That makes logical sense to me.

I kinda feel I gotta stand up for the skaters here… a lot of us “go both ways” and operate by the same rules regardless of which wheels are beneath us at the moment. I’ve skated with hundreds of people (sometimes all at once!) that have enough sense to share the road, take the lane, or stay right, depending on the situation. I’ve also known skaters who ignore red lights, think “salmon” is both a tasty meal and a heartfelt compliment, and don’t have enough sense not to roll down the middle of the lane with headphones on. But I’ve seen many more (due simply to being a more common sport) cyclists to do those things as well.

Yes, we are wider than a bicycle when pushing at full power, but are able in an instant to become slightly more narrow than a cyclist when passing or being passed. So please, don’t paint us all with the same brush. That’s a large part of what upsets us about the cagers, no? Being retaliated against for the sins of the drunken ninja salmon?

As a former avid runner, and as an avid cyclist since the late 70's, I have been on both sides of this for ..... a while.
Runners (and other pedestrians) face traffic for safety reasons. Simple as that. They are not vehicles and are therefore not obliged to behave as vehicles.
Asphalt is MANY times more shock absorbant than concrete, and is therefore a better surface for running.

All that said, I feel that runners who fail to yield to bicycles (while running in the shoulder or bike lane) are ignorant and selfish. In all of my years as a runner, I always made an effort to give cyclists their space. Perhaps I did this because I was (am) also a cyclist.

Just my $.02

I think you probably did it, because it's natural sanity. :) Getting out of the way of (heavier :)) things that are moving faster, makes a lot of sense.

Exactly same for me except I ran in the evenings. It is so easy to see a cyclist coming and hop up on the sidewalk momentarily. I ran on the street not primarily because of the surface hardness differnes, but mainly so I could see potential hazards (vehicles leaving side streets, driveways, etc.) up ahead.

Years ago ruuning shoes were made with veryy little cushioning and what it did have broke down with use. Now shoes are made with lots of cushioning and you can't tell a difference bewteen concrete and asphalt surfaces. So that argument about the need to run on softer surfaces isn't true today.

Runners use the bike lane or street because the sidewalk goes up and down curbs. It's all too easy to twist an ankle or trip/stumble.

BTW, the paths I've been on in the Dallas area are signed "Cyclists yield to pedestrians", so there's a definite order of user preference and liability.

Best,
tcs

First off, I'll avoid quoting you later with your 'baiting reference,' and just say I'm not baiting, by any standard or definition you'll try to expand upon later. I'm making certain you use your brain and realize that you're doing literally the same thing drivers do to cyclists - your painting all runners, in a bike lane, with the same brush.

But perhaps a direct reference to the quote to support my statement from earlier (this is a text sigh, because the fact that you, personally, jumped on this statement of mine as against you merits me going back through an entire thread and showing you what you obviously read over because you either A. thought was funny or B. didn't feel affected you so your give-a-**** meter was turned off.

Sounds pretty threatening to me, even if it was intended to be 'funny.'

Think of it like a driver telling you at a stop light "I'm going to run your ass over" while grinning wicked and revving his engine. Is he joking, or not? Do you care at that moment?

The difference between a jogger and runner is that a runner (such as myself) has to use the bike lane to do actual mileage because even the MUPS where I live only run 6 miles. The bike lanes that see VERY limited use other than by me and a few others down here go for a considerable distance further. In many cases, sidewalks are not a safe place to run because drivers (I know this probably won't sound familiar to you at all) don't pay attention to pedestrian traffic either. If you think they ignore us on bikes, try running at 10 MPH up and down driveways.

Furthermore, running on concrete, even in $120 running shoes takes a higher toll on ankles (especially in extreme distances) just as much as it would in a 10 year old pair of shoes. The padding is only designed to work for a specific compression time and usually a runner replaces his shoes ever 500 miles because that's the breakdown time on the rubber compounds in the shoe itself.

Nobody has designed a running shoe designed for extreme mileage because the average consumer jogs.

So while I apologize for being aggressive about defending people who run on the bike lane, it has more to do with the fact that I defend my right to ride with the same venom if provoked.

I still love you though, in an internet I don't have a clue who you are but you ride so your a decent chap kinda way.

And runners/walkers/joggers/mom's with their kids in strollers go against traffic because they're taught to do it. I've never figured out if it's safer or not, frankly. I do it because it's too hard to run counter flow to other foot traffic and because when I run in a bike lane I want to see the guy who doesn't warn me that he's going to buzz me then give me the look back like "How dare you!" "Get in that dirt and weeds NOW!"

+1. Cyclist and runner as well. If the road has an unmarked shoulder, it should be considerately shared among pedestrians, runners, and cyclists. If it's a marked bike lane, runners should yeild to cyclists unless there's literally no other place for them to safely run.

There are a few roads I cycle on weekend mornings that have a bike lane or shoulder. These are heavily used by runners (and cyclists) at these times and I have never encountered a runner who was not facing traffic flow and did not move to the far right when cyclist approach.

the other thing is some people tend to think everything they ride on are "bike lanes" when in reality it's a MUP, and if that path is really a MUP, then all vehicle and joggers/walkers/dog walkers are entitled to share the road.

... and yes it's very annoying, i see them every morning :lol:

This used to piss me off to no end. But then I was afraid I was starting to think like a driver: "This is mine! You belong on the sidewalk!" On the other hand, bike lanes are designed for ONE purpose, while roads and sidewalks are not. I don't know how I feel. There are worse things blocking the bike lane (trucks, trees, etc.) to watch out for. So as long as the jogger doesn't make me move, I don't see anything to them.

But what really gets me is the joggers that keep on jogging in the street, with traffic, wearing headphones and wearing dark clothing at dusk. Seems like a death wish to me.

In addition to being a cyclist, I am also a runner. I have never experienced a jogging stroller in the bike lane but a solo runner hogging up the lane. The only problem that I have is they are running in the opposite direction closer to the line than curb. I can't see behind me so I need to stay within the bike lane so that I will not be hit by a car. I would much rather see one run with a stroller in the wide bike lane than on the sidewalk. Sidewalks are narrow and difficult to pass another in some areas. A runner will have more of a difficult time if he/she has to constantly pass three abreast female talking walkers and the ups and downs of sidewalk curbs. They are also harder on the knees than is asphalt. I don't do concrete for this reason.

Not true in my experience. Despite owning high-end modern shoes, my knees, lower back and hips would feel the effects of running on concrete as opposed to asphalt or on unpaved trails.

I thought the concept was funny.
I don't think comparing it to a car revving his engine is a fair comparison, because one of the vehicles weighs over a ton and Can Kill You, and the other has handlebar streamers and a bell.

My adidas Supernovas and my ankles, knees, and hips disagree.

Isn't that usually the legal requirement, as well? At least, in school they told us to walk facing traffic. It can be less desirable at night due to being blinded by headlights, though. (especially the morons with their high beams on)

Sometimes the simplest solution is right in front of us:
If anything I did made my knees, lower-back and hips hurt, I'd just stop doing it.

Nonsense.

Now, concerning joggers in "bike lanes," they often are not in "bike lanes," but are on "multi-use paths": pathways designed to be occupied by non-motorized vehicles, as well as by pedestrians looking to do more than just "stroll." There's nothing wrong with joggers' and skaters' sharing a road with bicyclists, and if the road is too congested, the answer isn't to whine about non-bikers, but to see if additional paths can be created. Why do bicyclists like "greenways" more than they do car-occupied streets? "Lack of cars, stupid!" Well, joggers often prefer M.U.P.s to sidewalks sometimes because the latter can be littered with an assortment of occupants, many of whom might be obstacles to them.

As for joggers' "getting in the way" of bicyclists (even if it's in a "bike lane," rather than on an M.U.P.), the reverse, too, can be claimed. Bike-lanes are painted onto streets to give bikers "peace of mind," in my opinion, and joggers should have the right to use them and profit from that same mindset. I think mutual respect — not a sense of entitlement from either party — is what can help roads to be most efficiently used.

Right on. If you refer to my earlier post here, you will see that I am a "former" runner.

I don't know how on Earth anyone could mistake an MUP for a bike lane, if you know what the terms actually mean. Confusing a multiuse path with a bike-only path I get, but not bike lane with any kind of path. Bike lane is a _lane_ on a _roadway_. But then, of course, ignorance is a powerful force.

I used to sometimes run on the shoulder of residential streets as sometimes the sidewalks had divets/damage and I didn't want to do an ankle going over a curb (done that just walking) wasn't a lot of bikes in my old neighbourhood, though. I got tired of losing the same toenail twice ( I hate the mutant little toenail that starts to grow!) and stopped running for now.

It would piss me off if a jogger was in a designated bike lane. I would say "you are not on a bike!"

Where do you live where the bike lanes are far wider than the sidewalks? I want to ride in these bike lanes! Bike lanes where I ride are either shoulders with signs that say no parking (where everyone parks anyways and no one gets ticketed), or tiny lanes just to the traffic side of parked cars (with most of the lane well withing door reach).

Back to the point of this thread, I have mixed feelings. I understand the plight of runners, as it is very difficult to do real training in an urban environment. And for a cyclist doing 60 miles, you can waste the first 5 miles and last 5 miles and still get in a good workout, but a runner doing 15 miles (or a jogger doing 3) don't have that luxury. However, bike lanes aren't on every street. In fact, they are only on a select few streets. As a runner/jogger, it would make complete sense to me to simply pick roads that don't have bike lanes. That's what I have always done when running, even before I was a cyclist.

Around here bike lanes are typically placed on roads that are already pretty bike-friendly. By extension, they might also be more jogger-friendly, while at the same time actually leading somewhere (if you're jogging to get to a destination, be it a grocery store or a local park, where you can do your training in a nicer environment). So I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that joggers are more likely to pick routes with bike lanes.

I have no problems with joggers on MUPs and on the road, but there is a dedicated jogging lane in large parts of Central Park (NYC) right next to the dedicated bike lane. Why are they still in the bike lane? $#(*$@$#@

AFAIK the surface is the same. and it is even separated by a curb from the bike lane and road through a lot of the park. Blows my mind.