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B&M Lumotec IQ Cyo vs Cyo R (Sport vs Near field)

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B&M Lumotec IQ Cyo vs Cyo R (Sport vs Near field)

Old 09-13-09, 09:15 AM
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B&M Lumotec IQ Cyo vs Cyo R (Sport vs Near field)

I've seen a lot of tests and praise for the Cyo, and I'm sold on it or its near-field version. However, I'm really torn about the Cyo vs Cyo R. The Cyo is brighter (60-70 lux @ 10m at my speeds) and throws the light further but has a dark area up to 4m in front, while the Cyo R is a bit dimmer (40-50 lux @ 10m at my speeds) and doesn't reach quite as far but illuminates the area close in front (2m-4m or so).

I've only seen one or two comments on bikeforums about Cyo R--almost everyone seems to have the other version. I'm hoping that more people have tried the R version by now. My questions to you are followed by my commute details:

1. If you've tried both lights, could you compare?
2. If you've tried only the R version, do you ever wish you had more light throw or a brighter hotspot?
3. If you've tried only the non-R version, do you ever wish you had some light closer to the bike or can you adjust comfortably based on seeing obstacles a few seconds earlier? Do you think you could spare 1/3 of the brightness in the hotspot?
4. Is the new chromed casing available anywhere (is it only for the Cyo Sport version)?

My commute is usually under 15mph (~25kmh) and almost never exceeding 20mph (~30kmh). After a couple of miles in town (with some streetlights), I go for a few miles on unlit rural roads (including a mile-long slow hill climb). There are occasional potholes, glass, and winter ice patches to worry about. All this makes me lean towards the less bright light with close-up illumination (i.e., Cyo R). I'm just nervous about later regretting not going for the brightest option.

Thanks a lot for any advice!
-Alexey
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Old 09-13-09, 11:13 AM
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I ride with the R version. I bought the Sport version too, for mounting on a folder, but have not put it on yet. Everybody, at least in the US, going for the Sport does not surprise me - standard tendency of going for some easily quantifiable performance. In my experience, at bicycle speeds, it is far more important to see well nearby than maximize the far-away region, so it did not take me long to decide.

Anyway, Cyo R is excellent nearby and is better than any other lamp I have used before (Bisy, Lumotec) far away. Far away traffic signs are illuminated comparably well to low-beam car headlights. Otherwise far-away illumination is needed, in my opinion, in steep descents. I have one, where I ride fast within a narrow passage, even in winter, and I feel no urge for a better illumination there.

I have got the Sport version for a folder, because the low mounting will cut the beam in such a way that an OK nearby illumination will emerge even for a beam optimized for farther distances.
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Old 09-13-09, 11:49 AM
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I have the IQ Fly which is close to the IQ Cyo in field of view, not LUX. while I sometimes would like closer illumination I find watching the road/trail so close is uncomfortable . If the road allows I prefer to see what is coming and and plan ahead, close up is to late anyway. There are lots what if's involved, good roads help ( what is that). I started out with a Nite Ride single before upgrading to the IQ Fly. I point the NR close up and switch it on when in unfamilar territory.

Price no object i would get two E3's the wide and the focused beam.
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Old 09-13-09, 03:45 PM
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Thanks for the advice, guys!

2_i, I was fully bought into your logic (and the preference for Cyo R) but my wife is derailing my decision-making. :-) Looking at the photos on the AR test (http://www.nabendynamo.de/service/pdf/ar_11-12_2008.pdf), it appears that the Cyo R light reaches to about 12m. If I'm going 20mph, which is ~9m/s, this gives me less than 2 seconds to react, which could be a little low. I suspect that the Cyo R light reaches further, though. Could you give me a rough idea of the distance at which you can identify obstacles well?

gomadtroll, I'm curious if the area 1-4m in front is really dark with the IQ Fly or simply less bright. If I see a pothole in the hotspot earlier, can I still follow it with my eyes when it's just in front, or does it simply disappear in the dark? I'd keep the light on the fork crown (with 26" wheels on my LHT--that's what you got it, isn't it?), so this should help a bit. BTW, two E3s sound like a great option but sadly price is an object. :-)

My wife is on my case to get the Cyo (non-R version), so I want to do due diligence in my research. If I make my own decision for a change (we give each other a great deal of unsolicited advice), I'd love not to hear "You should have gotten the brighter one!". :-)

-Alexey
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Old 09-13-09, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by alelog View Post
Looking at the photos on the AR test, it appears that the Cyo R light reaches to about 12m. If I'm going 20mph, which is ~9m/s, this gives me less than 2 seconds to react, which could be a little low. I suspect that the Cyo R light reaches further, though. Could you give me a rough idea of the distance at which you can identify obstacles well?
Reaching to my memory and looking at a map for distances, I realize, however disbelievable it might seem, that I regularly see shining traffic signs from the distances of the order of 200 m, illuminated by Cyo R. This is the case although the light is directed down to cover primarily intermediate and close distances. When riding I swing occasionally my front to see the results on the signs and make sure that I am not dreaming.

Originally Posted by alelog View Post
My wife is on my case to get the Cyo (non-R version), so I want to do due diligence in my research. If I make my own decision for a change (we give each other a great deal of unsolicited advice), I'd love not to hear "You should have gotten the brighter one!". :-)
If it matters for anything, my wife rides with Cyo R as well, but then she was not presented with a choice - just right away wanted to have the same lamp as I.
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Old 09-13-09, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by alelog View Post
Thanks for the advice, guys!


gomadtroll, I'm curious if the area 1-4m in front is really dark with the IQ Fly or simply less bright. If I see a pothole in the hotspot earlier, can I still follow it with my eyes when it's just in front, or does it simply disappear in the dark? I'd keep the light on the fork crown (with 26" wheels on my LHT--that's what you got it, isn't it?), so this should help a bit. BTW, two E3s sound like a great option but sadly price is an object. :-)


-Alexey
I have a 62 cm LHT. I use the Son hub for half the year, summer in Alaska doesn't require lights :-) If you are looking at the bright part of the light while riding stuff does 'disappear in dark' in front of the bike, at least for me Its a pity you can only run one headlight with the Lumotecs. I think if I only had one light it would be handy to see in front of the bike on some of my routes. Of course once the snow hits here all lights improve.
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Old 09-13-09, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by alelog View Post
I've seen a lot of tests and praise for the Cyo, and I'm sold on it or its near-field version. However, I'm really torn about the Cyo vs Cyo R. The Cyo is brighter (60-70 lux @ 10m at my speeds) and throws the light further but has a dark area up to 4m in front, while the Cyo R is a bit dimmer (40-50 lux @ 10m at my speeds) and doesn't reach quite as far but illuminates the area close in front (2m-4m or so).

I've only seen one or two comments on bikeforums about Cyo R--almost everyone seems to have the other version. I'm hoping that more people have tried the R version by now. My questions to you are followed by my commute details:

1. If you've tried both lights, could you compare?
2. If you've tried only the R version, do you ever wish you had more light throw or a brighter hotspot?
3. If you've tried only the non-R version, do you ever wish you had some light closer to the bike or can you adjust comfortably based on seeing obstacles a few seconds earlier? Do you think you could spare 1/3 of the brightness in the hotspot?
4. Is the new chromed casing available anywhere (is it only for the Cyo Sport version)?

My commute is usually under 15mph (~25kmh) and almost never exceeding 20mph (~30kmh). After a couple of miles in town (with some streetlights), I go for a few miles on unlit rural roads (including a mile-long slow hill climb). There are occasional potholes, glass, and winter ice patches to worry about. All this makes me lean towards the less bright light with close-up illumination (i.e., Cyo R). I'm just nervous about later regretting not going for the brightest option.
First of all, both version put out the same amount of lumens, so in that sense they are equally bright (they use the same LED). The difference in Lux rating comes from where they put that light; near field or far throw.

The "dark spot" (when installed correctly) is much less than 4 meters, besides, it is important to know that "dark spot" is a misnomer, the area is actually lighted, but it just appear dark because the beam spot further out is so bright.
I own the Sport version of the Cyo, and on unlit roads I doesn't feel any need for more light in the near field. In fact I think the beam shape helps me concentrate on the distance where I can still easily avoid any road obstacles, instead of looking just above my front tire. I just use peripheral vision at the near field area when I go fast, and that seems to work for me.
So on unlit roads I don't think there is much (if any) advantage to the Cyo R. I do think that the Cyo R's real advantage lies in riding not too fast on roads that are lit with street lighting, but where the are are lots of shadows. That scenario makes it harder for the Sports model to light up the area of interest and cut through the shadows.

The Sport model OTOH, simply has the best throw, so for fast riders it is arguably the best choice.

I think you will be disappointed if you think the "Silver" model is chrome plated like the B&M "Retro" model. It is described as "alu colored" and seems to be dull silver-greyish plastic, not lovely shiny metal chrome.
The German web shop www.rose.de sells the silver version, but only the R version yet:

http://www.roseversand.de/output/con...or_content_top



According to the B&M site both the Sport and the R model can be had in silver.

If you want real silver colored metal, the SON Edelux is the obvious choice:


Same optics as the Cyo, but stronger output. It is also more expensive and doesn't come in a near field version like the Cyo R.

IMHO, the way you describe your route and riding style, you won't go wrong with neither of them.
But I know the agony of choosing between the two models (they are expensive after all), and for a while I wished that I could have tried both models. But now I don't think about it anymore; it just work so splendidly for my use.


--
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Old 09-13-09, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
Reaching to my memory and looking at a map for distances, I realize, however disbelievable it might seem, that I regularly see shining traffic signs from the distances of the order of 200 m, illuminated by Cyo R. This is the case although the light is directed down to cover primarily intermediate and close distances. When riding I swing occasionally my front to see the results on the signs and make sure that I am not dreaming.
I regularly ride a long unlit stretch of road that according to googlemaps are at least 0,5 km long, and I have no problem making road signs lit up at that distance with my Cyo Sport. This is partly because modern reflective materials are amazing, so that any 160-180 lumens flashlight could do it, but also because the cut-off design of the light isn't just a case of directing the hot spot downwards to the ground. The Cyo optics put a limit on how much light there is above a certain height, but below that height, part of the beam continue towards "infinity".

--
Regards
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Old 09-13-09, 08:24 PM
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Does the sun edelux like posted above come with a "quick connect" fitting like the Lumotec IQ?
If not, how does it attach to the hub?
And does it come with any mounts for attaching to the bike?
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Old 09-14-09, 03:25 AM
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For a time i had both on my commuter. I ride in town at mostly slower speeds (Ave 15mph). I wound up preferring the R and kept that on the bike (I will use the other on a different bike).

I found the down the road brightness nearly the same in both units. I like the near field illumination on the R because of the poor road conditions i generally encounter.
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Old 09-14-09, 11:18 AM
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I was wondering the exact same thing regarding which CYO to choose.

Thanks for starting the thread and thanks everyone for the input, really helpful.
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Old 09-14-09, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by d2create View Post
Does the sun edelux like posted above come with a "quick connect" fitting like the Lumotec IQ?
If not, how does it attach to the hub?
And does it come with any mounts for attaching to the bike?
I don't know any of that for the edelux but I like the supernova fork crown mount which I'm sure would work fine w/ the edelux.

The light I use didn't come with a quick connect, but the hub did, so I just spliced the connector from the hub onto the wire from the light.
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Old 09-14-09, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by alelog View Post
Thanks for the advice, guys!

2_i, I was fully bought into your logic (and the preference for Cyo R) but my wife is derailing my decision-making. :-) Looking at the photos on the AR test (http://www.nabendynamo.de/service/pdf/ar_11-12_2008.pdf), it appears that the Cyo R light reaches to about 12m. If I'm going 20mph, which is ~9m/s, this gives me less than 2 seconds to react, which could be a little low. I suspect that the Cyo R light reaches further, though. Could you give me a rough idea of the distance at which you can identify obstacles well?

gomadtroll, I'm curious if the area 1-4m in front is really dark with the IQ Fly or simply less bright. If I see a pothole in the hotspot earlier, can I still follow it with my eyes when it's just in front, or does it simply disappear in the dark? I'd keep the light on the fork crown (with 26" wheels on my LHT--that's what you got it, isn't it?), so this should help a bit. BTW, two E3s sound like a great option but sadly price is an object. :-)

My wife is on my case to get the Cyo (non-R version), so I want to do due diligence in my research. If I make my own decision for a change (we give each other a great deal of unsolicited advice), I'd love not to hear "You should have gotten the brighter one!". :-)

-Alexey

I own the Cyo Sport (60 Lux).

I actually bought an Ixon IQ (same reflector, same company, battery version, 40 lux). After using my Cyo, I rode an hour home one night on a route that involves some streets, some totally unlit path, etc. I felt that it put out *just* enough light to see by, but not enough to actually feel *comfortable* riding around with. Being used to my Cyo (on my winter bike) I was surprised to find myself running over small item on the road that I couldn't even make out with my light. I definitely did not feel that 40 lux was putting enough light on the road, and being that they use the same reflector and are rated by the same company (thus it's an accurate comparison) I would highly recommend the 60 lux version over the 40.

And the fact that you're mounting it on the fork crown also makes me mention the same recommendation. I had mine on the handlebars (for a while) and the "less lit up spot" was borderline enough light (in that spot) for dodging stuff on the road. More would be more comfortable, but not "required". But now that it's mounted down by the fork crown it's no longer an issue. It jut means by tire isn't lit up as much, which is certainly a good thing. So again, I would recommend the 60 lux version.

Finally, I would recommend the 60 lux version because it would still be useful if you guess wrong. If you get the 40 lux version and need more range, you'd have to spend $100 and either replace your light or deal with recharging batteries every day (for a high enough powered light) to make up for it. If you get the 60 lux version and don't like the dark spot, you can buy a $30 bike light which lasts for 100 hours on rechargeable batteries to fill in the light gap and only have to change batteries once a week. Heck, I don't know, you might be able to buy a Reellight (you put a magnet on the wheel which powers the light) to fill in the gap. Not sure if they come in non-flashing versions or not.

And if you decided to sell your Cyo right now because you got the wrong version, I think the 60 lux version would be a lot easier to sell. :-)

I would definitely recommend the 60 Lux Cyo. The only other tenable option would be to buy the Edelux at twice as much money - you gotta figure with a little more light, there's got to be a little more light in the spill area. But with your fork mount, I think that if the 60 lux cyo puts enough light on the road for you, the gap won't be a problem. IMO.
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Old 09-16-09, 01:58 PM
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Thank you all very much for advice! I've been agonizing for a while but I finally made up my mind. I'll be getting the non-R (Sport) version. The last time I had such a hard time deciding was... well, last night choosing a beer. Decisions are not my strong point. :-)

I was leaning heavily towards the R version but I had a couple of concerns (and my wife's voice): (i) I fear the distraction of the light shining on the fender, the rack, and the road close by and (ii) I fear not having enough light for the faster (and longer) portion of my commute on unlit rural roads. The stronger light should help compete with car lights on a narrow rural road. Chances are that the R version would be just fine, but if it isn't, solving its limitations would be a bit harder than solving those of the non-R version, as Paul Rivers suggested.

I won't hold out for the aluminum-colored finish (thanks for the clarification, Interested). Peter White won't get them until the end of October and I will be riding in complete darkness by then (I refuse to go back to battery lights).

2_i and cupsal, I hope you don't think less of me for going the "easily quantifiable" route. :-) BTW, I found one very opinionated review of the R version. I now feel "wrong" in choosing the non-R version :-) : http://www.cyclebanter.com/showthread.php?t=206492

What I really hope is that B&M will start selling replacement lenses (they do for some taillights and the basic Lumotec light). Wouldn't it be great, if you could buy the other lens, and switch between the two, e.g., for commuting versus touring? (Of course, it may be undesirable to take the light apart, if there is a good weather seal.) Oh, well...

Thanks a lot again for your decision support. :-) I might report on any interesting findings after using the light for a while.
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Old 09-16-09, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by alelog View Post
BTW, I found one very opinionated review of the R version. I now feel "wrong" in choosing the non-R version :-) : http://www.cyclebanter.com/showthread.php?t=206492
Just ignore "Andre Jute"'s postings. He posts under many different names in the "rec.bicycles.tech" usenet group. Several people has described him as a "long winded pompous hot air balloon". Probably not a "troll" as such, but more likely a sad case of untreated personality problems (some of his post are rather disturbing in their rage). He is rather clueless about most bicycling related things, and tries to hide that fact behind mountains of "opinionated" words, that always seems to drip of malice and suppressed rage.

So ignore it and just go with your own much more sensible reasoning.

--
Regards
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Old 09-16-09, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by alelog View Post
2_i and cupsal, I hope you don't think less of me for going the "easily quantifiable" route. :-) BTW, I found one very opinionated review of the R version. I now feel "wrong" in choosing the non-R version :-) : http://www.cyclebanter.com/showthread.php?t=206492

What I really hope is that B&M will start selling replacement lenses (they do for some taillights and the basic Lumotec light). Wouldn't it be great, if you could buy the other lens, and switch between the two, e.g., for commuting versus touring? (Of course, it may be undesirable to take the light apart, if there is a good weather seal.) Oh, well...

Thanks a lot again for your decision support. :-) I might report on any interesting findings after using the light for a while.
It is your bike and your route and you need to be happy. We'll be waiting for your observations, since we discussed both likely advantages as well as possible disadvantages of the Sport version. Within the dynamo halogen market, the two best lamps, Bisy and Nova, stood above the rest in the beam shape, not brightness.

I have actually taken the IQ Cyo partly apart in the past and it was a bit messy, from what I recall. The lens could have been integrated with the reflector. The LED with the radiator slipped inside in my recollection.
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Old 09-16-09, 10:36 PM
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Glad to hear my post was useful! :-)
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Old 09-17-09, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by interested View Post
Just ignore "Andre Jute"'s postings. He posts under many different names in the "rec.bicycles.tech" usenet group. Several people has described him as a "long winded pompous hot air balloon". Probably not a "troll" as such, but more likely a sad case of untreated personality problems (some of his post are rather disturbing in their rage). He is rather clueless about most bicycling related things, and tries to hide that fact behind mountains of "opinionated" words, that always seems to drip of malice and suppressed rage.
Yes, the strongly worded statements seemed like a cry-out for attention. He mentioned some useful points but the presentation is not how one should go about giving advice. :-)

Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
I have actually taken the IQ Cyo partly apart in the past and it was a bit messy, from what I recall. The lens could have been integrated with the reflector. The LED with the radiator slipped inside in my recollection.
I feared that this was the case. Oh, well...

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Glad to hear my post was useful! :-)
Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
It is your bike and your route and you need to be happy. We'll be waiting for your observations, since we discussed both likely advantages as well as possible disadvantages of the Sport version. Within the dynamo halogen market, the two best lamps, Bisy and Nova, stood above the rest in the beam shape, not brightness.
Yes, thank you all very much for the input! My wheel is likely ready and the light should come in soon. In another couple of weeks, I will be riding home in the dark most evenings. I'll report on my experiences after a couple of weeks of commuting with my new setup. BTW, one of the reasons that I chose an LED light is that I have a mile-long uphill that slows me down to as little as 4 mph for a bit. Most halogen lights require ~5.5 mph for full power. In any case, LEDs seem to be the way of the future. :-)

Cheers and talk to y'all soon!
-Alexey
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Old 10-09-09, 07:22 PM
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Some problem with my main bike has prompted me to activate my back-up folder and to mount an IQ Cyo Sport, in waiting, onto that folder. This, on one hand, has allowed me to experience the operation of the lamp with a bottle dynamo, and, on the other, to compare IQ Cyo Sport with R. Cyo R has been my standard lamp up to now.

I have been astounded by the quality of operation of IQ Cyo with a bottle dynamo in the rain. Basically, the standlight mechanism and lamp's low power consumption allow the lamp to repair the ills of the bottle dynamo. The dynamo working with a standard halogen lamp slips, the lamp dims or even goes out, comes back again etc. None of that has been happening with IQ Cyo that shined nicely at unchanged intensity throughout the ride in the rain.

As to the beam of Cyo Sport, its shape is inferior to either Cyo R or Bisy. On a garage door the shape is just a horizontal bar, such as for poorer halogen lamps. On the ground, even with the low mounting on a folder, the lamp yields a significant dark area at intermediate distances in front of the rider. The dark area cannot be eliminated by adjusting the tilt of the lamp. The far away distances are improved compared to Cyo R, but this is practically irrelevant. Cyo R already illuminates the far-away distances rather well. A further improvement, increase in the range that one anyway barely sees, is of little significance. However, the introduction of a dark band in the region of immediate importance is plain bad.

If one rides in complete darkness, then one can see the details within the dark band. However, when there are other lights in the vicinity that distract and partly blind, then one needs to memorize the details from the illuminated far-away region and utilize that memory once the region enters the relative darkness. One situation when the dark band might be of reduced importance is of a rather fast ride when the eyesight needs to be anyway lifted up and one either assumes that the ground has no obstacles and/or one gives up the reacting to the obstacles.
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Old 10-10-09, 03:04 PM
  #20  
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I wonder a little if the differences between a folding bike and a regular bike (the wheel is half as big, does this mean a fork mounted light is lower? does it mean the smaller wheel makes a bigger blind spot? does a smaller more responsive wheel mean that you have more of a chance to react to things closer to you, whereas the less responsive bigger wheel makes light closer to you less relevant?). I don't really know, in the end I would lean towards guessing that it's mostly a matter of preference.

While I certainly wouldn't mind if the Cyo put out a little more light closer to the big, my feeling on the subject is just different from yours. I wonder if you ride, on average, at slower speeds that I do? On my commuter bike, I typically ride between 15 and 20mph. You are technically correct about the whole "memorize the details from the illuminated far-away region and utilize that memory once the region enters the relative darkness" but for me that are it lights up is the range that I'm looking at anyways, and the time between seeing something and reaching it is about the same as the time it takes me to react to it. By the time something on the road enters that dark area, if I haven't already seen it and started reacting to it, it's at most difficult and most likely impossible for me to do anything to avoid it because my body and my bike simply don't react fast enough. Imagine your're coasting downhill at 20mph and something magically appears on the road 5 feet in front of you. At that speed, at that distance, I'm already screwed. It doesn't matter whether I see it or not, there isn't even time for my brain to process it, then get my body to move before I hit it.

So at the speeds I ride at, I feel like the regular Cyo pretty much lights up that area "that matters".

At the same time, the farther away I can see something the more time I have to react to it, so I find the reach of the light very imporant. Of course, the speed you're travelling at makes a huge difference in how far away that point is, as well as a few other "personal opinion" factors for how far away you like to be able to see. One problem I have with the Cyo is that it's difficult to get the angle just right where it's illuminating far enough ahead on the road for my taste, but isn't so high that the main part of the beam hits people in the face. I've found I *have* to have it mounted near the fork or it always ends up to high for people, but the right height for illluminating the road.

And as I believe I mentioned earlier, I own a Ixon IQ, which supposedly puts out 40 lux of light - just like the Cyo Nearfield. It's not that I think it doesn't reach far enough, but I do feel like when it reaches far enough, the light isn't quite hitting the road intensely enough to light it up enough for me. I've hit twigs and stuff that were large enough to feel though the tire, but I didn't even see because of the brightness of the light. Haven't had this happen with the Cyo all the time like it did with the 40 lux ixon iq.

I think both our opinions are interesting for other people trying to decide, based on their riding speed and personal preference for what kind of lighting they prefer. I just want to be clear I'm not trying to say you're "wrong" or something any more than I am, just that opinions vary.
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Old 10-10-09, 06:11 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
I wonder a little if the differences between a folding bike and a regular bike (the wheel is half as big, does this mean a fork mounted light is lower? does it mean the smaller wheel makes a bigger blind spot? does a smaller more responsive wheel mean that you have more of a chance to react to things closer to you, whereas the less responsive bigger wheel makes light closer to you less relevant?). I don't really know, in the end I would lean towards guessing that it's mostly a matter of preference.
In both cases, I have mounted the lamp at the crown level, i.e. the difference is of the lamp above either 20" or 29" wheel. In terms of illumination of intermediate distances this should work in favor of the folder.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
While I certainly wouldn't mind if the Cyo put out a little more light closer to the big, my feeling on the subject is just different from yours.
There is no good excuse for a lamp not to illuminate intermediate distances. Given, however, how many lamps fail to do that, this is apparently technically not that easy. I have accumulated, over time, a couple of dozens of different dynamo lamps. To predict how the shape of a beam will work in practice all one needs is to shine the beam on a garage door. For a decent performance, the patch needs to have a uniform vertical extension just as well as the horizontal. From the past lamps, only two, Bisy/E6 and Nova, produced rectangular/trapezoidal patches and worked well in practice. IQ Cyo R yields comparable vertical extension to Bisy, in its brightest area, see:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=510761

IQ Cyo Sport yields more just of a horizontal line, like Lumotec or other secondary or tertiary halogen lamps. When I have time maybe I should a photo of both of those lamps together, for a comparison.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
I wonder if you ride, on average, at slower speeds that I do? On my commuter bike, I typically ride between 15 and 20mph.
I am certainly a slow rider and I am sure that matters.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Imagine your're coasting downhill at 20mph and something magically appears on the road 5 feet in front of you. At that speed, at that distance, I'm already screwed. It doesn't matter whether I see it or not, there isn't even time for my brain to process it, then get my body to move before I hit it.
I fully agree with this. However, why not having a lamp that illuminates the intermediate distances as well?

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
So at the speeds I ride at, I feel like the regular Cyo pretty much lights up that area "that matters".
I think that there may be many people who will feel that Cyo Sport is adequate for their needs. Many people have also liked Lumotec and to me it was always at best a second-rate lamp. One problem is with the area I ride through. The roads in Michigan are bad. You would have hard time finding this sort of quality anywhere in Europe, including Eastern. In addition, it is often windy and there are plenty of twigs lying around. When I can, I use sidewalks where bikes are legal and where there are hardly ever any pedestrians. The sidewalks bring obstacles of their own that are hard to see at night.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
One problem I have with the Cyo is that it's difficult to get the angle just right where it's illuminating far enough ahead on the road for my taste, but isn't so high that the main part of the beam hits people in the face. I've found I *have* to have it mounted near the fork or it always ends up to high for people, but the right height for illluminating the road.
When I mounted a lamp on a fork, it usually ended up being destroyed around a bike parking rack.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
And as I believe I mentioned earlier, I own a Ixon IQ, which supposedly puts out 40 lux of light - just like the Cyo Nearfield. It's not that I think it doesn't reach far enough, but I do feel like when it reaches far enough, the light isn't quite hitting the road intensely enough to light it up enough for me. I've hit twigs and stuff that were large enough to feel though the tire, but I didn't even see because of the brightness of the light. Haven't had this happen with the Cyo all the time like it did with the 40 lux ixon iq.
I do not think that peak illumination is in itself that important. Imagine that you use a laser with which you can beat any any other light source. So what, you will just see an illuminated point that brings you zero information about what is ahead of you. This is, of course, taking it to extreme, but I just want to make a point that lux # is not all that matters.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
I think both our opinions are interesting for other people trying to decide, based on their riding speed and personal preference for what kind of lighting they prefer. I just want to be clear I'm not trying to say you're "wrong" or something any more than I am, just that opinions vary.
Sure. However, in all of this, I have been surprise by my findings. I went after R, rather than Sport, based on rational reasoning. My anticipation, though, was that the difference between the two would be more marginal. I thought that Sport would be an OK lamp for the folder and now I regret that I bought it.
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Old 10-11-09, 01:18 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
There is no good excuse for a lamp not to illuminate intermediate distances. Given, however, how many lamps fail to do that, this is apparently technically not that easy.
Personally, I wouldn't assume it was a technical issue (especially after they've gone to so much work to shape the beam), I would assume most of these companies believe consumers prefer to have more light up ahead rather than less light up ahead and more light close to the bike. Or alternatively, it's not unreasonable to think that perhaps they figure everyone buys lights based on the lumens/lux rating, and they can give it a higher lumen/lux rating by concentrating more farther ahead of the bike rather than lighting the area immediately in front of it, thus doing it for no reason other than marketing.

Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
I am certainly a slow rider and I am sure that matters.
I think this is most likely the crux of the issue. If I go twice as fast, I need to be able to see...twice as far ahead? The beam can have twice as big of a gap in front of it for me as it can for you. Likewise, what you consider "increase in the range that one anyway barely sees" is for me the part of the road I really need to be able to see when cruising down a hill, and it's rather nice when I'm on the flat, to.

Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
I fully agree with this. However, why not having a lamp that illuminates the intermediate distances as well?
Because on a dynamo light you only have so much power, so if you use light in one place that means you've lost it somewhere else.

I don't really disagree that it would be rather nice if they illuminated more of the road close to the bike. When I first got the light, I remember thinking that it would nice if that gap between the main part of the light and the front of the wheel were lit up about twice as much. But we disgree on whether this is a really important issue or just an annoyance.

Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
I do not think that peak illumination is in itself that important. Imagine that you use a laser with which you can beat any any other light source. So what, you will just see an illuminated point that brings you zero information about what is ahead of you. This is, of course, taking it to extreme, but I just want to make a point that lux # is not all that matters.
I think you missed the reason I was making the comparison. What I was saying is that while I haven't myself used the Cyo Nearfield (40 lux), I have used another light that has the same lux rating and uses the exact same beam pattern, minus the nearfield part. I used the lux rating simply to say that I used another light that should, theoretically, put out exactly the same amount of light as the Cyo nearfield. And I felt it didn't put out an intense enough light to really light up the road so I could see small hole, twigs, etc. I was saying that I imagine I would have the same feeling with the light intensity of the Cyo nearfield.

This also relates to why I would or wouldn't insist that the light lights that gap in front of the bike - I think it would nice if that area was lit up more (while you find it very important), but I wouldn't be willing to give up the greater intensity in the main area of the beam, which I find is very important (though you do not).


Seems like perhaps a good criteria for which version to choose might be "How fast do you typically ride?". Still, other people have certainly disagreed with me, but I personally felt that the Lumotec lights (that all share that same/similar beam pattern) that put out 40 lux didn't put out an intense enough light on the road for me to see obstacles clearly. You wouldn't be the first person to feel differently than I do, but that was my feeling having tried it.
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Old 10-11-09, 11:30 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Personally, I wouldn't assume it was a technical issue (especially after they've gone to so much work to shape the beam), I would assume most of these companies believe consumers prefer to have more light up ahead rather than less light up ahead and more light close to the bike. Or alternatively, it's not unreasonable to think that perhaps they figure everyone buys lights based on the lumens/lux rating, and they can give it a higher lumen/lux rating by concentrating more farther ahead of the bike rather than lighting the area immediately in front of it, thus doing it for no reason other than marketing.
I think that, on one hand, you underestimate the complexity of the optical problem, both from the mathematical and engineering points of view. On the other hand, most of the successful manufacturers of dynamo lights are in Germany and Switzerland and the bulk of their customers are in those 2 countries + Austria, Netherlands and Denmark. I do not think that the riders in those countries get primarily swayed by the lux values more than anything else - the societies there tend to be more multidimensional in a variety of ways. E.g. many might be bothered by the fact that they could blind the passer-bys.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
I think this is most likely the crux of the issue. If I go twice as fast, I need to be able to see...twice as far ahead? The beam can have twice as big of a gap in front of it for me as it can for you. Likewise, what you consider "increase in the range that one anyway barely sees" is for me the part of the road I really need to be able to see when cruising down a hill, and it's rather nice when I'm on the flat, to.
That is clear, the distance over which one looks reflects the reaction time. The faster you go, the farther you need to look. However, even a fast rider may eventually reach a difficult terrain where he needs to slow down and look over nearby details.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Because on a dynamo light you only have so much power, so if you use light in one place that means you've lost it somewhere else.
Surprisingly, IQ Cyo consumes less than a third of the power of an incandescent lamp. I wonder whether Edelux consumes more. There is a lot of power that could be utilized e.g. by an additional emitter.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
I don't really disagree that it would be rather nice if they illuminated more of the road close to the bike. When I first got the light, I remember thinking that it would nice if that gap between the main part of the light and the front of the wheel were lit up about twice as much. But we disgree on whether this is a really important issue or just an annoyance.
Sure.

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
I think you missed the reason I was making the comparison. What I was saying is that while I haven't myself used the Cyo Nearfield (40 lux), I have used another light that has the same lux rating and uses the exact same beam pattern, minus the nearfield part. I used the lux rating simply to say that I used another light that should, theoretically, put out exactly the same amount of light as the Cyo nearfield. And I felt it didn't put out an intense enough light to really light up the road so I could see small hole, twigs, etc. I was saying that I imagine I would have the same feeling with the light intensity of the Cyo nearfield.
Well, I made a mistake thinking that Ixon IQ was an earlier LED lamp by B&M and so could have had less developed optics. Looking closer, it appears that it has similar optics to IQ Cyo Sport not Cyo R, as it lacks the refractive lens. Here we could argue again why Ixon IQ fails to illuminate near-field. You would say that this was because of a too low lux-value. I would say because of the beam shape. Bisy has no problem illuminating near-field with only 17 lux.

Well, we are coming to this:

Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
This also relates to why I would or wouldn't insist that the light lights that gap in front of the bike - I think it would nice if that area was lit up more (while you find it very important), but I wouldn't be willing to give up the greater intensity in the main area of the beam, which I find is very important (though you do not).
It is OK, maybe even unavoidable, to differ in these or other priorities.
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Old 10-11-09, 04:28 PM
  #24  
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I see that the OP has already decided on the non-R version, but I thought I'd throw in my experience with the R version (only). I have the light mounted on the front right mount of the Velo Orange Randonneur rack on my randonneuring bike (with SON 28). I really like the near field feature, as I find it very useful to avoid road debris (probably because I am not a fast rider). The only times I wished for more light was while doing fast-ish descents on twisty roads. Don't know if the Cyo would have made a significant difference in that case, but my guess is, probably not.

Either version with a good dynohub is a great lighting solution.
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Old 10-22-09, 11:40 PM
  #25  
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Do those of you using the Cyo find it's harder to pedal with the light on than off? Using the Lumotec, on or off makes no difference (as far as I can feel). I understand, though, some lights create more felt friction.

Thanks.
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