I'm sorry if I've gotten the wrong impression, (it's easy to do on a forum like this) but it was based on what you posted above. It sounded to me like your employees are expected to take your call whether they are off the clock or not. Seems like being on call to me.

I didn't get the impression you were some sort of tyrant or evil boss. Other things you've posted made it clear that you care about your employees. I guess that's what I find so insidious about this stuff. The people I know at my job who think nothing of calling people on a Sunday to help them out with something at work aren't evil people either. One of them used to be my boss and for the most part was very pleasant to work for. But when she called, helping her out wasn't exactly optional. While I'm not in a position where I get calls from her anymore, some of my staff do. I've told them when you're out on a date with your significant other or something, don't feel obligated to take her or anyone else's call from work including mine. I'll deal with the fallout.

There are exceptions. We sometimes do have critical things going on in the evening or weekend but in that instance we tell people in advance that a phone call may be coming if there's a problem. In that case I would expect them to answer or get back to us quickly. Maybe that's what you're talking about.

Now of course I have no idea what you do for a living and turning off a phone could have severe consequences for somebody's safety, but lots of businesses have informal policies like yours, including ones where missing a call has no consequences that anyone would remember after a few days or weeks.

On rare occasions I will call somebody outside of work if the situation warrants it. But if I can't reach them, the world goes on.

Many do not agree with you. Upon learning that I don't have one, I've had many envious cell owners tell me they wish they didn't "need to have one". (usually for work) It seems they despised the leash.

Others in this thread have noted how nice a cell free vacation can be, or how great it is that they can sometimes leave the things off... or in my case not ever be bother with one.

The cell phone has allowed many to otherwise plan poorly. We've been meeting girls just fine, and splitting up / reuniting with friends at major events successfully for thousands of years now. (I'll meet you back here at 7:00 and such and such, or whatever) Many cell addicts would be / are now totally lost without their electronic crutch.

My cars and bikes tend to not break down that often, so this wonderful feature alone hardly makes a cell phone essential.

Interesting as all this is, this thread is about whether or not a cell phone is essential for a bicycle commute. Of course it isn’t, but just look how many addicts said that it is.

^^^^

It's not the phone's fault that people can't limit their use. Every mobile that I've ever owned has had a 'silent' and 'off' button, not to mention that I can simply choose not to pick it up.



As for being a crutch, that's just bizarre. For example I was supposed to meet a friend at a bar last Sunday. She lives closer and arrived first. The bar was closed, so she called me and we arranged to meet elsewhere. It saved both her waiting in the rain for me, and me walking to the bar and then the new place in the rain. What's bad about that?

I'm not one of those who said that value equates with necessity but you are denying the value. The data in "the cloud" is no better or worse than the data you find in books. You always have to trust, but verify. In fact Kindle runs on my Droid so I can get the books in an instant if only a book will do. I can use my phone to get seminal research papers by highly respected people in every field. I can read Sumerian proverbs to glimpse an all too human yet oddly alien culture from the dawn of cities. I can download the Volsunga Saga to better understand Norse mythology I read about in my paper copy of the Sagas of Icelanders and to compliment my paper copy of Tolkien's Sigurd and Gudrun. I could go on and on and on but the truth is that the cell phone is just a tool with many functions and the quality of the data you get from it is in no way diminished because it came from "the cloud". It is stupid to say that it is. If you don't want a cell phone no one cares, if you are going to try to argue they are the work of the Devil no one believes you. The internet is becoming, in part, a giant library and a cell phone is a mobile portal into it. It is no better or worse than any other library in terms of its quality of data. Few traditional libraries, if any, match its scope. And yet that is just a part of the internet and a part of the functionality of a cell phone.

Your dog comment was totally lame and I've explained why. Yes, I agree you totally own the science of constructing lame arguments so to that extent, touche.

No you are not a dummy. You have adopted a common intellectual posturing that locks you into a rigid way of thinking and prevents you from understanding the value or even the true nature of certain things. For example, you are not in an intellectual competition with Google because Google is not an intelligence. Your twice repeated assertion that you are smarter than a trademark is as absurd as your contention that you "owned me" with your dog comment. If you want a dog comment with some teeth to it try this one which is common among professional dog trainers, "Dogs only do what works." It applies to human beings too and it explains why so many of us use cell phones for their widely diverse functions, they work. They don't own us, they don't mislead us, they certainly don't isolate us, they just work. If you want to live your life without them that is fine although it appears that the irony of using one type of internet portal to post comments decrying another is lost on you. If you want to take that posture even further you can join the Amish and I am sure that you will have a rich and rewarding life among them and I say that without any implied sarcasm, honest. I truly believe that, I just don't adopt that lifestyle myself. If you feel that choice makes you superior to those who embrace modern technology you are mistaken. The use or non-use of cell phone technology has nothing to say about the quality of character or intellectual prowess of a human being.

Ken

Just out of curiosity when you do call somebody in their off hours do they get paid for that time?

Not saying you do this at all just saying that this happens more often then not...you are more the exception in this day and age if you don't abuse salary employees in their off hours without compensation.

Technology has made the line between work and personal time a bit blurred especially for salary employees and that is what is significant about the lawsuit I posted where AT&T is being sued by people who were not being compensated for being wired to the company 24/7 via a black berry or laptop and expected to work "on demand 24/7" without compensation.

I see this as problem and why I am content staying at my level and being an hourly employee because my personal time to me is very valuable to me. As an employee I expect to be compensated when my life is interrupted outside traditiona business hours. A salary employee is often abused since they are unable to claim overtime and in today's world it has gotten way out of hand.

Now I do agree some employees knew this going into the job and the hope is their pay would be such as to reflect their marriage to their company. Many did not know they were expected to be available 24/7 when handed that blackberry.

Example:

I am the close person to my office. If the alarm goes off or somebody has an emergency need I am the guy that gets called first. I get a 3 hour call out even if it only takes me 30 minutes to take care of problem to compensate me but I am not required to be in the area and we do not have a "on call need". If I don't answer the boss starts calling people (and they get the call out if hourly) or goes in himself (and he doesn't get call out and 40+ minutes away).

When you do the math My staying as an hourly employee I may well make as much money as my boss since they have to pay me for anything over 40 hours and he just has to suck it up when they have to get on an emergency conference call on a Saturday afternoon when they are out with their family. They also think twice before making me work OT when they are having to pay me $30+ an hour, Something that doesn't happen to a Salary person.

Like I said "you are the exception" that your employees are very fortunate to work for if you are as considerate of their personal time as you say.

Like I said, there is a ON/OFF button.
Learn to use it.

Also we have a choice of not using the "Post Quick Reply", but sometimes the damn button own us... we are addicted to it and don't even know it.
;)

:D :D :D Omg, LOL ROFLMAO dude! ;-)

I have one. I don't use it while commuting because it's an unnecessary distraction.

absolutely! if i fall into a ditch and break my legs, i can use my phone to post it onto facebook and hope someone reads it and comes to help

I use the GPS tracking on mine for ride stats - it can give me speeds, altitude, distance etc. I also carry it during inclement weather or riding on inaccessible trails - I keep it in a waterproof water bottle container.

Oh shucks! Sorry Paul, this post is the real killer.:lol:

Sigurd and Gudrun was pretty lame, I just took it back to the library. I think its publication was mainly about making money for Christopher. I enjoyed the Beowulf-style meter, but the work got shakier the further I read. Wagner did it better, anyway. So are you trying to prove how smart you are? Do you want my SAT score or something?Yo dawg. I herd you like English so I put an auxiliary verb next to your dependent verb so you caqn make sense while you make sentences.[img]http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/06/26/xzibit_narrowweb__300x450,0.jpgTell me how your fancy pants posts about how much Tolkein you've read are NOT intellectual posturing. Ever read Hamlet? Your posts seem fit for Polonius. "what is it to be mad but mad? Pity 'tis, tis true... but let that go." "Teeth..." good one.

I think it's better to live w/o a cell phone. Any smugness on my part is all in your head. It sure is getting a lot of peope worked up!

Google is worthless compared to a decent library. The internet is vulnerable to cyber attack, to corporate or g'vt manipulation... any number of things. I grew up in the 2m volume library where my father has worked my whole life. I value any one floor of that library over all the data servers in the world. But there's no accounting for taste....

About the "dogs do what works..." That's kind of my point. They abase themselves for treats. I think that our society's devotion to the cellular phone is a bit slavish-- we have come to do rediculous things for the small rewards offered by Nextel or whatever. I'd bet you that that the neural pathways that light up when the lights start blinking and the buzzer starts vibrating are the same neural pathways that fire off when a gambling addict sits in front of a blinking ringing slot machine.

Dogs run after rabbits under tractor trailer tires. I'd like to retain my humanity, thanks.

Well if You must know I have drivers that live in their trucks 5 days a week that are paid by mileage and not hourly but can be driving anytime day or night. I pretty much know when they are bunked in. It is an industry that things change in a moment. If I need to divert a truck to a different destination and I don't reach the driver every hour he is 70 miles further out of route. Not only that you just don't turn a rig just anywhere, it might take 20 miles just to turn it around.

As far as my salary employees are concerned if I should call them in on the weekend they do get paid time & 1/2 for an automatic 8 hours even if they only come in and work 1 hour. It is always optional because there is nothing I can't do from clerical to warehouse functions to driving my rigs. I am very demanding when it comes to responsibility, & accountability but I have very few problems with my people and it has nothing to do with fear. People are good employees because they want to be not because someone is yelling and threatening them. But if I decide I am done with you that is it. I would much rather be out on the road not doing what I do.

I'm glad to hear being part of a union absolves you from being punctual and reporting for work on time (a phone call to say you'll be late is a simple courtesy). Unions are what made this country great (and got all the manufacturing jobs sent offshore to China.........)

Oh yeah, all the cell phones are made in China......coincidence? I think not.:innocent:

I hadn't considered OTR drivers and yes there is a point where that would be the right call. I was more talking about a Cuber or a 9-5 facility worker like I am.
You are 100% correct that worker having pride in themselves to do the job to the best of their ability is always going to trump how managment treats them. A good manager compliments a good employee and they become a team. A good emplyee will still be a good employee till driven away by a bad manager. Then they will be a good employee somewhere else.

Thats a hell of a call out policy. I was happy with my three hour minimum. Your employees are very lucky to have such good management and corporate policy.

Company I work for has been so hamstrung by the union (and the monopoly upper management that is use to dealing with a regulated service) that when the nonregulated non union divisions merged the management of the merged company was the part formerly in control of majority union and requlated devision ended up being the controlling management of the whole company. They are destroying the nonunion (and the part that is profitable) part of the company's moral treating them as Union and there is a good chance they will drive them to become union as a result. I Lost 10 days of vacation this year after 17+ years of employment and 17 years of excellent reviews so that the Union wouldn't start deciding that they needed the same benefits despite the fact that my nonunion facility is run by half the people and does twice the work of a comparable union facility. We make them look bad and we are suffering as a result because of the fear of the Union from the upper management.

The people I support get half as much done and drive 3 times the miles when the management principles from the other division (union) was placed on them. The funny part is the upper management is all running around patting themselves on the back for implementing those changes and making extra levels of bureaucracy for the employees to deal with that killed their efficiency.

We went from "treat it as your own" management style to "don't fart without getting permission from a director or face possible termination" and once you figure out how to do your job in such a way as to get a good review we will change the rules so we can give you a bad review so as not to give you a merit raise.

The failure of the management is clearly verifiable with the company again being rated worst in the industry by JD power. Before the merger we were rated best several years running.

I use to be proud to say where I worked. Now I just don't say at all.

Unions also got us the 8 hour day, child labour laws, a minimum wage, and unlocked doors so the workers can leave the factories if there's a fire (policies the Chinese have not yet implemented, which probably has a lot to do with why our corporations export jobs there).

True, but these are all entrenched in labour laws. Unions are big businesses unto themselves now and have long since lost their raison d'etre in the western world but I agree were needed at one time here and are needed now in China & other PacRim countries.

Imagine how much lower your taxes would be (I'm assuming you live in Canada as you spelled labour with a u) if PSAC didn't make it impossible to effectively manage the public service.How did you feel when the Ontario Ministry of Revenue (HST related) employees who transferred to the federal government qualified for severance packages without missing a single day of work?

In any case, my comments were meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek - the "I'm a union guy...." comments just reminded me of a Strawbs song........

Hey guys, cut the crap and bring back the humor. I was on a good laughing streak until China and the union got involved.

I'm in the IWW, which is not a big business by any means, and it's about the only union that supports the service industry, minimum wage earners, and those who earn below minimum wage.

Regarding low taxes, I don't care for them unless they can get me a good standard of living in a country with low crime and a healthy infrastructure - none of which are the case in the US. I've lived in a couple of European countries before I came to the US, and I would prefer to pay European levels of taxation if it would give me half of the benefits that Europeans get for what they pay. People in the US don't have the same idea of what taxes should accomplish, which I think is unfortunate, especially since it effectively limits their freedoms.

As for me being Canadian, no. I live in Maryland but I'm from England. I try not to let living in the US corrupt my spelling. :)

Even a quite casual look almost anywhere in public proves ignoring the call of the cell to be much easier said than done. This is why we have "unlimited" plans. Slaves to the phone are almost everywhere one looks. Am I to believe that most of these calls are anything close to essential? haha, that's funny. If you are indeed the master of your contraption then you truly appear to one of the few.

There's no doubt that they can sometimes be useful. My point about it being a crutch is that having this instant access to others has caused many to fail to, or even forget how, to plan ahead. And why should they when they can just call or text everyone, and get near instant repsonse? Ask people how they deal without their phone. Many will admit they are lost. What's good about this?

The ever quickening pace of communication seems to be anything but freeing. Like you and many others have noted, it can be very relaxing to just turn off the phone (or not have one) and slow down.

Can you hear me now?

Catching up on some off-topic subthreads....If you want to see some slaves to the cell phone, check out the high school classrooom where I teach (90% minority/100% free lunch). I've also taught in a non-union school. Had to stay until 10PM many nights. Brought home $325/wk in New York City during the height of the dot com boom. That didn't go very far. Working now for ten years in public schools, I've been able to have time (and money enough) to raise a family.

Back on topic, I just returned from choir rehearsal 7 miles from home. One of the larger thunderstorm cells of the year hit just as we were finishing up. OH NO! No cell phone! :) Well, I stopped at the brew pub around the corner and enjoyed a nice 8.2 abv Oktoberfest. Talked with some folks, and then headed down the road following the distant lightning putting on a show over Long Island Sound.

Some folks might have called in a ride... I like my way better.

+1.

Perhaps people enjoy always being in touch with others. Not everyone is that same. To each their own.

What's bad about being in touch instantly? You act is as people are somehow idiots becasue their plans change or they make decisions on the fly. Not everyone is uber-pedantic and wishes to plan things out to a T ahead of time. Sometimes I'll even just call a friend after work and ask if they want to meet me for a drink. What's the harm?

I ran across two men on the trail yesterday, one of them hurt pretty badly. They didn't speak english and I didn't speak spanish. I took out my phone and called 911, then waited for the cops to arrive. Turns out they were mugged.

This is the second time in a year or so that I've used my cell phone while commuting to call the cops for help - that's twice as often as I have flat tires.

Yikes. That must be some trail. I wonder if they hit the Spanish speaking guys figuring that they're more likely to be partaking in a cash economy...

Prince Georges, MD - an exciting place to live. My other recent call wasn't on the trail, but a main road through town. Some lady was jumping up and down on the back end of a Ford Mustang, screaming, and trying to rip the canvas top off with her hands. I think I just see more of what's going on when I'm on my bike.

You're on the money about targeted muggings (this isn't the first in the area). Poorer immigrants, legal or not, are more likely to carry cash and less likely to call the cops.

Side note: Our county motto is "Building Livable Communities." "Livable" - now that's a high bar to set!