Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Commuting
Reload this Page >

To IGH or not, that is the question

Notices
Commuting Bicycle commuting is easier than you think, before you know it, you'll be hooked. Learn the tips, hints, equipment, safety requirements for safely riding your bike to work.

To IGH or not, that is the question

Old 04-11-10, 03:34 PM
  #26  
daven1986
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I considered an IGH however went for a derailleur when I considered the following points:

- more gears - I change gear a lot to keep my cadence comfortable and I hate being in a gear too high or too low
- I rarely do maintenance on my derailleurs and they seem to work ok , any maintenance is pretty quick and easy (usually just a tension adjustment - 10 mins tops)
- derailleurs are lighter, cheaper, and provide a better and more customisable range of gears
- I like drop bars and STI style shifters (although I know that there are some out there now for the alfine IGHs)

I think for a long journey like yours, I'd be looking at a comfortable road bike - more of a sportive geometry. This will mean you are a little more upright so you can see better, but also will allow you a comfortable journey with drops for headwinds.

Daven
daven1986 is offline  
Old 04-11-10, 03:58 PM
  #27  
vik 
cyclopath
 
vik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 5,264

Bikes: Surly Krampus, Surly Straggler, Pivot Mach 6, Bike Friday Tikit, Bike Friday Tandem, Santa Cruz Nomad

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by damnable
My commute will be 33Km each way and I've ridden the route but unloaded. It's a combination of roads and bikeways. I plan on shortening it at first.
For several years my commute was 50km round trip [with train] or 100km round trip without train. I found 50kms a nice distance to ride each day. Enough to get a workout and feel satisfied without killing me. I rode the 100km route each day when I was in the mood for a real workout and the weather was nice.

33kms isn't a problem with a well setup bike and a bit of a phased approach to building up the mileage.

The 2hrs on my bike each day was the best part of my day!

Originally Posted by mtalinm
Have you noticed majordifferences between Nexus and Alfine?
No - the internals are the same.
__________________
safe riding - Vik
VikApproved
vik is offline  
Old 04-11-10, 07:45 PM
  #28  
Banzai
Jet Jockey
 
Banzai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 4,941

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9, Ritchey Breakaway Cross, Nashbar X-frame bike, Bike Friday Haul-a-Day, Surly Pugsley.

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 382 Post(s)
Liked 29 Times in 25 Posts
Changing a tire once on an internal gear hub bike shook me off that decision.

Derailers are so much simpler, and the maintenance is stupid easy.
__________________
Good night...and good luck
Banzai is offline  
Old 04-11-10, 08:49 PM
  #29  
pharasz
Member from- uh... France
 
pharasz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Posts: 329

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Bianchi Volpe

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
When my commute changed from 10K to 30K, I got rid of my flat bar "commuter bike" and went to a touring bike, based on advice I got here. I haven't regretted it.
pharasz is offline  
Old 04-11-10, 09:11 PM
  #30  
Mr IGH
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by vik
...No - the (nexus/Alfine) internals are the same.
Only the 8C31, 8R35 and 8R36 share the Alfine internals. The other, such as 8R20 and 8R25 are older designs and don't have the life of an Alfine.
Mr IGH is offline  
Old 04-11-10, 09:42 PM
  #31  
electrik
Single-serving poster
 
electrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
33km is getting up there... as long as it isn't hilly or very windy an IGH should offer you enough range once you get the crank tooth size dialed. I wouldn't quite recommend belt-drive though, it is expensive to experiment with the sprocket sizes if you find the OEM isn't right.

If you aren't in stop-go traffic for a lot of it... maybe a RD is better.
electrik is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 05:04 AM
  #32  
daredevil
cyclepath
 
daredevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: "The Last Best Place"
Posts: 3,550

Bikes: 2005 Trek Pilot 5.0, 2001 Specialized Sirrus Pro, Kona Lava Dome, Raleigh hardtail converted to commuter, 87 Takara steel road bike, 2008 Trek Soho

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by electrik
it is expensive to experiment with the sprocket sizes if you find the OEM isn't right.

If you aren't in stop-go traffic for a lot of it... maybe a RD is better.
My thoughts exactly. With a regular chain I had plenty of easy options on changing gearing.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
daredevil is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 09:37 AM
  #33  
PaulRivers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by daredevil
My thoughts exactly. With a regular chain I had plenty of easy options on changing gearing.
I personally never found the need to change the gearing on my IGH. I've biked in the winter, in the summer, with nothing on the bike, and with the bike loaded up with gear for overnight camping 40 miles away. I always found the bottom gear was low enough, the top gear was high enough, and I generally stayed in gear 4 or 5 on the flat.

If you're worried about gearing, a regular derailler is a far more flexible choice. If you don't want to do maintenance, an igh with a belt completely eliminates the source of regular maintenance by getting rid of the chain.

(To be fair, I don't own a bike with a belt so there may be drawbacks I'm unaware of, I just own an IGH with a chain which was the only thing available at the time I needed a winter bike.)
PaulRivers is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 09:44 AM
  #34  
vik 
cyclopath
 
vik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 5,264

Bikes: Surly Krampus, Surly Straggler, Pivot Mach 6, Bike Friday Tikit, Bike Friday Tandem, Santa Cruz Nomad

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
If you're worried about gearing, a regular derailler is a far more flexible choice. If you don't want to do maintenance, an igh with a belt completely eliminates the source of regular maintenance by getting rid of the chain.
IGH with chain is nearly maintenance free. You barely have to oil/clean the chain....I rarely do....just ride it until the cog and ring are thrashed and then replace all 3. Without a derailleur the chain will keep going 'round happily for a very long time without much attention...especially if your cog and ring have even numbered teeth as Sheldon points out:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html

With a Rohloff just flip the cog and ring and add new chain for a whole new lease on life with minimal cost - I run $16 SRAM 8 speed chains on my Rohloffs.
__________________
safe riding - Vik
VikApproved
vik is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 10:16 AM
  #35  
PaulRivers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by vik
IGH with chain is nearly maintenance free. You barely have to oil/clean the chain....I rarely do....just ride it until the cog and ring are thrashed and then replace all 3. Without a derailleur the chain will keep going 'round happily for a very long time without much attention...especially if your cog and ring have even numbered teeth as Sheldon points out:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html

With a Rohloff just flip the cog and ring and add new chain for a whole new lease on life with minimal cost - I run $16 SRAM 8 speed chains on my Rohloffs.
I have not experienced any difference in this regard between a decent derailler (like Tiagra) and my IGH bike. Both required adjustment after 100-300 miles for optimal shifting. Neither really "requires" constant cleaning of the chain, they seem to work fine without it, and I can just run them until the chain or cogs wear out, though I have no doubt there's a certain number of people who feel the chain should be cleaned regularly - I try to do it once a year, but in the past I've gone years without cleaning a chain on a derailler setup. A rear cassette seems to be slightly more expensive than a rear single ring. As I mentioned - there's not much of a difference for regular road riding.
PaulRivers is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 10:56 AM
  #36  
daredevil
cyclepath
 
daredevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: "The Last Best Place"
Posts: 3,550

Bikes: 2005 Trek Pilot 5.0, 2001 Specialized Sirrus Pro, Kona Lava Dome, Raleigh hardtail converted to commuter, 87 Takara steel road bike, 2008 Trek Soho

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Since all of you are here, sorry to change topic to a degree but what about clutch slip with IGH. Is that common? I can be hammering a hill, stop briefly and when I start to pedal again, there is a bit of a slip before it engages fully again. Normal or faulty hub?

I might add it happens in some gears, not all.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
daredevil is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 11:03 AM
  #37  
PaulRivers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by daredevil
Since all of you are here, sorry to change topic to a degree but what about clutch slip with IGH. Is that common? I can be hammering a hill, stop briefly and when I start to pedal again, there is a bit of a slip before it engages fully again. Normal or faulty hub?

I might add it happens in some gears, not all.
I would try to answer your question, but I honestly just don't know. And since my IGH is winter-only, I probably wouldn't be able to answer your question until next year.

My only suggestion would be to see if you could find another bike (do any local bike shops carry them?) and try it out yourself on it.
PaulRivers is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 11:38 AM
  #38  
thdave
Senior Member
 
thdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by daredevil
Since all of you are here, sorry to change topic to a degree but what about clutch slip with IGH. Is that common? I can be hammering a hill, stop briefly and when I start to pedal again, there is a bit of a slip before it engages fully again. Normal or faulty hub?

I might add it happens in some gears, not all.
Sounds like you need a cable adjustment. Take it to a pro to make sure it's adjusted properly. Mine never slips when adjusted right.
thdave is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 11:42 AM
  #39  
daredevil
cyclepath
 
daredevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: "The Last Best Place"
Posts: 3,550

Bikes: 2005 Trek Pilot 5.0, 2001 Specialized Sirrus Pro, Kona Lava Dome, Raleigh hardtail converted to commuter, 87 Takara steel road bike, 2008 Trek Soho

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by thdave
Sounds like you need a cable adjustment. Take it to a pro to make sure it's adjusted properly. Mine never slips when adjusted right.
The cable is adjusted just as it's supposed to be and it shifts perfectly. I stand on nearly all hills and I have a lot of 6-7% stuff. I think I need someone who hammers hills with the IGH to answer. Torque the hell out of a stroke, pause and try to stroke hard again and nothing is there immediately.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Last edited by daredevil; 04-12-10 at 11:50 AM.
daredevil is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 11:46 AM
  #40  
macdonwald
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Banzai
Changing a tire once on an internal gear hub bike shook me off that decision.
+1. If you're not mechanically inclined (like me), this is a major drawback. I have an IGH on a Downtube mini and have definitely ridden it less because I don't want to risk having to deal with a flat. When I bought it, I was under the impression that the only difference was that you had to bring an extra wrench, but it's really more involved.
macdonwald is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 11:48 AM
  #41  
PaulRivers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by thdave
Sounds like you need a cable adjustment. Take it to a pro to make sure it's adjusted properly. Mine never slips when adjusted right.
You could also try it yourself, Civia has a decent video here titled "Alfine Shift Cable Adjustment":
https://civiacycles.com/resources/tech/
PaulRivers is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 11:53 AM
  #42  
daredevil
cyclepath
 
daredevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: "The Last Best Place"
Posts: 3,550

Bikes: 2005 Trek Pilot 5.0, 2001 Specialized Sirrus Pro, Kona Lava Dome, Raleigh hardtail converted to commuter, 87 Takara steel road bike, 2008 Trek Soho

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It's not a matter of cable adjustment, it's clutch slip and I'm guessing it's common but no everyone experiences it, especially if you sit most the time.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
daredevil is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 12:24 PM
  #43  
interested
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KÝbenhavn
Posts: 465

Bikes: Kinesisbikes UK Racelight Tk

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by daredevil
It's not a matter of cable adjustment, it's clutch slip and I'm guessing it's common but no everyone experiences it, especially if you sit most the time.
The gear slip is not uncommon on Nexus hubs especially for strong riders. The old Nexus 8 could be torn apart by people who could put a lot of torque into them, but with the newer IGH's like the Alfine, Shimano redesigned the hub and put a "torque limiter" into the hub. You could probably lessen the problem somewhat by exchanging your 22 rear sprocket with the standard 18 tooth sprocket. (I seem to remember that Shimano advice some minimum gearing ratio to avoid torque problems).

--
Regards
interested is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 01:08 PM
  #44  
vik 
cyclopath
 
vik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 5,264

Bikes: Surly Krampus, Surly Straggler, Pivot Mach 6, Bike Friday Tikit, Bike Friday Tandem, Santa Cruz Nomad

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
I have not experienced any difference in this regard between a decent derailler (like Tiagra) and my IGH bike. Both required adjustment after 100-300 miles for optimal shifting. Neither really "requires" constant cleaning of the chain, they seem to work fine without it, and I can just run them until the chain or cogs wear out, though I have no doubt there's a certain number of people who feel the chain should be cleaned regularly - I try to do it once a year, but in the past I've gone years without cleaning a chain on a derailler setup. A rear cassette seems to be slightly more expensive than a rear single ring. As I mentioned - there's not much of a difference for regular road riding.
My most abused IGH bike was setup once 14 months ago...has been ridden on the beach [sand & splashed saltwater], in the desert, winter biking on road [salt/slush/sand, etc...], burning man [corrosive dust], dirt road touring, mtn biking, and more....I've lubed the chain twice and never adjusted the IGH.

My derailleur road bike has seen several adjustments and had the drivetrain cleaned twice in the same period even though it has seen less than 50% the kms and all on road.
__________________
safe riding - Vik
VikApproved
vik is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 10:11 PM
  #45  
youthcom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by daredevil
Since all of you are here, sorry to change topic to a degree but what about clutch slip with IGH. Is that common? I can be hammering a hill, stop briefly and when I start to pedal again, there is a bit of a slip before it engages fully again. Normal or faulty hub?

I might add it happens in some gears, not all.
I can feel this on my new REI folder(Dahon) with a Nexus 7 (my 1st IGH experience). Not too much info from google, but this slip seems to be normal for this hub at least. The only thing that bothers me is you can hear a faint ratcheting on 6 & 7 when pedaling which is normal too I guess on this lower end IGH. The thing I'm not sure of is the "derailleur out of adjustment sound" in 5th gear. Does anyone have any incite into that?
youthcom is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 10:19 PM
  #46  
daredevil
cyclepath
 
daredevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: "The Last Best Place"
Posts: 3,550

Bikes: 2005 Trek Pilot 5.0, 2001 Specialized Sirrus Pro, Kona Lava Dome, Raleigh hardtail converted to commuter, 87 Takara steel road bike, 2008 Trek Soho

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by interested
The gear slip is not uncommon on Nexus hubs especially for strong riders. The old Nexus 8 could be torn apart by people who could put a lot of torque into them, but with the newer IGH's like the Alfine, Shimano redesigned the hub and put a "torque limiter" into the hub. You could probably lessen the problem somewhat by exchanging your 22 rear sprocket with the standard 18 tooth sprocket. (I seem to remember that Shimano advice some minimum gearing ratio to avoid torque problems).

--
Regards
Actually I felt that same slippage with the original 44X18 set up. I'm curious why it only happens in some gears too. For example, the lowest gear doesn't slip at all.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
daredevil is offline  
Old 04-12-10, 11:13 PM
  #47  
Kimmitt 
Senior Member
 
Kimmitt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Beach, ca
Posts: 952

Bikes: RadRunner Plus, Kona Dew Deluxe

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
If you look at a diagram of planetary gears, you'll see that the different speeds have very different configurations of gears. Some of them push force through 2-3 gears; I bet those are the ones that have issues at high torque.

The standard answer is that if you want to hammer, the Rohloff and NuVinci are better at handling high torque. It's one of those "get what you pay for" things, unfortunately.
Kimmitt is offline  
Old 04-13-10, 05:46 AM
  #48  
daredevil
cyclepath
 
daredevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: "The Last Best Place"
Posts: 3,550

Bikes: 2005 Trek Pilot 5.0, 2001 Specialized Sirrus Pro, Kona Lava Dome, Raleigh hardtail converted to commuter, 87 Takara steel road bike, 2008 Trek Soho

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
^^^^thanks for the info, I had an idea that may be the case. I can live with it. just wanted to make sure it wasn't damaged somehow. In spite of that slipping thing, I love the IGH.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
daredevil is offline  
Old 04-13-10, 09:16 AM
  #49  
PaulRivers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by youthcom
I can feel this on my new REI folder(Dahon) with a Nexus 7 (my 1st IGH experience). Not too much info from google, but this slip seems to be normal for this hub at least. The only thing that bothers me is you can hear a faint ratcheting on 6 & 7 when pedaling which is normal too I guess on this lower end IGH. The thing I'm not sure of is the "derailleur out of adjustment sound" in 5th gear. Does anyone have any incite into that?
Despite several people insisting that the Nexus and the Alfine hubs share exactly the same internals, it was my experience a year or two ago that the Nexus made that sound while the Alfine did not. I think it's "normal", and I don't know if it's anything other slightly annoying, but the Alfine doesn't do that.
PaulRivers is offline  
Old 04-13-10, 12:15 PM
  #50  
tatfiend 
Gear Hub fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 2,829

Bikes: Civia Hyland Rohloff, Swobo Dixon, Colnago, Univega

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by macdonwald
+1. If you're not mechanically inclined (like me), this is a major drawback. I have an IGH on a Downtube mini and have definitely ridden it less because I don't want to risk having to deal with a flat. When I bought it, I was under the impression that the only difference was that you had to bring an extra wrench, but it's really more involved.
Depends on the hub IMO. SRAM and Rohloff hubs have excellent design quick release shifter cables. Shimano hubs less so. IMO a Rohloff rear wheel with a QR axle, external shift box and OEM or OEM2 torque connection is as easy to remove as any derailleur rear wheel. Any IGH wheel with a coaster brake will be more of a hassle. A lot depends on the ease of installing and removing the shift cable from the hub. Horizontal dropouts and a rear fender can also be a difficult combination.
__________________
Gear Hubs Owned: Rohloff disc brake, SRAM iM9 disc brake, SRAM P5 freewheel, Sachs Torpedo 3 speed freewheel, NuVinci CVT, Shimano Alfine SG S-501, Sturmey Archer S5-2 Alloy. Other: 83 Colnago Super Record, Univega Via De Oro

Visit and join the Yahoo Geared Hub Bikes group for support and links.
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/Geared_hub_bikes/
tatfiend is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.