And/or $47,850 fine, Yikes.

How long is your commute RayB?

Slippery slope much? You're correct, in that it is a logical falacy though. Once again, intellectual dishonestly doesn't merit much of a response here -- the heaviest English 3-speed bike vs. a smart car?

Another point that some folks have missed: I'm not arguing that cyclists break the law - I'm arguing that current laws be revised to provide for cyclists instead of providing solely for the interest of motorists....as they currently do by and large in most places.

Depends on the intersection I guess, but I think it's pretty well documented around here that laws don't often line up with reality :)

It's 2010 already, dammit! I want my flying car!

Doh, should of known this may go into a legality thread. I was frustrated by the fact of how much time I waste at lights, posted and went to bed.:D

My commute is 27km and change one way. I tend to do only one way rides these days as it pretty much doubles my commute time to take the bicycle. I can do it in 50 mins on the train. When I use the bike its upwards of 1.5 hours in decent conditions, i.e. no wind or hangover etc etc:D

At this point it would be great to find a google maps mashup that calculates least traffic lights between 2 points. Or the route with the most runnable minor lights:eek:

It seems as more people begin cycling we are getting more and more threads about penalties for not following the law. My gripe is usually not about the law, just when it is selectively enforced and/or excessive and highly punitive.

Well, RayB, you'd be wasting that time anyway, car or bike; while I understand the frustration of stop-n-go, I've seen the vids of Tokyo... YIKES! Like Times Square on New Year's Eve ALL THE TIME! There IS no such thing as efficient travel there!

Now, to the general OT discussion (i.e., the Idaho stop...):

On the face of it, the Idaho stop sounds good; as I understand it, it's like the right-turn-on-red law -- stop, make sure traffic is clear, then go. But, like the RTOR, it will soon be lost on the practitioners that YOU HAVE TO STOP FIRST AND YIELD TO ALL TRAFFIC!

I have seen, over the last 10-15 years, a legion of drivers jump out from a red to get ahead of traffic they didn't want to wait for, and then belligerently holler about their "right" to make the turn on red! I've begun to believe that the RTOR needs to be repealed because of the rampant stupidity of entitlement.

So, bottom line, I'm not in favor of the Idaho stop.

Well at least idaho is famous for something:) Its even more fun with only having to yield at stop sign:lol:

Uh, we all get to decide which laws we wish to obey. The agreement we are bound by as citizens is not that we will obey all laws. The agreement is that we agree to pay the penalty if we are legitimately caught breaking the law. (after all, if we expected everyone to obey every law "or else," then the penalty would be the death penalty: but it isn't because we allow each other the choice of either obeying the law, or paying the penalty.)

As for laws in Tokyo, I wouldn't worry about it much. Not a chance in hell that the local bike/foot police are going to catch you and ticket you. If they do catch up, play the dumb gaijin card and pretend not to speak Japanese and they will likely be too embarrassed about not being able to communicate with you that they'll just repeat something like "stop sign please." and go away.

OP, you should try riding a mama-chari -- you get the handy basket on the front to carry your gear and maybe they'd cut you some slack at all the red lights! :-)

Where in Tokyo do you commute from and to? I used to live there and based on my recollection, I think you're pretty brave.

lol ya, I could go with a mamachari but it would do my head in. I'm coming from Saitama into work in Kamiyacho. As the other poster stated, I could play the dumb gaijin card which would certainly work most of the time. Perhaps I just need to move closer to work so its a shorter commute given the congestion.

All I have to say is, I've never once had any sort of run-in at an intersection where I chose to proceed. Usually I do a near trackstand and proceed if safe. I've had all sorts of altercations in other scenarios while obeying the law to the letter, never while 'breaking' it in this manner though. I guess it's similar to how the German autobahn is apparently less accident prone than American highways - the freedom of speed makes drivers more aware of their surroundings. They make their own decisions with no hard rules, and are that much safer because of it. That doesn't apply to everything, not by a long shot, but I think in this case it does.

That's a long commute! Do you work at the U.S. Embassy?

I used to go to a great bike shop in Kamiyacho - Y's Bike Academy. http://www.ysroad.net/ The guy I knew there left to found his own shop ("Sports Bike Hi-Road," down in Musashi-Koyama), but that is still a really nice place.

Commuting across lower Manhattan, I stop at red lights. I then get off the bike and walk across with all the other jaywalking pedestrians. Then hop back on. Do the same for right turn on reds which are illegal in NYC.

Which makes a good point to this discussion. Even though we all cringe at the suggestion, a bicycle at very slow speeds really is not much different than a pedestrian. What really is the difference between getting off an walking your bike across and rolling very slowly through the intersection? I don't know many people who get up in arms about jaywalking...

I'm surprised nobody has asked this yet: what is the penalty for running a red light in a car? Is it the same, or is the penalty only this severe if you are on a bicycle?