Stop at red conversation
02-09-11, 11:34 AM
#26
Banned.
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Steely Dan,
Maybe Chicago is just like DC, the great majority of cabbies somehow get over here on H1B obnoxious driver visas. What happens is they come from third world countries where pedestrians and cyclists are second class citizens, and the cab drivers now are armed with cars. They don't realize that we, here, ride for fitness and enjoyment. Unless there is some penalty for their dangerous behavoir they'll never realize the costs of it. A few months ago, here in the Admas Morgan area of DC an especially obnoxious and dangerous cabbie came close to knowingly running me over. With a DC cop even watching me I taught him a lesson first calmly explaining that his decision to come to this country and make his living as a professional driver and then endangering me was unacceptable and I then taught him a lesson that cost him probably about 150 dollars and the rest of his day.
All you milquetoasts say what you want, I'd do it again. I bet he won't forget ...if anyone thinks our letting any driver endanger us works you just don't get out enough...
Maybe Chicago is just like DC, the great majority of cabbies somehow get over here on H1B obnoxious driver visas. What happens is they come from third world countries where pedestrians and cyclists are second class citizens, and the cab drivers now are armed with cars. They don't realize that we, here, ride for fitness and enjoyment. Unless there is some penalty for their dangerous behavoir they'll never realize the costs of it. A few months ago, here in the Admas Morgan area of DC an especially obnoxious and dangerous cabbie came close to knowingly running me over. With a DC cop even watching me I taught him a lesson first calmly explaining that his decision to come to this country and make his living as a professional driver and then endangering me was unacceptable and I then taught him a lesson that cost him probably about 150 dollars and the rest of his day.
All you milquetoasts say what you want, I'd do it again. I bet he won't forget ...if anyone thinks our letting any driver endanger us works you just don't get out enough...
Last edited by daibutsu; 02-09-11 at 01:14 PM.
02-09-11, 11:42 AM
#27
Descends like a rock
My position on this is as I have said before. A bike is sort of a vehicle, sort of a pedestrian, but mostly its a bike. Motor vehicle laws applied 100% often dont make sense and pedestrian laws applied 100% to bikes often dont make sense. The laws are out of sync with practicality, so we have to find our own way sometimes. The "safe" route (safe as in staying out of trouble) is just obey the motor vehicle laws as most jurisdictions require.
Yes, its illegal to run a red light on a bike. Its also illegal for a pedestrian to cross the street without the WALK sign. I consider both to be about the same severity of offense. There's a reason why its pretty rare for police to ticket bikes running lights or stop signs, just as its pretty rare for police to ticket jaywalkers.
As for the motorists that get upset - they need to get over it. They are already upset just because we are on the road. I try to be polite and courteous, ride safely and try to not be intentionally annoying to motorists, but if they are upset by things of little consequence, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
Yes, its illegal to run a red light on a bike. Its also illegal for a pedestrian to cross the street without the WALK sign. I consider both to be about the same severity of offense. There's a reason why its pretty rare for police to ticket bikes running lights or stop signs, just as its pretty rare for police to ticket jaywalkers.
As for the motorists that get upset - they need to get over it. They are already upset just because we are on the road. I try to be polite and courteous, ride safely and try to not be intentionally annoying to motorists, but if they are upset by things of little consequence, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
02-09-11, 11:48 AM
#28
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Whoah. This opinionated stuff seems more suited for P&R than this thread. I understand the tangent that spawned it, but c'mon. Don't make the mistake of assuming everyone here shares your perspective on this very politicized issue.
Can we talk about commuting here?
Aren't we talking more about stopsigns (and the discretion to run them if warranted)?
Can we talk about commuting here?
Aren't we talking more about stopsigns (and the discretion to run them if warranted)?
Here in suburban Minneapolis I asked a cop friend of mine who told me, "If I ever see a cyclist stop at a controlled intersection with no other vehicle to challenge right of way, I will have to arrest him for stupidity."
02-09-11, 12:32 PM
#29
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As usual, different geographical areas bring vastly different perspectives to this hot topic.
Here in suburban Minneapolis I asked a cop friend of mine who told me, "If I ever see a cyclist stop at a controlled intersection with no other vehicle to challenge right of way, I will have to arrest him for stupidity."
Here in suburban Minneapolis I asked a cop friend of mine who told me, "If I ever see a cyclist stop at a controlled intersection with no other vehicle to challenge right of way, I will have to arrest him for stupidity."
At a light, I'll always come to a complete stop, put a foot down, then assess whether or not I need to wait for the light to change. If the crosswalk timer has already started (meaning the lights will change soon), I'll wait. If it is dark, and I'm the only human being within 200 yards in all directions, I'll go. The rest sits in the grey area of discretion, but I always err on the safe side (which is also a judgement call).
Cops seem to give me the benefit of the doubt, particularly if there is clearly nobody there and the light is reliant on a larger vehicle to trip the sensors. If a cop is nearby and it looks like my wait time will be less than a minute, I'll generally wait it out (unless the streets are totally vacant and it would be just dumb to sit there).
02-09-11, 01:50 PM
#30
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In regards to rolling through questionable areas at night, there is one section that I tried to excise from my route because it's a little ghetto and I'll probably have at least one person accost me verbally every week just going through there maybe 2 or 3 nights a week. Now that I'm riding home much later, it's getting worse.
02-09-11, 01:56 PM
#31
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Let's see how simple I can make this.
IT DOESN'T MATTER how you think or feel about it; THE LAW OF THE LAND, by which we operate a society of 300 million (not always well, naturally, but that's people for you) is what we all have to go by. We don't get to ignore the law because we disagree with it. Because you may get away with it a few times DOES NOT MEAN it's legal.
IT DOESN'T MATTER how you think or feel about it; THE LAW OF THE LAND, by which we operate a society of 300 million (not always well, naturally, but that's people for you) is what we all have to go by. We don't get to ignore the law because we disagree with it. Because you may get away with it a few times DOES NOT MEAN it's legal.
02-09-11, 02:06 PM
#32
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KludgeFudge: Agreed. I have to admit that I am more afraid of the possibility of being wrongly arrested for drugs (as it happens I don't and haven't tried them) than I am of the any addicts that may crop up if the drug laws were simply repealed, and the police simply dealt with real crimes. Not only that, but many robberies would simply not happen because addicts would have much less reason to steal to purchase the drugs that would then cost but a fraction of current prices.
Tor
Tor
02-09-11, 03:12 PM
#33
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Well if you really are in Siberia I can understand you not knowing the answer to your question. If you are in the US you might turn on a TV once in a while and look at a map. He's front line of the invasion of all the lawlessness that spills over our poorly protected southern border.
02-09-11, 04:31 PM
#34
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I ignore just about every law I don't agree with: If enough people ignore a law, and nothing bad happens, that can lead people to start questioning the validity of said law, and then maybe the law getting changed. i think "because its the law" is just about the worst reason to do anything.
Remember, we're not just talking about slowly riding through a red light when no one else is around, you said every law you don't agree with. Slippery slope my friend.
02-09-11, 05:15 PM
#35
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Ignoring trival traffic laws doesn't lead to lawlessness. If it did, speeders would have destroyed the social order years ago....
02-09-11, 07:19 PM
#36
Cycle Year Round
Let's see how simple I can make this.
IT DOESN'T MATTER how you think or feel about it; THE LAW OF THE LAND, by which we operate a society of 300 million (not always well, naturally, but that's people for you) is what we all have to go by. We don't get to ignore the law because we disagree with it. Because you may get away with it a few times DOES NOT MEAN it's legal.
The bicycle-related traffic laws are based on the UVC, a federal code. The UVC says bikes have all the rights and duties of motor vehicles on the road. It's up to states to augment that -- some ban sidewalk riding, others define a bike as a "vehicle" (so much for 'ped, pedal, pedestrian; and, BTW, cars have pedals, too) -- but all 50 protect our rights to the road. AND they charge us with the responsibility to operate sensibly.
Thought doesn't matter (but don't stop thinking, you may actually be the one to build that better mousetrap); feeling doesn't matter. Culture and upbringing don't matter. The law is the set of rules we use to get along with strangers who don't think like we do.
IT DOESN'T MATTER how you think or feel about it; THE LAW OF THE LAND, by which we operate a society of 300 million (not always well, naturally, but that's people for you) is what we all have to go by. We don't get to ignore the law because we disagree with it. Because you may get away with it a few times DOES NOT MEAN it's legal.
The bicycle-related traffic laws are based on the UVC, a federal code. The UVC says bikes have all the rights and duties of motor vehicles on the road. It's up to states to augment that -- some ban sidewalk riding, others define a bike as a "vehicle" (so much for 'ped, pedal, pedestrian; and, BTW, cars have pedals, too) -- but all 50 protect our rights to the road. AND they charge us with the responsibility to operate sensibly.
Thought doesn't matter (but don't stop thinking, you may actually be the one to build that better mousetrap); feeling doesn't matter. Culture and upbringing don't matter. The law is the set of rules we use to get along with strangers who don't think like we do.
I do stop at red lights on military bases here, since they do give a damn about cyclist and they properly adjust the sensors.
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02-09-11, 08:04 PM
#37
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You must be young. Yes, lawlessness, particularly on the part of motorists, has damaged, perhaps irreparably, our social order. If the 40,000 annual deaths and 4,000,000 annual maimings don't get your attention, how about the state of our infrastructure (sewers, dams, water systems, roads, bridges, railways, schools) compared to fifty years ago. Worse yet, we have so little social conscience that we are debating how to cut taxes back even further to avoid repairing/replacing what we have used up. While correlation does not equal causation, there is at least a rational model to support the notion that back when lawful driving was the norm we had a healthier society and that there is a linkage. Lawful driving requires placing someone else's needs ahead of your own, which is just what a healthy society requires.
02-09-11, 08:07 PM
#38
Senior Member
There really are a significant number of problems with the downtown area that the business owners are trying to fix, but that doesn't eliminate the problem.
There is a (one of probably 2 in the area) female prostitute that uses the Cathedral's fencing to hide in the shadows from passing police. In passing, you never would notice the guy standing about 15 feet behind her. One of the benefits of being on a bike, and observant.
At the intersection less than 20 feet away, you've got 2-3 drug dealers on the left corner in front of the pizza joint, and on the right are 4-5 transvestite prostitutes in front of the usada ropa shop. Coming to a stop at this light doesn't necessarily mean they're going to beat you up for your whip at all.
Rather, they want to protest their privacy, and still have that high school mentality of "what are you looking at?"
It is that childish mentality that makes them dangerous. Having trannys come over and put their hands on your shoulder and say things like "what's up, baby" combines to the stress level and makes it dangerous because, they too, have pimps stalking nearby.
The teens in the area are brazen, and look up to the Gulf Cartel and Zetas. I have driven by in my Suburban (before I sold it) on the way home and had 5 teens pull a pistol on me at the stop light and just laugh and shake it at me as I tore out of there.
By the time I contacted the police, and drove back around they were already ghosts down alleys.
The everyday people here rock, they may not be the most bike-centric, or even friendly toward bikers, but they're not the issue at 10 p.m. It truly is the native nightlife here that makes commuting at night and waiting for lights a danger.
One other interesting point, that doesn't limit itself to bike commuting at lights (but the light system in general):
We have 4 major intersections that run parallel to the Interstate. I noticed that the light is set to give the maximum time to cross traffic. This allows the access road traffic about 4-5 cars to get through a green before it turns red. There are certain routes that require me to have to flow with that traffic. I've played the wait for a green game. Interestingly enough, you have to be trackstanding and prepared for an all out sprint to get across 1 green cycle.
In Texas, generally, the rule is 3 cars after the light. That means 3 people will run a red and all other traffic adapt to it and adjust their start time accordingly. This means that when a light turns green, there is a VERY good chance when I sprint off through the intersection, I may still have 3 cars doing 15 MPH over the speed limit to account for. Just an observation.
There is a (one of probably 2 in the area) female prostitute that uses the Cathedral's fencing to hide in the shadows from passing police. In passing, you never would notice the guy standing about 15 feet behind her. One of the benefits of being on a bike, and observant.
At the intersection less than 20 feet away, you've got 2-3 drug dealers on the left corner in front of the pizza joint, and on the right are 4-5 transvestite prostitutes in front of the usada ropa shop. Coming to a stop at this light doesn't necessarily mean they're going to beat you up for your whip at all.
Rather, they want to protest their privacy, and still have that high school mentality of "what are you looking at?"
It is that childish mentality that makes them dangerous. Having trannys come over and put their hands on your shoulder and say things like "what's up, baby" combines to the stress level and makes it dangerous because, they too, have pimps stalking nearby.
The teens in the area are brazen, and look up to the Gulf Cartel and Zetas. I have driven by in my Suburban (before I sold it) on the way home and had 5 teens pull a pistol on me at the stop light and just laugh and shake it at me as I tore out of there.
By the time I contacted the police, and drove back around they were already ghosts down alleys.
The everyday people here rock, they may not be the most bike-centric, or even friendly toward bikers, but they're not the issue at 10 p.m. It truly is the native nightlife here that makes commuting at night and waiting for lights a danger.
One other interesting point, that doesn't limit itself to bike commuting at lights (but the light system in general):
We have 4 major intersections that run parallel to the Interstate. I noticed that the light is set to give the maximum time to cross traffic. This allows the access road traffic about 4-5 cars to get through a green before it turns red. There are certain routes that require me to have to flow with that traffic. I've played the wait for a green game. Interestingly enough, you have to be trackstanding and prepared for an all out sprint to get across 1 green cycle.
In Texas, generally, the rule is 3 cars after the light. That means 3 people will run a red and all other traffic adapt to it and adjust their start time accordingly. This means that when a light turns green, there is a VERY good chance when I sprint off through the intersection, I may still have 3 cars doing 15 MPH over the speed limit to account for. Just an observation.
The real estate market is looking better every day. Maybe its time to make a change? 
02-09-11, 08:11 PM
#39
Senior Member
You must be young. Yes, lawlessness, particularly on the part of motorists, has damaged, perhaps irreparably, our social order. If the 40,000 annual deaths and 4,000,000 annual maimings don't get your attention, how about the state of our infrastructure (sewers, dams, water systems, roads, bridges, railways, schools) compared to fifty years ago. Worse yet, we have so little social conscience that we are debating how to cut taxes back even further to avoid repairing/replacing what we have used up. While correlation does not equal causation, there is at least a rational model to support the notion that back when lawful driving was the norm we had a healthier society and that there is a linkage. Lawful driving requires placing someone else's needs ahead of your own, which is just what a healthy society requires.
02-09-11, 09:33 PM
#40
Senior Member
Yes, its illegal to run a red light on a bike. Its also illegal for a pedestrian to cross the street without the WALK sign. I consider both to be about the same severity of offense. There's a reason why its pretty rare for police to ticket bikes running lights or stop signs, just as its pretty rare for police to ticket jaywalkers.
As for the motorists that get upset - they need to get over it. They are already upset just because we are on the road. I try to be polite and courteous, ride safely and try to not be intentionally annoying to motorists, but if they are upset by things of little consequence, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
As for the motorists that get upset - they need to get over it. They are already upset just because we are on the road. I try to be polite and courteous, ride safely and try to not be intentionally annoying to motorists, but if they are upset by things of little consequence, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
https://simplecycle-marc.blogspot.com...gized-for.html
and found that more than 80% of the drivers were just as guilty.
Marc
