clashb02

Sorry i'm a bit late to this thread, but i've got some thoughts that might clear up some problems like those Buzzbee has. It's a very similar problem to what I sometimes experience, and it's a combination of "too much" cycling and sitting and not enough other exercises.

The position a bike puts you into never fully stretches your hip flexors and two other muscles (the ones that cause me the most problems), the rectus femoris and the sartorius. Both of these muscles are involved in knee extension, but since they cross the hip, during cycling, they are never fully lengthened (since you're bent forward). If you spend enough time sitting (on a bike, chair, car, etc.), they will shorten. When you then perform an exercise the requires them to be maximally lengthened, like during the eccentric contractions involved with downhill walking/running, they end up getting overstretched. This ultimately leads to minor damage and, subsequently, sometimes debilitating cramping. The reason it normally doesn't happen when going uphill is because you're leaning forward a bit and the leg doesn't quite stretch those muscles out all the way. For Buzzbee anyway, I highly doubt that it's anything nerve related or referred pain, because generally that would affect everything downstream of that nerve (toes, foot, calf, etc). Sometimes general physicians aren't used to problems experienced by active people and forget Occam's Razor.

Like an earlier commenter, I've realized that this is more likely to happen to me when i'm traveling. I don't think its so much that i'm not getting my normal workouts, but I theorize that it's because I spend an extended period of time sitting in a car or airplane seat, which further shortens those muscles and makes them more susceptible to being overstretched when I do something more strenuous.

The best way to prevent this from happening, without cutting back on cycling or sitting, is to keep the muscles used to acting through their full range of motion. Stretching obviously will help. Quad stretches, lunge stretch, etc. Also doing things like running and resistance training exercises that work them will help. Good luck everyone!

Gazbeast

I declare this thread open again!

This is the exact same thing that I have been suffering with since staring back cycling after a 15 year lay off. I have been extremely confused how only a downhill, or a downstairs walk can cause my quads to lock up and give me so much pain, and as stated in a previous answer, rubbing the affected area only makes it worse. I commute 35 miles a week on the bike with a 40-50 miler chucked in on a sunday at club run pace (slowish). No great efforts on the bike and very little aching afterwards but these downhill episodes have really got to me, causing me to struggle to walk at all for at least 10 mins after an attack and to be in pain for hours after. Having drawn a blank previously I am happy to find that others have experienced the same and it's not just my mind playing silly games with my legs so I can conclude there is a problem and I am not crazy! I will take the above advise regarding streching (something i never do!) and other types of training and hopefully get out more on the bike.

Thanks

chefisaac

gaz: how long have you been commuting? Could be your quads are tearing and building up. Also, what I used to do is rub them down starting from the top of my knee toward my quads. Could be acid build up. The rubbing is painful and all you are doing is trying to move out the lactic acid.

I also find that if I ride a long distance on the weekend, the following day I take a walk. Works for me.

Gazbeast

Hi Chief

Only been commuting since January (When the problem allows) and it's only a 7 mile round trip. any sort of rubbing during an episode only makes it worse, all I can do is sit down, try to relax and wait for it to subside.

rubic

The manner in which we condition our muscles are training specific. In cycling, we push down on the peddles which shortens the quads as it contracts known as concentric contraction. Running down hill lengthens the quads as they contract known as eccentric contraction. Since cycling does not condition the quads in an eccentric manner, they get overworked while running downhill with resultant pain from the muscles' micro tear injuries.

buzzbee

I'm still working on the theory that cross training will help, the question is: how much do you need. I started adding 1 mile of running during my morning bike commute, giving me 30 miles cycling and 1 mile running per day. I also started to stand on the pedals 25% of the time. After about a month, it has not really helped so far with the downhill leg pain, but I will try a few more months.
Some will say that's not enough cross training, but it would be impossible for my schedule to spend 2 hours of cycling and 1 hour of running per day.
BTW, I get the leg pain hiking down hill (say Sunday) after a day of rest, I do not get the pain hiking without a day of rest (say Saturday). Why is that?

For me, after >3 years of daily stretches, the pain has got a bit better.
My work around when it happens is to stop and stretch the quads and hamstrings for 1-2 minutes, walk on, and repeat as needed.... There is still pain, but it seems to reach a limit that I can take.
So, in the end, is there one answer? Probably not.

Gazbeast

Yup, same as me, after a day or two off the bike, I get an attack while randomly walking downhill or steps. Maybe the answer is to not rest at all? An hour on the turbo when it's absolutely chucking it down outside when the car is the only option to commute? I will test this theory, watch this space........

AndyInSydney

Hi All,

Just signed up as I've been following this thread since the end of last year with the hope of answers but didn't really have anything to add. Now that work has slowed down I thought I'd add that I'm suffering from identical symptoms but still haven't made any progress on solving the problem.

It's the same thing for me, I'm turning 40 this year and I started riding for the first time since I was a lad at the end of last year. I cycle 16kms to work which is a little hilly, spend the day at a desk job and then home in the evening. I usually try and ride twice a week and if I keep that up then all is well. The problem comes along if I stop riding then a few days later I get the most horrendous cramps in my quads when I walk downhill. The symptoms have only got worse over the months e.g. my first ever ride was just 8kms and then a day or so later I got cramps which lasted a short while, my last bout after a few weeks of regular cycling (and a forced break when I was ill) and five days later I had terrible cramps only this time they kept come back for days afterwards (which makes me nervous about the idea of just not stopping cycling)

So far I've tried the following:
1. Magnesium tablets (recommended by a friend who thought it was DOMS and a pharmacist as the answer to all cramps)
2. Arnica tablets because it was worth a shot at a natural remedy
3. Weeks of physio to stretch out the quad muscles (ended with where you kneel with your back against the wall, then put one knee against the wall on something pdded with your foot and lower leg going up the wall, and then move the other foot out from the wall for balance with your shin vertical and thigh parallel to the ground. Then you try to get your back as close to the wall as possible and enjoy the pain)

and I'm about to look into a specialist recommended by the physio.

I'm generally fit with two young boys keeping me active, try and surf three morning a week when I'm not riding, ride a motorbike to work those days which is pretty involving so I'm stumped by this.

I've also bought some cleats to try and make the riding more efficient and will try getting out the saddle a little more plus the pharmacist recommende a sports drink while riding (don't think that'll help but I'll try anything at this stage). I've also bought some weights now that winter's approaching here and figured when it's too cold to surf then I can work on my lunges and squats etc.

I think I'm going to try and invoke the cramps by riding and breaking for the week to see if I'm making any progress. Will let you know if anything makes any difference.

All the best,

Andy

Gazbeast

Hi Andy

It is fustrating isn't it, I have just turned 40 and it is a nuisance that I just don't need. I haven't had more than one day off the bike for the last 3 weeks now and all is good, there are a few 80km rides chucked in on the weekend along with the 16km round trip commute every weekday. Keep us informed of any progress.

Gaz

AndyInSydney

OK, I've waited 9 days and, for the first time since November, I've managed to do my ride and not suffer debilitating quad cramps 5 days later when I walk downhill thanks largely to all of the posts in this thread.

I'd been off the bike for a fortnight due to an operation (nothing serious) and got back to cycling determined to get this fixed and so I've tried to take on board all of the advice given to me by the physio, pharmacist and, of course, posted above.

For me I think the answer has been principally performing jumping squats a few times a day with some hamstring stretches but here's what I did last Tuesday:

1. Quad stretch and squats before riding
2. Magnesium tablet as suggested by the pharmacist who belieives that all cramps are caused by magnesium deficiency (not convinced as I'd been taking these previously)
3. Filled my water bottle with a sports drink rather than just water (also recommended by the pharmacist who said it's dehydration if not magnesium and I found a powdered option with added magnesium so thought that would a good way to go)
4. Put on my new SPD shoes as I've fitted cleats to the bike to make it more efficient and allow pulling as well as pushing (had previously used toe clips so not sure how significant this is)
5. Stopped a couple of times along the way for a couple of minutes breather (wasn't intending to, but we had a torrential downpour in Sydney and it was like being waterboarded at times and visibility was awful)
6. Tried to spend a bit of time out of the saddle as suggested above
7. Repeated the stretching at work including hamstring stretches
8. Rode home at the end of the day in the same way and got caught in another downpour.

The reason I think that it's the squats that makes the difference is because its the only thing that I've done substantially differently and it fits above that the muscles causing the issues are those with we use to deccelerate when walking downhill. I've focussed not on the pushing back up part of the squat, in fact I took that gently, but on the going down part of the squat and I've enhanced the effect by using the steps out back, firstly jumping slightly off the bottom step for 8-10 squats and then another 8-10 off the second step. I tried to do it 2 or 3 times per day.

I can definitely feel my quads are a bit still. Yesterday was a public holiday here and I spent the afternoon playing touch footy and soccer, including a parents versus kids game where I wasn't holding back and so was a little achy afterwards but certainly not the horrible cramps I'm used to and again I did a few squats to warm down afterwards.

Anyhow, thought I should report back on my success and hopefully it's not some fluke or caused by the rain - as that wasn't much fun!

Will try riding again next week and then take a break to see if the cramps come back.

All the best and thanks again to everyone for contributing to this thread as I don't think I'd have fixed this without you.

Andy

mtnbud

Great to hear you're seeing some results Andy! I've been experiencing quad cramps for close to twenty years! The worst episodes have always been after an extreme amount of cycling- as an example: after a 10 day 1100 mile bicycle tour, walking down a length of stairs was not going to happen without a cramping episode.

Typically, I don't experience quad cramps unless I try to run. I used to be able to run 3,5,8 miles or whatever, with no issues other than what any fit person might experience. After I first started getting these cramping episodes, it progressed to the point where I cannot run any distance over a half a mile without my quads cramping up. I used to try to get to the point where I could run for exercise and enjoyment. After 20 years of trying and cramping, I've gotten to the point where I don't even attempt to run. All the doctors I visited over the years recommended the same things your doctors did. After a while with no success they all have just basically given up on trying to help me. Certain types of deep tissue massage has helped some, but nothing has allowed me to use running as another form of exercise.

Jumping squats is something I haven't tried. I'm going to give the that shot for a few months and see if that helps.

Do you do much running? Are you able to run without cramping?

hiyer1

if it is sharp and acute it could be a nerve issue...affects a lot of older cyclists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sciatica

pennstater

+1
Also applies to downhill skiing. My legs were absolutely dead from a hard days skiing this winter. Didn't make sense that this should happen when I had been cycling about 100 miles a week. Always thought cycling was good training for downhill skiing. Turns out recent research has proven this to be a myth. After skiing I had high levels of pain and cramping easing down to a sitting or squat position. But, absolutely no pain extending from the squat to the standing position.

Downhill walking or weight training are recommended. When doing leg extensions lower the weights SLOWLY. This is supposed to be an eccentric muscle contraction. Cycling is a concentric muscle contraction - unless you are riding a fixed gear and trying to slow it down.

AndyInSydney

I'm clearly not nearly as fit as you and my running extends to refereeing my sons' soccer matches on weekends. My quads had been cramping up in the past afterwards but I can report that this weekend they were fine with just the normal aches of getting old rather than severe cramping.

I'm not 100% certain that the squats is what's doing it - like I said it may be some bizarre happenstance that it was raining cats and dogs when I last rode, but it does make sense and when I've felt my quads tightening up I've done some squats (just a little jump into the air and then focus on controlling the decelleration) and not had to think about it again for a while. I'm still pretty terrified of them cramping again so maybe I'm being oversensitive and the squat isn't necessary but I'm not taking any chances.

I'm due to ride in again tomorrow so will see how I go.

AndyInSydney

Thanks for the suggestion - sounds like it's a possibility as I qualify as an "older cyclist" but my wife suffers from sciatica too and I'm not getting symptoms like hers in the way it's presenting - I'll add it to the list next time I see the physio.

mtnbud

Totally understand the terrified part. If your cramps are like mine, I sympathize. Definitely not fun! Keep us informed.

This thread may have just motivated me to try experimenting to see if I can work my way back into running for fitness again!

buzzbee

There could be different types of muscle issues described above.
Cramp: to me this is a muscle contracting and staying that way with the associated pain, like a "charlie horse"
Pain: the muscle hurts but is not contracted like with a cramp.

In my case, it happens walking/running down hill.
It is not a muscle contraction, just pain that comes on like a cramp, then hurts a lot in a certain area. Later on, more quad muscle areas start to do the same thing, so it kind of moves around. Even later, it all feels sore, the pain is not as acute. If I stop and stand stright up, then there is reduced pain, but if I stand on one leg, and bend my other knee, it hurts as I bend it. So, the muscle tissue seems stressed by the movement of the quad muscles as I bend the knee. If I keep the knee bent, then the quad pain subsides. An hour after the hike, and I only feel a slight soreness.
In my case, it sounds like it might be acute muscle soreness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_muscle_soreness

From other posts, it could also be age related. I have 20 years on some other folks here.

So far, standing in the saddle, and running 5 miles per week have not helped me.
Last week, I rode 215 miles, ran 5 miles, then took a break Saturday and hiked on Sunday.
I had a lot of leg pain in the downhill sections of that hike.
If I had hiked on Saturday instead, I would have not had any leg pain for sure.
I still do not get why a day off causes or trigger this.

Maybe I'll try the jumping squats next....

Gazbeast

I have had the odd attack since my last visit here but nothing like the previous ones. I have had an enforced lay off for a week (Monsoon season in Wales?), but I'm gonna start cycling again tomorrow. Let the fun begin .............

I'm also gonna try the magnesium and energy drink, my wife keeps on that i don't drink enough water to keep me hydrated and apparently Whisky don't count as water ............

AndyInSydney

Hey Buzzbee,

Firstly thanks so much for starting this thread - it's the only place in the world I've found to describe my symptoms and even if it's not the same thing this forum has inspired me to try and fix my problem.

I know I've called it a cramp, but I've re-read your posts and I think mine is very similar to what you've described. I cycle 32kms twice a week and then 3-5 days later if I walk downhill, without having cycled in the interim, I get an excrutiating pain in my quads - it can come on in various areas and different legs and it can get to the point where I can't walk or bend or straighten my leg without it hurting like hell. Then it subsides and leaves me with just enough soreness to remind me not to ever walk downhill again

Anyhow, having had some enforced time off and now getting back to it slowly I can report that me second ride, last Tuesday, has not resulted in any pain.

I'm reducing the things I'm doing to try and diagnose if it's the jumping squats that are helping so I've dropped the stretching. I've kept with the sports drink and magnesium as I might as well use them up and standing out of the saddle going up the steepest parts of the hills just to get the momentum going (as I've got the cleats so I'm not worried about my foot slipping off the pedal any more)

Am going to ride again tomorrow and see how I go.

buzzbee

This is a good forum because of all the folks that might have similar questions and experiences.
In this case, perhaps only a tiny minority of people share this experience, most other view the thread as noise.

Although I'm sorry that others share this experience, I'm also glad I'm not alone.
2008 and 2009 were the worst years for me for this pain, and after seeing many doctors and therapists, in 2010, I figured that it might have to do with the extra cycling, as I started commuting 150 miles a week year round in 2007.
In fact, looking back, I had similar, but very minor and temporary, leg pain going back more than 10 years before full time commuting on the first downhill hikes of the season

It could have to do with age, lack of cross training, and/or other factors.
Soon, I start another long distance walk (140 miles, 18,000' up and down), so that will give me another data point.

sm1960

what they said....and hydrate. Dehydration can cause a lot of muscle pain when straining muscles.

Gazbeast

I am drinking much more water and Taking 150mg Magnesium a day, seems to be working....... What dosage does your doc suggest AndyInSydney?

AndyInSydney

Hi @Gazbeast, the pharmacy gave me 300mg tablets and told me I could take two if the "cramp" was really bad but otherwise it's one tablet a day.

I tried them while I was suffering earlier this year but it didn't make any difference, however, since I've got back I've noticed:

1. The first week I rode I took a table on the morning I rode and felt OK
2. On the second week of riding I didn't take a tablet and was notably tighter in my quads

I'm sceptical as to if it was the magnesium or not since there's so many other factors but from now on I'm going to take it on the morning that I ride rather than later.

Once I finish the jar I'll probably give them a miss and see how I go.

I'm still backing my jumping squats as doing the most to relieve my symptoms, however, it could easily be that I had an enforced couple of weeks break and this time I'm started up riding gradually having built some core muscles, whereas last year I started from nothing for the past twenty years to suddenly doing 16km commutes.

techikson

Wow - just came across this thread. I'm a biker, typically about 75-100 miles per week. The symptoms that have been described are precisely what I have. A cramp-like feeling in the quads from walking downstairs or downhill, and usually worse when I travel. it's not a true cramp, as the pain is not a sudden contraction. Rather, it builds slowly and feels like a cramp, which can be relieved to some extent by stretching the quad and rest. I've yet to find a cure, but will definitely work on the stretching and other methods described here. Thanks.

Gazbeast

Hi Tech

Yup, not a true cramp but comes on slowly till it's an unbearable pain. I have found I can run around okay for a good hour with the kids but a downhill walk or flight of steps and I'm in bits********** All the above remedies do help but it never completely goes away.....