extranormal

I think it's strange that no one is offering a hydraulic brake lever for drop bars. Plenty of manufacturers are capable of offering ISO compatible frames and forks, and there are hub options as well. Lots of people run single speed road and 'cross bikes, or other setups that could use disks. All we need is a brake lever designed for drop bars. Avid? Magura? Hayes? Formula? Hope? Someone needs to step up!

Arguments against are baseless.
• The most common argument I hear is "It isn't necessary, my cantis stop fine". Well, that's exactly what everyone said about disk brakes on mountain bikes, until they tried some. The reality is that hydraulic disks stop much better.

• People also say, "It's banned by the UCI." I say, are you racing in UCI 'cross races? I didn't think so.

• The only other argument people can come up with is the weight. This has to be considered in light of my first point, that hydraulics offer a major performance advantage. Current cross country brakes are very light. There would still be a weight penalty, but it would come with a large gain in performance. Most people interested in this would be commuters and working cyclists, not racers looking to shave grams at any cost.

The market for hydraulic disk brakes on road style bikes will be urban cyclists. Commuters, messengers, and others that need to ride in traffic would go for it. Riding in traffic requires serious stopping power! We ride in rain and snow, and we have to be able to stop on a dime every time a vehicle does something oblivious. Grabbing the brakes from on top of the hoods does not offer the rider very much leverage, and can even cause pain when done repeatedly.

I've heard rumors about a radical new road disk standard with tiny disks. That might be cool, but for now mountain bike standards are already established, and work incredibly well. All we need is a lever, please someone give us a buttery smooth hydraulic road lever!!

tatfiend 

Agreed 100%. Avid BB7s offer versions compatible with road levers on drop bars or versions that can be used with the V brake compatible drop bar levers offered by Dia Compe and others. They are still mechanical discs though. I note that the BB7 disc brake seems to be practically universally used by the bike manifacturers who do offer drop bar disc braked bikes, probably for just that reason.

JonathanGennick 

+1. The only argument that matters is that there are people willing to pay for drop-bar-friendly hydro levers.

I'm actually converting my Fargo to drops this afternoon. Hydros would be nice, but am having to stick w/BB7s just because of the lever issue.

filtersweep

It is way too much brake for such a small contact patch.... at least on a road bike.

JonathanGennick 

Yeah, but that's beside the point. People would pay. There's a market. Brake manufacturers are leaving money on the table by not selling into that market.

Maybe the market's just not large enough.

HardyWeinberg

That's an interesting approach. How do you measure amount of braking per contact patch? All brakes will lock up a wheel spinning in mid-air. It seems like GVW must enter into a calculation of how much braking you get per lever-pull when you're actually moving.

Arcanum

Drop bars don't necessarily imply skinny road bike tires these days.

extranormal

Yes, currently Avid BB7s are available for road levers, and Tektro makes a mechanical disk brake called the Lyra specifically for cyclocross (has lousy reviews and looks chintzy in pictures). Mechanical disk brake systems have more friction, and therefore less power and modulation.

The argument about the contact area of the tire is moot. Think instead of the amount of force your hand has to put into the lever in order to stop. Reduce that power requirement and the system will be easier and more effective to use.

electrik

Sorry, but you have forgotten the issue of downward force on said contact patch.

How can a road-bike corner so hard with such small contact patches? - It is not about the size but how you use it.

electrik

After doing a rain ride I can tell everybody (again) that disc brakes stop you better than wet rim brakes.
The UCI regs only apply to PRO level racers also.
For sure urban riders are safer with disc brakes in the wet.

CACycling

I would think hydraulics on drop bars would need to be coupled with STI shifting to be viable in the market. That would probably be a complex system and therefore more expensive to manufacture than just a drop bar hydraulic brake lever. I doubt demand would be there at the price point it would take to roll out that system unless they were used by top end racers. If hydraulics became sanctioned in cyclocross, that would open up the high end market. After a short time, it would start trickling down through the upper-level grupos. That is the way new innovations tend to find their way to market.

electrik

How would an in-line brake or cross lever work... those are very handy in urban riding.

slcbob

I love my BB7s on my cyclocross commuter. Front only.

I love my Juicy 7s more on my MTB. But, honestly, I don't think I'd spend up for much of a premium for them on the road bike even if they were available. I really think the market niche is far too small to justify the investment in R&D and distribution.

I would, however, love the option.

Schwinnsta

Contact patch area of the tire does not matter. All that matters is the coefficient or friction of the tire and the weight or force on the patch, and the stopping power of the brakes.

The bike I ride in the rain has a drum front and coaster rear with fenders. It is an old cruiser and not ideal for most, but a good rain bike.

DX-MAN

Where did you get that from? There isn't an area of performance ANYWHERE that discs don't absolutely SPANK rim brakes. Discs weigh a little more, but unless you're racing, that's a non-issue. There's no 'more friction' involved -- unless your experience is with poorly set-up discs -- the power is off the charts in comparison, and modulation is equal.

Please -- not trying to flame you or anything -- but know what you're talking about before you post something silly like that.

nahh

Where i see the biggest market for this is touring and expedition touring.

electrik

Yup, already discussed over here in the touring forum.

Arcanum

I think he's arguing mechanical discs vs. hydraulic, not mechanical discs vs. rim.

I'm not so sure about that, due to the reputed relative difficulty of field repairs. I expect all-weather commuters and cargo bicycle riders would be all over them.

PaulRivers

Yeah, all of my bikes with rim brakes take about *twice* the distance to stop when it gets wet outside as they do when it's dry, even my 7800 Dura-Ace brakes and pads. But with my bike with disc brakes, the difference is either so small or non-existent that I can't tell the difference between wet and dry stopping distance.

At the moment, there's no doubt that disc brakes are better than rim brakes in wet weather for every bike I currently own (4).

grolby

The arguments are not baseless just because you disagree with them (except for the UCI argument, which I can't say I've heard made about disc brakes on commuting bikes).

Cantis do indeed stop fine, when properly adjusted. That happens to be the trick. V-brakes are more powerful and easier to adjust, so they are very reliable indeed. And calipers are easiest of all. I'm a big fan of modern dual-pivot caliper brakes. Yes, hydraulic discs have more stopping power. So? I find the idea that commuters require the absolute maximum possible stopping power to be ridiculous; what commuters require is common sense and the ability to ride defensively to avoid panic stops. I can't even remember the last time it was necessary to slam on the brakes, because I'm starting to slow the instant I see something questionable going on. Granted, the streets of New York are a lot crazier than the streets of Nashville, but I've ridden in NYC and the same principles apply.

As for the rest, who the hell does urban commuting on drop bars? Yes, that's hyperbole, but the fact remains that you're talking about a very small market, here. Think about the subsets of the market you're talking about:

1. Commuters, who
2. Ride drop bar bicycles in the city, and
3. Want disc brakes on their bicycles, and
4. Don't think mechanical discs are good enough, and
5. Are willing to pay the premium on hydraulics.

Give me a break. That's you and maybe ten other people in the entire United States. The number of urban cyclists riding drop bars is already miniscule compared to the people on upright bars. And that's just counting the people are relatively enthusiastic about bicycles and not just trying to get to work. And I haven't even gone into the design challenge of creating a hydraulic road lever (hint: the basic geometry involved doesn't lend itself well to the task).

Honestly, if your priorities are stopping power uber alles, you're riding the wrong bike, period. There's a reason that most commuting bikes have upright bars. It's because upright bars are much more sensible for urban riding. And upright bars can fit existing hydraulic brake levers. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.

grolby

By the way, I commute in all weather with cantilever brakes (which stop GREAT in the rain with upright brake levers), but I would be remiss if I did not point out that commuters seeking all-weather stopping power have long had various non-disc options available to them...

PaulRivers

50% of the people I know who bike commute do so on drop bars. I just have to go outside work in the morning, and the back rack has 50% drop bars, 50% upright.

M_S

Grolby has a decent point, but more to the issue, it's not as easy as Avid making a road BB7 or Tektro making a long pull drop bar lever. it's a much more fundamental redesign of the whole system, and of course it has to be done as a system, or at least with a lever specific to one. I'm sure we'll see one eventually, but I can't see it being common for a long time.

BB7s are perfectly adequate hauling my mountain bike down 2000 ft + descents, and while they require relatively frequent adjustment, adjusting them is really easy as well. Not to mention commuting to me also means errands, which means locking up your bike. BB7s are maybe 60 bucks per end, good hydros 100 dollars and up. Cantis or calipers can work well in the 20 dollar range.

whitecat

I'm finding the idea that someone else knows how I ride and what I ride, and what I need from brakes to be ridiculous; and even more so, the notion that he is entitled to instruct me how to ride.

FYI, V-brakes do not stop fine, are not powerful enough for my weight and riding style, and as far as I'm concerned, discs are the way to go. I do require absolute maximum available brake power on any bike I ride. I can remember at least few occasions every day that due to boneheaded, blind, deaf, stupid and r e t a r d e d drivers, that I need to slam on the brakes, sometimes even when riding no faster then 10 mph. Stupid drivers you cant predict, no matter how much you try. And some of them are indeed far far beyond stupid. Stronger brakes can save me from an impact, and I need them.

Top notch XTR v-brakes with quality pads dialed up to the max power and sensitivity were BARELY able to stop me in time in some situations where I was cut off by a stupid driver. I talk about that part of the second that the v-brakes need to grip and start slowing down, in which I go over at least another few feet, and those feet can be the difference between crash or no crash. Discs almost dont have that brief period of time before they bite up to their full power, it is barely noticeable, maybe 1/10th of a second at most. So, as the result discs stop MUCH more consinstently, MUCH more predictably, and MUCH MUCH faster on the initial brake bite.

BTW I ride a hybrid with disc brakes, and it's mechanical discs, maybe I'll switch them to hydraulics in the future, but even mechanical discs are WAY better then top of the line v-breaks. I wont say that for some lighter riders, riding defensively and never in adverse conditions, v-brakes can't be enough - they can. But not so for me, not for my weight, not for my power output, not for my riding style, not for my riding enviroment. I need maximum braking I can get, I need reliable braking dry, rain, snow, ice, sleet, whatever, and that is only discs.

Yan 

I'm a touring cyclist and I would never use disk brakes on my touring bike. They're difficult to service on the road, and parts are not available in many countries.

I ride to work everyday and the last time I slammed on my brakes was in 2007, and it was my fault. I am not a slow rider. If you're slamming on your brakes a few times a day, you're doing something wrong.