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Here's my poor man's Riv. '83 Schwinn Traveler turned townie. 4130 frame, leather saddle, upright bars, basket. I'm debating about whether or not it's worth doing a 700c conversion as I'm not sure how much of an improvement it would make clearance-wise. Pretty happy with it as is currently.

That new bike model that Rivendell sells for $1,500 is not a Rivendell, it's a bike they spec'd out of Taiwan; Rivendell sells a bike model called Rivendell, the frameset alone starts at $3,500 and it's made by Mark Nobilette in the USA. The only other models made in the USA bike Rivendell sells is the Atlantis, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and the A Homer Hilsen which are made by Waterford here in the USA. All the prices Rivendell quote is for frame and fork only no components. Rivendell also sells the Soma San Marcus which you can get on line for a bit less money elsewhere, Rivendell sells it for $900, but again the prices are just frame and fork, however I have heard complaints that the frame is a bit noodly.

By your logic, no bike that Rivendell sells is a Rivendell. They don't build any of their frames, they design them and have frame builders make them to their specs. The different locations and prestige of the builders partially explain the price differences. Also, the $1500 number is for a complete, as yet unreleased bike.

You are correct sir. All Grant does is goes to various builders, which have changed over the years, and requests that they build a bike with a name he comes up with and a price he approves, once several designs are are given based on his price then Grant approves for production. The Rivendell model use to be, not sure if it still is, a design that Grant made but he didn't build the bike, the design was sent to whoever he was using at the time for the actual build. Grant doesn't even do the painting, Joe Bell use to do the Rivendell not sure if that's the case anymore or not it could be all done in house at Waterford now.

Grant is a contractor and that's all.

The question that comes to my mind is that if Waterford is building the bike then wouldn't it cost more to get a Rivendell then a similar Waterford and simply not pay for a contractor? Also Rivendell, as I found out, is not very accommodating like Mercian was, and Waterford also is a lot more accommodating in the area of design, braze ons and paint. When I enquired about the Atlantis Rivendell could do no options other than components, with Mercian I had a boat load of options and colors for about the same price as the Atlantis. Even stepping up to the Rivendell still limits your options severely vs Mercian or Waterford or other builders for that matter. Rivendell has an odd warranty too, see: Yves Gomez scan down to where it says Our No Warranty Frame Warrranty. Who does that? NO ONE! You leave you broken bike in the hands of Grant for him to determine and if you read closely he says a broken frame is no more proof of a defective frame as a broken glass is not proof of defective glass. So in other words chances are very good that you will get no satisfaction and will have to pay for the repair yourself...at his cost. I think after all that mumbo jumbo I would just go straight to Waterford and bypass the Rivendell, just my opinion though, just like it's my opinion the Mercian is a better bike than the Rivendell, just as it's someone elses opinion that ABC or XYZ is a better bike than whoever, just opinions. I have a friend that broke a bunch of bikes since the early 80's and he bought a Rivendell and loves it because for one he hasn't been able to break it!

I really just can't stand the smug snobbery that Grant posts. Like the whole dollar store comment...

I don't think they have even shown the $1500 bike, so they aren't selling it yet. Rivendell's custom bikes come with a downtube decal that says "Rivendell" compared to their production models. A custom can be anything but designed by Grant.

The Sam Hillborne comes with a seatpost, bottom bracket, and headset and I believe the Betty Foy did too, Cheviot does too.

The only real complaint I have heard about the Soma is that the paint isn't as well applied as Riv models.

That's not true. The bikes are Riv designed. Work with them on a custom sometime and you will see. You get about 20 emails and numerous phone calls planning the thing out. In fact, if you buy a production bike and have them build it you get about 5 calls and several emails deciding on parts, wheels, set up, and even bar tape color.

He has custom and non custom bikes, the non custom bikes he does not plan he requests certain specs for the price point. My understanding was that once he started sending his models below Rivendell to Waterford he no longer design the bike, I could be wrong, but that's what I heard, and that the Atlantis is essentially a 22 Series Artisan. The Rivendell made by Mark Nobilette is more about custom request by Grant (with the dimensions of the person requesting the bike to be built) and input from Mark, my understanding was, again I could be wrong, Grant specifies which tubes to use where (he mixes and matches tubes depending on the buyers needs) and Mark does the dimension planning and build.

I think this blog sort of hints at what I think is correct: Why buy a Rivendell or Rene Herse bicycle? | Bohemian Bicycles Blogorama

It's no secret that Rivs are not made in Walnut Creek by Riv employees, but are made by actual frame makers other places. Since I have been buying Rivs, the company has never been shy about telling where the frames are made. My Roadeo was made by Waterford, but uses Riv lugs, Riv specified tubing, and is designed by GP. You can't really get a Waterford that is the same as the Roadeo. You cannot get the same lugs on a Waterford, as Riv owns the molds. I can't remember the number, but when I saw Grant at a book signing thing for his "Just Ride" book he talked about Riv having numerous lug molds that they use exclusively. He was very proud of them.

The 22 series Artisan may be a fine bike, but it isn't like an Atlantis unless by "essentially" you mean fine lugged steel touring bike. The lugs and fork crown aren't anything like what you get on an Atlantis and it doesn't look as though you can stick nearly as wide of tires on the Artisan compared to the Atlantis. I don't know if you can get a Waterford in the exact dimensions as an Atlantis (I don't see why not) but my bet is the frameset will be more expensive than the Atlantis and with different lugs.

Anyway, I'm going to hit up Grant with this and just ask him if he designs his own bikes and also get the opinion of those at the Riv owners bunch to see what they have to say about it. I'm fairly knowledgeable about rivs after having owned 4 of them, but there are more people in the know over there.

Having owned several Rivs as you have, how do you feel the quality compares from U.S. To Japan to Taiwan made frames? Do you notice a difference?

I haven't noticed too much difference by the way the bikes are built. The more expensive ones are prettier as they have more intricate lugs and come with a crème head tube and the paint on the USA ones has been of better quality. I haven't noticed the build quality differences though. No gaps in the lugs and all the parts are very well fitted. I usually buy the framesets and build up the bike from various parts and you can see the joints in the bb and such, there is no sloppy metal work and that goes for the Taiwan or American frames.

Now this could be because of the different setups, but the ride of the Roadeo is smoother than the Sam and it doesn't wander on really steep sections of road. The Sam does do that a little bit. Both are very predictable bikes and both are responsive, but if you mash on the pedals the Roadeo scoots more than the Sam. The Sam can take some serious loads though, and wider tires, and uses 650b wheels...so the two bikes are pretty different. I had an Atlantis that I sold in a fit of stupidity....it was a really great 26" wheeled touring bike that was still quite responsive and never felt dead. The build quality was really great too and it had that predictability that I have noticed on all the Rivs I've ridden. I like to call it predictive responsiveness; it is like they are stable and solid but sprightly all at the same time and that doesn't seem to change from model to model.

I am pretty happy with the way my Pake C'mute came out but I am itching for something more modern so I am going to try to sell it locally.

http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/z...pse9c03ae2.jpg
http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/z...psaba251f3.jpg
http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps86b9cc2b.jpg

(whoa, blurry iphone pics!)

52cm Pake C'mute
Tange CX fork
FSA Omega bars with 7/8 chopped off the ends for the shifters
Velocity A23 rims laces to 105 hubs, 32h. With Bonty 32mm Hardcase tires.
Tiagra compact cranks, SLX rear derailleur, Dura Ace 9 speed barcons
Tektro v-drop levers, SRAM v-brakes
Thomson post, WTB pure V

Add brifters and it'll be as modern as it needs to be.
Most of my "modern" bikes have older parts than yours.
Hint: You won't notice that much of a difference riding loaded other than gearing and brake changes.

FYI, I have both a Waterford built and Taiwan built Riv. I have one of the first run Waterford Hunqapillar frames and that convinced me to buy a Hillborne from a Taiwan shipment. Both are Rivendells. It's their lugs, their geo, their choice of tubes and specs. I cannot find any difference in the quality of workmanship or performance between the two. Looking at things from a business owners perspective, I assume Grant uses Waterford because they are set up for small production runs and his orders fit into the queue. The Taiwan factory requires minimum orders and more expensive inventory management. They are what they are and do what they do; make beautiful, comfortable and useful bikes.

Marc

I have thought this through very carefully and there are many reason why brifters will not work on this bike:

1. nine speed- I will have to use cheap brifters (Sora?), risk buying old used 9-speed brifters, or upgrade everything to 10 speed. buying a whole new drivetrain is cost-prohibitive. I thought about getting some Gevenalle shifters but the cables on those stick up right in front of my headlight. they are probably great for cyclocross racing but not commuting at night for that reason.

2. brakes- I hated canti's and after many years of using them and trying to make them work to my liking, I gave up and went to v's. standard v's will not work with any brifter made. I tried Problem Solvers "travel agents" with some Shimano XTR brakes and they were a massive pain to set up and I could never make them work right, so I didn't like them. I tried mini-v's but they were too short to allow clearance for fenders, so mini-v's are out. if someone made a 9-speed brifter that works with v-brakes without annoying adapters, I would be down for that.

I have a customer who is willing to buy my bike today, which will give me enough money to buy a new, modern bike with disc brakes and an 11 speed drivetrain, so why not? The Pake is a great bike but I see no reason to keep riding something when I can get something much nicer.

Don't be afraid of Taiwan made stuff. Some of the finest bike stuff in the world is made there now.

+1) Most familiar brands come off a Boat.

SunRace. Performance bike sells them rebranded as their house brand. Friend used a set for a drop bar conversion and said they were as good as his 10spd 105.

I didn't have any issues using them with Deores on my old Fuji cross. Had a bear of a time getting the pads toed just so,that they would stop squealing,but the Travel Agents went in just fine. My Speed Pro TT came with them,and no issues.

And maybe it's a little wrong of us to prefer stuff made by people who look like us than by people who look a little different.

Sunrace shifters are below my bike snob standards and Travel Agents always seemed like a kludge at best. i sold the Pake today and bought a Raleigh Tamland with the new funds.

however, I just wanted to point out that the Pake C'mute is a terrific bike to start a Rivendellesque bike. That is, until upgraditis sets in and you realize its limitations, which are not that big a deal.

discs are tempting for upgraditis, I'm tempted to outfit my soma doublecross with discs and heck, go with 650b at the same time

[QUOTE=mack_turtle;17232534]I have thought this through very carefully and there are many reason why brifters will not work on this bike:

I thought about getting some Gevenalle shifters but the cables on those stick up right in front of my headlight. they are probably great for cyclocross racing but not commuting at night for that reason.

Hey mack - not sure on your exact set up but we do use a top mount light like this one NiteRiderLumina 750 - NiteRider on one of our beer bikes and it works with the cables from our shifters no problem. Yes it can take a bit of set up to make sure you mount light in best location for it to work but it is not hard.

Cheese!

Goats

That's more than a little unfair. In addition to a common perception that stuff from Taiwan is "cheap"*, there are a number of good reasons some people choose to try and buy products made in their own countries, we don't have to assume it is racism.

* You and I know this isn't necessarily true, but it's nonetheless a common fallacy that lots of people probably never question, and yet make decisions based on this misinformation.

[MENTION=229219]Medic Zero[/MENTION], it isn't universal, but sometimes we get sentimental about European made stuff and eschew Asian made stuff. I'm as guilty as the next guy. And while a lot of cheap crap used to come from Taiwan, the opposite is now true. And the same story happened with Japan several years earlier. When I was a kid, the words "made in Japan" made us giggle. Not only that, lots of cheap crap has been known to come from Europe.

The helicomatic freewheel, for example.