamming through heavy, slow traffic in the centre of town is dangerous. Percieved danger is usually quite different from actual danger. The point of most cycling "facilities" is to reduce the percieved dangers, so that those non-riders will think it is safer.

Can you imagine the outcry if professionals used this thinking in the world of aviation safety, ignore the pilots, and address the fears of people who are afraid to fly!
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Old 02-13-02, 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by MichaelW
Most people think that jamming through heavy, slow traffic in the centre of town is dangerous. Percieved danger is usually quite different from actual danger. The point of most cycling "facilities" is to reduce the percieved dangers, so that those non-riders will think it is safer.

Can you imagine the outcry if professionals used this thinking in the world of aviation safety, ignore the pilots, and address the fears of people who are afraid to fly!


Give me a moment to gather my thoughts...



That's better. Now...

(Thanks for the "spark," Michael!) "Perceived danger:" if motorists feel "safe" in a comfy seat with air-conditioning and beautiful music while they eat, drink and chat on the phone, as if they were sitting stationary in their living rooms, while in reality, hurtling down a freeway at speeds that would smash their internal organs instantly if that speed were suddenly "interrupted..."

Have I said too much? :confused:
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Old 02-13-02, 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by Pete Clark
(Thanks for the "spark," Michael!) "Perceived danger:" if motorists feel "safe" in a comfy seat with air-conditioning and beautiful music while they eat, drink and chat on the phone, as if they were sitting stationary in their living rooms, while in reality, hurtling down a freeway at speeds that would smash their internal organs instantly if that speed were suddenly "interrupted..."

Have I said too much?
No, not at all. I saw someone quoting statistics the other day that claimed walking up and down stairs had a higher death rate than cycling on the road. Does that mean we should built special paths to encourage people not to walk on stairs?

I ask merely for information.
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Old 02-13-02, 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by MediaCreations
The way I've seen many 'occasional' cyclists ride, I think it would be too dangerous for them to ride anywhere, let alone in traffic.

Mind you, many of them aren't all that safe behind the wheel of a car either. (Which is, I guess, what makes it sometimes a little risky for some of us bikers.)
I believe it takes far more skill to operate a bicycle than it does to drive a car. Think about it: you have to consider balance, irregular roads (dodging things), road users that don't make allowances for you (so you have to think for both yourself and them,) adequate food, dressing for the weather, cross-winds, head-winds, hills, timing traffic lights, opening doors, pedestrians (we're silent to them,) punctures, etc., not to mention encountering wrong-way cyclists!

A skilled cyclist is far safer than anything on the road.

Imagine how many fewer traffic deaths there would be if all cars were replaced by skilled cyclists (and stroke deaths, heart-attack deaths, cancer deaths, asthma deaths...)
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Old 02-13-02, 07:35 PM
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Imagine how many fewer traffic deaths there would be if all cars were replaced by skilled cyclists (and stroke deaths, heart-attack deaths, cancer deaths, asthma deaths...)

Replacing cars is not the problem (although I would like to see that too), the problem is that anyone and everyone can obtain a driver's license wether they can drive worth a damn or not. The driver's test is a joke, only 25 questions, and multiple choice. Ridiculous. And then they take you for a 15 minute car ride and if you don't kill anyone you get a license.

I would like to add to the "Wish it would happen but not in a million years" list by suggesting all motorists are required to spend several hours per year in a simulator, similar to the ones used for pilot training. I would also suggest that bicyclists are required to obtain some type of bike license. Nothing too serious, just to test your knowledge of hand signals and how to ride at night, what to do when approaching another cyclist, etc.

Imagine how many fewer deaths there would be if we had skilled motorists AND bicyclists on the road...
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Old 02-13-02, 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by Bigtime
Replacing cars is not the problem (although I would like to see that too...)
I do not believe this will happen in my lifetime, perhaps not ever.

The automobile is essential for many people. No one should live in guilt about a situation they did not create, that is, a car-dependent society.

But I ask you: have you ever had to cut your bike ride short because of high smog levels? Have you ever had your lungs develop irritation from bicycling or walking in high ozone levels? (Ozone is odorless and colorless.) I suffered bronchitis-like sicknesses just from directing traffic after 7:00 p.m. on a summer's eve.

Is this the world we want to live in? Who is going to do something to try to change it?

:confused:

I disagree. Replacing cars is the problem, or at least, making cars emission-free.
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Old 02-13-02, 08:40 PM
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Pete,

I agree with you, low emmision cars would be the best of both worlds, and yes I breathe the same polluted air everyone else does. When I see a car going down the road that looks like it's on fire it turns my stomach.

We are on the same page I think. But remember that the oil companies will never release their death grip on the American consumer anytime in the forseeable future. This is way off topic so I will just say that it's not your or my responsibility alone to rid the world of vehicle pollutions, it definitely calls for a group effort.
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Old 02-13-02, 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by Bigtime
... it definitely calls for a group effort.
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Old 02-13-02, 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by Pete Clark

I do not believe this will happen in my lifetime, perhaps not ever.

The automobile is essential for many people. No one should live in guilt about a situation they did not create, that is, a car-dependent society.

But I ask you: have you ever had to cut your bike ride short because of high smog levels?
Yes, and on this occasion it had nothing to do with cars, but with stupid f*cks who thought lighting fires was 'really kewl man'. Either way, I'm sick of people trying to blame someone else for the situation they have with auto-dependence. We all face choices about where we live and so on.

If anybody really wanted to be car-free they could. The fact is, most people don't particularly want to. Of course, a global oil crisis could fix that
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Old 02-14-02, 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by Chris L
If anybody really wanted to be car-free they could. The fact is, most people don't particularly want to. Of course, a global oil crisis could fix that
Chris L. sets the standard just a little higher...

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Old 02-14-02, 07:22 PM
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Lets be honest with ourselves, as much good as it would do the entire world and as much as we 'd like to see it go the way of the dinosaur, the car with all it's horrendous faults, is here to stay.

The worldwide economic impact caused by the loss of the excesses brought about by the automobile would be catastrophic.

Hmmmm, were'd that come from?
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Old 02-14-02, 07:56 PM
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Originally posted by threadend
The worldwide economic impact caused by the loss of the excesses brought about by the automobile would be catastrophic.
A couple of points here. Firstly, there were economic losses in the post "horse and cart" era, too. The fact is, people move on. The fact of the matter is, there will eventually be a post-oil economy, and a transition to be made. This is an inevitable consequence of an economy based on a finite resource.

The way I see it, there are two alternatives here. Either fuel in its current form can be priced to reflect the finite resource that it really is (and that doesn't happen at the moment), facilitating a gradual transition and perhaps buying our species more time to come up with something better (something I'm not convinced our species has the intelligence to do, and hence the current situation).

The other alternative is to simply suck up to the current leaders of the oil industry, subsidise the crap out of it (which is what currently happens) until there is an oil shortage crisis, and then have a massive panic when the time comes. I know which option I'd choose.
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Old 02-14-02, 08:18 PM
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It's simple to me:

Biking is self-suffieciency and intimacy with nature all in one.

Owe no one anything. Just bike, and lead others to biking.

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Old 02-14-02, 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by Chris L


...The way I see it, there are two alternatives here. Either fuel in its current form can be priced to reflect the finite resource that it really is (and that doesn't happen at the moment), facilitating a gradual transition and perhaps buying our species more time to come up with something better (something I'm not convinced our species has the intelligence to do, and hence the current situation).

The other alternative is to simply suck up to the current leaders of the oil industry, subsidise the crap out of it (which is what currently happens) until there is an oil shortage crisis, and then have a massive panic when the time comes. I know which option I'd choose.
Chris L,
Very good points, but there is a third alternative, you touched on it with your comment about the inteligence of our species.

Although, IMHO, they are a little optimistic on the timeline, Zager and Evans said it best:

In the year 2525
If man is still alive
If woman can survive they may find

...

In the year 5555
Your arms hanging limp at your sides
Your legs got nothing to do
Some machine's doing that for you

...

In the year 9595
I'm kinda wonderin' if man is gonna be alive
He's taken everything this old Earth can give
And he ain't put back nothin', whoa-oh

Now it's been ten thousand years
Man has cried a billion tears
For what he never knew
Now man's reign is through

...
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Old 02-14-02, 08:30 PM
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Chris,

What are you talking about? :confused: How are we subsidizing the oil companies? By paying for their product? I am not an expert by any stretch when it comes to oil subsidies, please explain to me how you came up with this. And all you are going to do if you raise gas prices sky high is create a black market for fuel the likes of which you have never seen. Which of course will not concern you if you don't have a vehicle, but since I do that is not an option I am looking forward to.

I don't suck up to any oil companies, they set the price and if I want to drive I pay the money. And I reject the thought that our "species" lacks the intelligence to come up with alternative fuel sources. Don't forget, our "species" invented the bicycle .

I sense from your post that you are vehemently against vehicles as a method of transport. I understand your view and you are entitled to it. But don't come down on me or anyone else just because they live far from work and they choose not to ride a bike 10 miles a day. Like the previous member stated, vehicles are here to stay, and if you want to live in the sticks and drive into work I say go for it. Just be responsible about it and don't drive a boat that gets 5 miles to the gallon.
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Old 02-14-02, 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by Bigtime
What are you talking about? :confused: How are we subsidizing the oil companies? By paying for their product? I am not an expert by any stretch when it comes to oil subsidies, please explain to me how you came up with this.
Governments subisides oil with taxpayer's money. It's as simple as that. The price we pay for our fuel is less than what the oil companies would otherwise charge.

Originally posted by Bigtime

And all you are going to do if you raise gas prices sky high is create a black market for fuel the likes of which you have never seen. Which of course will not concern you if you don't have a vehicle, but since I do that is not an option I am looking forward to.
How so? Eliminating subisidies would increase the cost, yes, but no more than what the oil companies would already charge. Black markets only arise from products that are made illegal or heavily taxed, and at no point did I suggest either of these options. Fuel is a finite resource, and if allowed to be priced naturally, the cost would be a hell of a lot more than it is now.

Originally posted by Bigtime

And I reject the thought that our "species" lacks the intelligence to come up with alternative fuel sources. Don't forget, our "species" invented the bicycle .
Until I see evidence of this happening, I will continue to hold my thought on this.

Originally posted by Bigtime

I sense from your post that you are vehemently against vehicles as a method of transport. I understand your view and you are entitled to it. But don't come down on me or anyone else just because they live far from work and they choose not to ride a bike 10 miles a day.
At no point did I criticise anyone for their decisions. I merely suggested that they should pay their own way and not be subsidised by government funds.
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Old 02-15-02, 02:01 AM
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I also ride a fairly powerful (100HP) motorbike. My mother (and I'm 41!) refuses to acknowledge it's existence most of the time, but when she does it's to tell me not to ride it! "It's too dangerous". However, she doesn't get worked up about me cycling to work.

Go figure. I wear about £1000 of armoured protective gear and a £300 helmet when filtering through traffic at 20 mph on my Honda, and a Giro Helmet and some chamois and lycra when filtering through traffic at 20 mph on my bicycle..

The moral is that it's just people's perception. The only thing that makes cycling dangerous is the motor car and the unobservant impatient aggresive people who drive them.


Last year 1800 miles on the VFR, 4000+ miles on the bicycle!!

I know what my priorities are.
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Old 02-15-02, 08:11 PM
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My family and I still depend on cars. There is no way to get them around otherwise.

My wife cannot even ride a bike due to severe arthritis, and cannot walk to the bus stop for the same reason.

But as John E. said, small cuts in oil consumption can make a big difference if more people make the "sacrifice." I don't consider it a sacrifice to ride my bike to work, I just love it! Especially since I remember how much it cost me to commute by car during the first 20 years of my worklife!

Metro Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority estimated that the average Atlantan who commutes by car (formerly, me) spews almost two tons of exhaust gasses into the city's air every year.

I breathe a little easier, now.
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