Dear Surly
 

Why does the Long Haul Trucker have vertical dropouts?

Surly bills the Cross Check is billed as a jack-of-all trades frame, accordingly spec'd with horizontal dropouts to accomodate internally geared or fixed/ss hubs. In my way of looking at things, the LHT is actually a superior rig overall as a flexible base for loaded commuting or touring applications, thanks to the lower center of gravity, wider wheelbase, longer chainstays, and more options for mounting goodies.

But the vertical dropouts have me stumped. Weren't these originally invented as frame geometry changed and wheels migrated ever closer to the seat tube? The long chain stays on the LHT leave ample seat tube clearance and seem even better suited to horizontal dropouts than the CC. Is it fender-friendliness (I run fenders with horiz dropouts, but I see why vertical could be preferable)? Or maybe it's really not all the commute-friendly as I'm thinking, and most tourers would be set up with a rear derailer anyway?

Just bummed that what seems to be my otherwise ideal frameset comes up short. I'm hoping someone can explain the logic and make me feel better about the logic behind the now nearly universal vertical dropout.

If you're really that bummed about it, get a shop to weld semi-horizontals on it.

I find it much easier to change a tire with vertical dropouts.

You can always use a tensioner with an IGH.

Paul

If your dropouts are horizontal and your quick-release is loose, your wheels may fall off while riding. If you have vertical dropouts, they'll stay until you hit a bump. :)

Well, that's the thing. I mean, I could do that with any frame, but it seems kinda silly on a budget frame like a Surly. (Affordability is way up there among my "ideal" frame criteria :) ) And frankly, if I were going to dump any more cash into things like frame mods and repaints, I'd go with a drool-worthy Bob Jackson that would be setup ideally (apart from price!) right off the bat.

And yeah, I could always run a chain tensioner for an internal gear hub or ss, but what about fixed? I want limitless flexibility, and I want it now! I'm actually somewhat amused at my own hang-up, as I'm well aware there is no do-it-all frame, and that at some level, every frame comes with compromises. In fact, I don't imagine I'd ever run the LHT fixed given the low bb and the frankly unappealing idea of riding a loaded bike fixed. But somehow the vertical dropout sticks in my craw. Maybe I'm just being retro-grouchy about why bike companies turned away from a perfectly functional design.

This is facetious, yes? The wheel will jam against the chainstay before it pulls out.

Eccentric BB?

But I would like to agree with you. I like the LHT and IGH. I just see the upside to Surly of the more broadly accepted vertical drops, and see how you can have it both ways. The Cross-Check is a niche bike partly because of its horizontals -- I wonder which one sells more?

Depends on the frame I suppose. Two different styles of horizontal dropouts:

Would pull out:
http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/news/im...ropouts_hi.jpg

Would not pull out:
http://www.machinehead-software.co.u...rizdropout.jpg

But yes, it was meant to be facetious.

I think for the intended purpose, i.e. touring, the LHT has the right dropouts. Tourists usually use fenders, and vertical dropouts and fenders go together much better than fenders and horizontals. And pulling the wheel into the chainstay after a flat is something most tourists would probably do without.

I'm going to go out an say that horizontal dropouts are pretty useless at this point. If they aren't used for keeping tension (as in a derailer geared bike) vertical dropouts make wheel changes easier, don't allow for misalignment of the wheel, have no danger of slipping, and make fenders a lot easier.

If you want to run SS, fixed, or an IGH, then sliding dropouts are a much better alternative. They have all the advantages of horizontals (by which I mean the one advantage, they take up chain slack) but they can also be used with disk brakes, they don't require re tensioning after every wheel removal, and they just look much cooler.

I suppose I should confess, all of my current bikes have horizontal dropouts, and I have no real problem with them, but I can see how they are not ideal for all circumstances.

Horizontal dropouts make it harder to change a tire/ fix a flat if your bike has fenders, and most touring bikes have fenders. There.

I was disappointed that my Surly LHT has a saddle. I was hoping Surly would come up with something better.

I would take verticle drop outs on my cross check gladly. No reason for Horizontal unless you are using it for a fixed application in my opinion. Mine still slip sometimes, letting the wheel get out of align.

I can see no reason a person would want horizontal dropouts on a LHT.

Wait, what? There are plenty of reasons to prefer vertical dropouts; see, for example, the replies above. But that's not a valid analogy. Worse still, it's not even funny.

Vertical dropouts make for better wheel alignment, easier wheel changes and more secure wheels. The disadvantage is not being able to adjust chain tension, but most bikes, and especially most touring bikes, use derailleur gears.

If the LHT had horizontal dropouts, I would have bought something else.

I've had both. Horizontal dropouts mean, at least for me, removing the panniers so I can balance the bike (awkwardly) between my knees as I straddle the rack, trying (usually futilely) to get the stupid wheel to line up straight. Get it straight, close the QR, discover that it moved. Open the QR, tweak it, close the QR, it moved again. And so on. Are you better than I am at getting your wheel perfectly straight? Probably - but it's not what I want to deal with on my commute, or when I'm loaded for bear on a tour.

The only reason you'd want horizontal dropouts is to run FG - with an IGH or a SS, you can always run a tensioner. If you want to run FG, you'd better knock an extra 12.5mm off your crank length, since that's the amount of additonal bottom bracket drop the LHT has over the CC, so it's the amount you'd have to remove to get back all the clearance. A fixed LHT would be foolish - not only would it be dangerous because of the cranks hitting, but it defeats the entire purpose of the bike.

If you want something to go fixed with, get a steel frame from 1988, or go buy a CC or one of the other appropriate Surly frames. But leave my LHT alone. :)

...or there is also this eccentric BB: http://www.trickstuff.de/index.php?p=d116en1

Someone else mentioned a chain tensioner; if you don't like the look of the traditional (derailleur-style) tensioners there is this one by Yess Labs: http://labs.yesspro.com/products/etr-b

http://static.shopify.com/s/files/1/...out_grande.jpg

FWIW I think that an Alfine-equipped LHT would make a great touring bike or a kick-butt commuter (especially the new Alfine 11-speed)!

This is why they build custom frames.

at least it's a horizontal saddle

I only ride bikes w/ saddles parallel to their rear dropouts

Sorry, but I'm confused. If you want a frame with horizontal dropouts then pick a frame that has horizontal dropouts. Obviously, LHT is not the frame you're looking for since it has vertical dropouts that most people have no issues with. What's the problem here again? How does LHT come short?

The surly LHT comes short for not having horizontal dropouts like the Trek Madone comes short for not having rack mounts. :D

there ya go. /thread

also, for those interested in FG, do you realize how much easier track ends are for this purpose? Getting tension right with track ends is far simpler, there's even little gadgets that go on track ends to pull chain tension just right.

if you're just getting a bike for SS/FG, get one with track ends.