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CrossCheck Lighting Hub - Yay or Nay?

Old 10-20-09, 12:10 AM
  #1  
divtag
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CrossCheck Lighting Hub - Yay or Nay?

I have a Surly CrossCheck which is my all around bike. I commute a few times a week (only ~3.5 miles), get groceries, grab a bit to eat, ride longer rides on the weekends (30+), and plan to tour next summer.

I teach, so I am often out before it gets dark, even in winter, but sometimes not. I like the idea of the generator hubs, but that means a new wheel. Which = $$. Also, I wonder if it has an effect on my usual weekend riding? I am also working my way to LD riding and wanting to be able to do centuries. Will a generator hub make that more challenging or have any side effects in regards to LD riding?
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Old 10-20-09, 12:27 AM
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I would do it in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact, my next bike is planned to be another all-purpose bike, with a slight focus on centuries. I'm hoping to find funding for a Soma Double Cross, so my concept is quite close to yours. I'm going to initially have a pair of standard road wheels built, then once funding comes, have a matching wheel built with a generator hub, that I can then switch in/out as needed.

Remember, it's just another wheel, it can be taken off and your old wheel put back on.
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Old 10-20-09, 12:50 AM
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IMO it will add about a pound or a bit more to the bike weight. No to minimal effect on handling. The big advantage IMO is once the hub and dynamo lights are installed you have lights available as needed with no worry about dead batteries or forgetting a battery pack etc. The dyno hub does have some drag even with the lights off due to the permanent magnets used in the generator. Once built into a wheel pretty much unnoticeable, at least to me.

Dynamo hubs are available from Shimano, Sturmey Archer, SRAM, and Schmidt SON as well as some others. I have the Shimano Alfine hub on my dyno hub bike. The Schmidt hubs are the most expensive and with the lowest drag per Peter White Cycles with the high end Shimano hubs next so far as I know. Lots of hub generator information is available on the Peter White Cycles web site.

The Busch & Muller Lumotec IQ Senso Cyo light is excellent and includes a standlight function. Schmidt and Supernova lights are also excellent, but expensive. Peter White Cycles imports all of them. There is also now a American made high power dynamo light set available from Light On!. I have it on order for my generator hub bike.
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Old 10-20-09, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by divtag View Post
I have a Surly CrossCheck which is my all around bike. I commute a few times a week (only ~3.5 miles), get groceries, grab a bit to eat, ride longer rides on the weekends (30+), and plan to tour next summer.

I teach, so I am often out before it gets dark, even in winter, but sometimes not. I like the idea of the generator hubs, but that means a new wheel. Which = $$. Also, I wonder if it has an effect on my usual weekend riding? I am also working my way to LD riding and wanting to be able to do centuries. Will a generator hub make that more challenging or have any side effects in regards to LD riding?
The drag from a modern Shimano generator hub is around 1.5 watt at 20 km/h with the lights off. That is absolutely nothing. SON hubs like the SON 20R has even lower drag at 0.5 watt at 20 km/h, is lighter (below 400 gram) but also more expensive. Even with the lights on the drag isn't much; at 20 km/h it is 6 watt for a modern Shimano, and 4 watt for the SON 20R. There is a bicycling calculator somewhere on the net that can translate those figures into speed, but it is negligible, and eg. your tire choice can easily means a 10-20 watt difference in effort.

In short, nothing to worry about regarding speed, even at long distance events.


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Old 10-20-09, 06:00 AM
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I am looking at getting one on my Cross Check too. I would make sure to get LED light with a switch on it.
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Old 10-20-09, 10:00 AM
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I have a 2 yr old shimano hub and there is no detectable difference between it and the XT hub it replaced. I just leave the light on all the time now, I love it.
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Old 10-20-09, 11:27 AM
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I have a Cross Check outfitted with a SON28/DT RR1.1 front wheel powering a Supernova E3 headlight and taillight. I do not turn them off, and I can honestly say that the drag effect is not on my list of concerns. This bike is my commuter and my LD bike, and I've done rides up to 400k with it. Riding all night means having a lighting system you can be confident in, and the generator is definitely it.

Now, the SON hub is a pricey little bugger and there are reliable and far less expensive ways to go. I was actually just pricing out parts to build a new generator based front for another of my bikes and found that I could build up a good system for under $300.

Sun CR-18 rim = $36 (Velo-Orange)
Shimano 3N72 36h hub = $95 (Harris Cyclery)
DT Champ. spokes = $28 (LBS)
B&M Cyo lamp = $120 (LBS)
Total = $279

One thing to consider with a generator system is that you do need to have a helmet mounted "work lamp" in case you flat out at night. Unlike a battery based system which you can use as a task lamp when the bike is stationary, a generator system is only providing reasonable light when you're moving. I prefer the Princeton Tec Quad; 4 LEDs, 3 brightness levels plus a blinkie mode (good for foggy roads or signalling that you've fallen off the back and need a regroup.)
As for the generator lamp itself, stay away from halogens for 2 reasons: They're easier to damage the bulb, which if you're riding at night is immediately noticeable... not so much during the day, and running on a broken bulb can damage the entire system. Bulb intensity isn't as great as new, modestly priced LED lamps. The IQ Cyo and Fly series are both plenty of light for the average rider and can be had for $90 - $125.

Regarding the concerns about LD riding being more of a challenge with a generator hub, read this article from BQ about Jan Heine's 2007 sub-50hr PBP finish. 1200km through wind and rain and dark of night on a 1973 Alex Singer with a SON28 hub and Schmidt E6 lamp. Sure, Jan is just fast as all get out to start with... But even he admits (on the time penalty system for the Cyclos Montagnards) that the difference between a generator and battery system is a minimal 1.5% (non-generator equipped riders are assessed a 1.5% overall time penalty on Cyclos Mont. events).
While that may make a world of difference if you're trying to qualify for his very elite group of long distance riders, the difference of an extra Watt or two at the cranks to overcome the hub resistance of a generator is insignificant.
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Old 10-20-09, 11:49 AM
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700c dyno wheel $145 (plus shipping)
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Old 10-20-09, 12:05 PM
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Yay.
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Old 10-20-09, 01:18 PM
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I currently have a hub generator/drum brake on my short distance upright (the Speedster in my sig) and want to get one built for my LHT. I use the LHT for commuting and had it built for touring. The other people I tour with are batter light folks, but after 3 years of commuting with a generator hub and the nice lights you can get for them I'm hooked. I strongly recommend it.
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Old 10-20-09, 01:47 PM
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1HP = ~750 watts

Originally Posted by interested View Post
The drag from a modern Shimano generator hub is around 1.5 watt at 20 km/h with the lights off
1.5W/750W = 0.002HP, you're right, pretty hard to detect


...at 20 km/h it is 6 watt for a modern Shimano, and 4 watt for the SON 20R....
Where did you get these numbers? Is this for the same 3W light?
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Old 10-20-09, 01:52 PM
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I am thinking of putting a dyno on my commuter.

What kind of burn can I get from the lights? I saw one review of a light -- the reviewer loved it -- but it was throwing 40 lumens.

Can't we do better than that? I'm chucking a couple of hundred lumens out there with my P-7.

I hate to go backward in the lumen race.
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Old 10-20-09, 01:58 PM
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I can drive 3 SSC LEDs in series with my Shimano -71 dynohub, that should be ~150 actual Lumens in a good light. Can't drive a P7 from a dynohub, not enough voltage in a 6V unit. There's a few garage guys selling $300 3 LED lights, too steep for me, I need to DIY a light.
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Old 10-20-09, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by HardyWeinberg View Post
700c dyno wheel $145 (plus shipping)
Same wheel for $141. Clearly, they're coming from somewhere. The hub on that wheel is $103 at Bikeman.
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Old 10-20-09, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SlimAgainSoon View Post
I am thinking of putting a dyno on my commuter.

What kind of burn can I get from the lights? I saw one review of a light -- the reviewer loved it -- but it was throwing 40 lumens.

Can't we do better than that? I'm chucking a couple of hundred lumens out there with my P-7.

I hate to go backward in the lumen race.
A B&M IQ Cyo Sport delivers around 150-180 lumens. But there is more to a good light than lumens; B&M lights have superior CAD designed optics that places those lumens where you need them on the road. They are also designed not to blind oncoming traffic. For some this is a good thing, others seems to ride in environments where deliberately blinding motorist with as much light as possible is considered a good survival strategy, or just ride where there is almost no traffic. There as lots of DIY generator lights solutions delivering +500 lumens, but AFAIK they all have "inferior" flash light optics. This commercial solution (US made) delivers 350 lumens: https://lightonlights.com/dynolight/


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Old 10-20-09, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by SlimAgainSoon View Post
I am thinking of putting a dyno on my commuter.

What kind of burn can I get from the lights? I saw one review of a light -- the reviewer loved it -- but it was throwing 40 lumens.

Can't we do better than that? I'm chucking a couple of hundred lumens out there with my P-7.

I hate to go backward in the lumen race.
Contrary to popular belief, it ain't about the lumens. What you need to check out with most of the new LED generator lights is the beam pattern and the lux rating. Lumens only account for the raw output of a light, not for what it looks like on the roadway. A high lumen lamp with crappy optics will have a lower lux rating at the same distance. (Lux, IIRC, is a measure of lumens/m^2)
Look on Peter White's site at the comparison of beam patterns for generator lights. The Cyo and Supernova and Edelux asymmetric lights are less expensive (after initial investment in the generator wheel) than many 400 lumen battery systems, but put more light to the roadway without the necessity for carrying extra batteries to extend your ride time beyond 4 hours.
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Old 10-20-09, 04:47 PM
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I took the plunge and invested in a SON dynohub and Supernova E3 headlight and taillight. It took awhile to save for, but my commuter bike is now a reliable means of transportation at night.

I ride my bike even more now, since I know the lights will always be there, just like in my car. I get a little more 'respect' from cars on the road - I think they mistake me for a motorcycle now!

The optics in the E3 throw the beam out far enough to ride at a decent clip - at 25 MPH I don't feel like I'm going too fast for my lights. The spill is good, too. I can see road signs clearly and there's no 'tunnel effect'.

Go for it! You will never regret it! A good quality dynohub and light setup will last for many years.

As someone on here said, "Buy once, cry once."
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Old 10-20-09, 09:12 PM
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Yay. Definitely.

I swear, if more people went for a good dynohub & light setup right away, they wouldn't have wasted so much time, effort, and money on battery lighting. I have lights sitting in a box that may never get used again; I should donate them or something.
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Old 10-20-09, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HardyWeinberg View Post
700c dyno wheel $145 (plus shipping)
That is my kind of price range. I need something that will hold up to some abuse. The touring bug has been come an itch that needs scratching and I occasionally take my Cross Check off the beaten path.
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Old 10-20-09, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by divtag View Post
That is my kind of price range. I need something that will hold up to some abuse. The touring bug has been come an itch that needs scratching and I occasionally take my Cross Check off the beaten path.
They also seem to carry, though currently out of stock, an Alfine dynohub paired with a Velocity Dyad, that is a serious touring rim, for not much more than I paid my wheel builder to build a 36H Dyad/Tiagra front rim. Looks like a very good deal to me.
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Old 10-21-09, 11:14 AM
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I loved the dynohub that I had on my bike 55 hears ago. However with the low cost and long battery life of LED lights now available, I cant see the need. I have 5 LED lights at the front of my bike, and If the batteries go dead in one I still have enough light.
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Old 10-21-09, 12:10 PM
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I switched to a generator hub a few years ago, and for me there's no going back. Having a light that's always there and requires no upkeep makes a bike feel so much more practical to me. Life is complicated enough without having to change batteries.

The drag is pretty negligible even on long rides, as long as you're not racing. I've often done 50+ mile rides with a generator hub. Even serious randonneurs use them.
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Old 10-21-09, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
The drag is pretty negligible even on long rides, as long as you're not racing. I've often done 50+ mile rides with a generator hub. Even serious randonneurs use them.
It's more like all the serious randonneurs use them. Light AA powered lamps are considered to be the 'requisite backups' when necessary, but I can't think of any battery powered lamps which would last for a 600 - 1200k brevet; On a 600k it's possible to be out for 1.5 nights. Even for a summer ride with short nights, that's over 10 hours of necessary lighting. If you're carrying enough batteries for that amount of burn time the weight is more than that of a generator hub.

Andrew - you talk about the long life of batteries in LED lights, and for commuting applications or even for fall/winter century rides a good Li battery pack or two is enough for most people. You can get 4 - 7 hours of burn time and be fine. If you live in an area like the PNW or north Atlantic coast where days can be barely more than a dull grey for weeks on end in the winter, lights are a good idea any time you're on the road. I like the security of leaving my generator lights on all the time and supplementing them with my PBSF blinkies when the sun goes down. I'm never worried that my bike isn't well lit.
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Old 10-21-09, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AndrewP View Post
I loved the dynohub that I had on my bike 55 hears ago. However with the low cost and long battery life of LED lights now available, I cant see the need. I have 5 LED lights at the front of my bike, and If the batteries go dead in one I still have enough light.
The good thing about LEDs now is that the bright ones are finding their way into generator lighting.

I never seriously used halogen-based battery lighting because the run times were stupidly short (that, and rechargeable battery technology still sucked). I've got some good LED lighting now, including some Dinotte stuff. But, it's AA-powered, not lithium-ion, and I still need to make sure I have a fresh set of batteries on hand.

My point is, I have top-notch battery lights, and I still prefer generator power. If I hadn't already bought some nice Easton wheels for my road bike, it would have a dynohub and some Supernova lights by now.
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Old 10-21-09, 07:14 PM
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Do I have to have matching wheels? Having to purchase new wheels doesn't look cheap. Can I just buy the front or does it need to be the same in the back? I am kind of new to bikes/biking. I'd like something sturdy to be ready for loaded touring, but not break my bank.
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