Not really dreams for me. Justification for my riding style. I know motorists are not all of a sudden going to respect me and give me space no matter how we ride. So I take my space - mostly the spaces cars are not utilizing anyway. If I am already totally disrespected, I have nothing to lose and safety to gain. I would very much like to remain three dimensional for a long, long time.

The other thing that makes it work are the neighborhoods where he rides... narrow streets, and generally slower traffic all vying to squeeze down those narrow streets. That sort of red light running would not work in neighborhoods like mine where 50MPH 6 lane arterial roads cross 45MPH 6 lane arterial roads, just off of broccoli like residential enclaves.

You need a low speed grid to do what Joey does... NOLA provides this... Joey also has to deal with scores of clueless visitors and walking zombie peds... he manages.

cars aren't keeping clear, he is keeping clear of cars.

YO YO jyossarian!!! Next time I'm in NYC I'm bringin' bikes!!! I loved driving in Manhattan, once I knew where I was going, it was like the most awesome video game ever. I'd not be riding NYC like I ride Toronto.

And yet that is the first thing that comes out in any sort of word contest between motorists and cyclists... so somehow that rage IS being internalized... and frankly when I get in discussions with motorists, and they whip that out, the first thing I come back with is "I don't do that." Then I hit them with... "and you always drive under the speed limit?"

We get those crossed swords out of the way quickly.

Sure ... once a discussion occurs, but it's not something that is going to make a motorist run you off the road. Any driver/cyclist who does that has bigger issues than internalizing.
If a car cuts me off, do I flip off/bang on other cars, no. Talking/arguing is not the same as road raging by any stretch of the imagination. I just tell them I safely go through reds to be away from the cars when the light turns green, and it's safer for everyone involved including them.

Yea.. I realize that. I was just making a side observation that someone might be less likely to get close to him since they have no idea what's going to happen next.

That riding style would never work for me as I have a lot of open roads with traffic traveling 35+. The only time I ever pass cars is downtown, but even then they're doing 30+ most of the time except at lights.

I agree with that part and, I think, I understand. I just meant, that the revolution you envisioned won't happen unless economics and reality pushes people to leave the car culture behind.

:eek: :twitchy:

Adam

yeah same with my cycling... all on multi-laned roads with speeds well over 35MPH... I only get residential streets when I am in my part of the "broccoli."

I know I was amazed myself, I guess the weirdness here in Toronto was good training. Manhattan, aggressive but it made sense.

Bubbles! Dude, I have the exact opposite problem when I'm in T.O. I ride like I'm in NYC and I'm the only cyclist running reds, taking lanes, splitting lanes, completely ignore bike lanes, etc. The one thing I don't like about it is the streetcar tracks. They can mess up your day in hot second.

It's more under the radar here as opposed to being full obvious in NYC, 'specially the reds. Toronto = stop look then run it. NYC = slow down look speed up. The lane splitting isn't your average commuter move, more a messenger/mine thingy.

The reason we didn't see any injuries is purely luck. You cannot justify this riding style the same way you can compare Joey's (and other's) riding style. The simple fact is that the "racing" style doesn't benefit anyone on the road, it is more dangerous, anti-social and unnecessary. You shouldn't endanger other people on the road or you are no better than the motorists on their phones.

Yeah, I noticed most commuters stop and wait regardless of whether cross traffic is present or not. Blows my mind every time.

So the riders themselves had nothing to do with it?..... OK I'll take a dozen average commuters out on a cross town rip racing style and see how many I come back with vs. the lads and lasses that do it for a living.
My point being it's a race video, not how they ride when they are working, nor am I trying to justify it. What Joey and I do when riding is nothing like the race video. What I'm hearing is comparison linking the two. When I race I know it's dangerous, and if I'm not on top of things I might not being going home. Oddly that's the same thing I do when I kiss the wife and kids goodbye on any commuting day too, but you'll not see me riding like that video. It's a matter of degrees.

Just to make some people feel good, the whole "Pass on the right where people park" thing is pretty popular here. It's normally done when someone is turning left and there is oncoming traffic. Anyways, one day when I was turning left in my car, someone passed me in the parking zones and then WHAM! Turns out she didn't see the massive parked UPS truck. Her car was totaled, but she walked away with only a bit of whiplash, so it's okay to laugh at her stupidity. Here, going into the parked car "lane" is practically an instinct/reflex when you see someone turning left in front of you.

That's what I was thinking when I read that and missed the link at the end - great!

I'll stop at all red lights since my city has an aggressive stance on red light running, and being that the traffic is usually moving at a pretty good clip anyway, I can use the rest since only a handful of the traffic lights I encounter are red.

Traffic Jammer I think we may have mixed up each other's argument! I was not comparing the way you and Joey ride to the race video, I was just pointing out to people that what you guys do ISN'T the same as racing. I.e. Racing is dangerous and can cause other people injury and inconvenience whereas the normal riding never inconveniences anyone with the right of way and never endangers anyone. Just so people don't go out on the road riding like racers and thinking that it is what you guys have preached about and then complain when they get hurt.

I believe we both agree, but have just misunderstood each other!

There is certainly be more than one way to arrive at your destination without harm or injury. However, Aspergians simply have difficulty accept life without being able to apply order. Laws and rules help apply this order. Therefore, I could never ride that way.

Well, I guess we are. D'oh. My apologies.

My apologies too.

Back to the thread, I agree that although you can do everything in your power to be assertive and safe a motorist can always jeopardise this. By being more aware of what is around you - as shown in the OP - you can see the problems coming and deal with them, although inconvenient you remain safe.

I guess the overarching message is simple "BE CAREFUL", can never predict what motorists will do but can only be prepared for anything!

Who let the new safety nanny in here?


The vast majority of motorists break a traffic law every single time they get in a car. So get off your soap box.

I've only been commuting a year, and about half way through that I realized I could take a slightly longer MUP route and avoid most the traffic I'd been in. But you go through a real learning curve when you start riding in traffic a lot. At first you either act like a pedestrian (riding the sidewalks - yikes!) or you try and follow all the car rules, like a good little bike-riding citizen, even though you probably don't even really know all the rules as they pertain to bikes. Then you find out what a hook is, have a bus almost take your handlebar off buzzing you, realize signals (or expecially the absence of one) really have no meaning to you, and have drivers honking at you for doing exactly what you are supposed to be doing. Then, if you are serious, you find forums like this, learn what taking the lane is all about, and begin to understand you need to be aggressively defensive if you want to survive. It's a process. I'm clearly still on the learning curve - it's hard for me to take the lane for an extended time in a 40mph zone where the cars are doing 50. But I learned pretty quick that the single most dangerous thing I could do was to wait at the curb (where a bike is supposed to be, right?)during a red light at a busy and narrow intersection in that 40moh zone and then peddle merrily across the intersection when the light turned green. Talk about taking your life into your hands, or rather, putting it into someone elses!

Nobody with any experience or brains is going to advocate breaking traffic laws in such a way that you are causing cars to have to avoid you. That defeats the whole purpose. Joey doesn't do that. I don't do that either, whether I'm riding, or driving a car. You can make a right turn (in a car) where a car coming has to slow or change lanes, and if they plowed into you from behind, they would likely be the one ticketed. But you shouldn't do that in your car, right? And you shouldn't jump in front of a car on your bike and force them to avoid you. The safest way to drive or ride is to make sure nobody has to avoid you. Sometimes that safety requires breaking a traffic law. So be it.

Well said AzTallRider - I too quickly learnt that riding in the gutter wasn't a smart thing to do, and I see many people do it and I often wonder if they will give up cycle commuting fairly soon due to not feeling safe.