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Originally Posted by JohnJ80
(Post 12623891)
But the big thing he was putting forward was it it more dangerous to ride on the sidewalk or on the road. Which this study absolutely doesn't say.
What also he doesn't note is how much safer it is becoming in terms of fatalities. Number of fatalities is almost cut in half from 1975 to 2009 yet the number of bicycles sold every year runs to about 18-20 million units. Presuming that they don't get thrown away, that is a lot of people on a lot of bicycles and is probably increasing. But even it the number of cyclists stays constant, it is still getting a lot safer to ride on the road then (can be inferred). Unless, of course, one presumes that people are continuing to buy bicycles at the rate of 20 million per year and then ceasing to ride them. Pretty low rate of fatality either way. I guess if he is this worried about it, and doesn't understand the statistics, he probably shouldn't ride on the sidewalk either. J. I think it really just boils down to this: If you understand the risks of riding on the sidewalk and take steps to mitigate them, then it can be more safe than riding on the street. To me this means basically getting off the bike at every driveway and street crossing. There are other occasions when riding on the sidewalk is safer than being on the street. There's a sidewalk near my house that runs along the border of a golf course uninterrupted for about 1/2 mile. I would argue that taking that sidewalk instead of the street running parallel to it is safer, though neither are particularly dangerous. It's not safer for the pedestrians I may encounter and it's always possible that I may get hit by a stray golfball. There are streets that are particularly dangerous for various reasons for cyclists and there may or may not be sidewalks nearby that are safer. The problem with all the studies is that they don't take into consideration local conditions. I can ride all the way to my job on streets where the speed limit doesn't exceed 30 mph and where the drivers are used to sharing the roads with cyclists and pedestrians. It's not like that everywhere. |
Originally Posted by Caspar_s
(Post 12611822)
Do you drive? The whole argument of "not riding because the roads are dangerous" is crazy because YOU'RE the ones driving!
Do you drive? Stop that, it's obnoxious! If you must drive, please do it on a closed course. |
Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 12624037)
From the studies he's presented, you can't really come up with any conclusions about the safety of riding on a sidewalk vs on the streets. I agree with that.
I think it really just boils down to this: If you understand the risks of riding on the sidewalk and take steps to mitigate them, then it can be more safe than riding on the street. To me this means basically getting off the bike at every driveway and street crossing. There are other occasions when riding on the sidewalk is safer than being on the street. There's a sidewalk near my house that runs along the border of a golf course uninterrupted for about 1/2 mile. I would argue that taking that sidewalk instead of the street running parallel to it is safer, though neither are particularly dangerous. It's not safer for the pedestrians I may encounter and it's always possible that I may get hit by a stray golfball. There are streets that are particularly dangerous for various reasons for cyclists and there may or may not be sidewalks nearby that are safer. The problem with all the studies is that they don't take into consideration local conditions. I can ride all the way to my job on streets where the speed limit doesn't exceed 30 mph and where the drivers are used to sharing the roads with cyclists and pedestrians. It's not like that everywhere. Finally, one can talk all the precautions one wants to but it's impossible to foresee the unforeseen but it is accounted for in the aggregate of the data. Let's just say that you could have a cyclist who could prepare and anticipate every potential hazard and never have an issue. That cyclist would be no more representative than the uber safe stretch of sidewalk along a golf course that is never used by anyone except (say) you. Either way, those are outliers. Now, if the OP is referring to a particular stretch of road or sidewalk, then the generalization wouldn't apply (obviously) and this is meaningless. However, that wasn't the way this was presented and it still remains that all the data and studies point to the fact that sidewalks are multiple times more dangerous to a cyclist than are roadways. J. |
Originally Posted by JohnJ80
(Post 12624111)
It's always possible to find a particular sidewalk that is safer or a particular road that is more dangerous - those are really meaningless exceptions because because cherry picking examples is not representative of the whole. Mile for mile ridden, I think it's been pretty clearly shown in a number of studies, that a given cyclist is safer on a roadway than on a sidewalk and safer by a wide margin.
Finally, one can talk all the precautions one wants to but it's impossible to foresee the unforeseen but it is accounted for in the aggregate of the data. Let's just say that you could have a cyclist who could prepare and anticipate every potential hazard and never have an issue. That cyclist would be no more representative than the uber safe stretch of sidewalk along a golf course that is never used by anyone except (say) you. Either way, those are outliers. Now, if the OP is referring to a particular stretch of road or sidewalk, then the generalization wouldn't apply (obviously) and this is meaningless. However, that wasn't the way this was presented and it still remains that all the data and studies point to the fact that sidewalks are multiple times more dangerous to a cyclist than are roadways. J. The larger point I was trying to make is that whatever study national study you're looking at the aggregate data may lead to conclusions that don't apply to specific areas. There are places where the streets/highways are pretty hostile environments for cycling. Often there are no sidewalks in those areas anyway, but if there were, they very well may be safer than the street. So I'd say consider the stats, understand the risks (to you and your fellow humans), and make your own judgement. |
Elevated bikeways is an awesome idea.
This is not the first time the auto-centric consensus of bike forum members has disgusted me, and I'm sure it will not be the last. |
Originally Posted by DarthMuffin
(Post 12620494)
I think the biggest reason is pure economics. Bikes don't pay gas tax or license fees. If you want to pay a mileage fee and starting having $200/year tabs on your bike then maybe...
I would be surprised if even the most used bike paths around here carry 1% as many commuters in a given day as the road does right next to it with cars. |
Originally Posted by PeddlePhile
(Post 12623213)
It
51,000 bicyclists were injured in traffic in 2009 (Up sharply from 43,000 in 2007)
It is critical to not that this is 2009 data and at the time, the number of Bicycle Road related injuries was taking a VERY sharp increase...just as I had stated. No doubt, we will see that trend continued in the 2010 data when it is released. So, while you may argue, you have been proven incorrect by indisputable evidence.. However, if you still feel safe on the roads with your bicycle, by all means you should continue to take those chances. After all, it is ultimately your hide motorists will devour, not mine. Personally, I will make the smart choice and I will steer clear of the roads until such time as bike paths clear of the hazards of motorists are made available. By the way...have any members of this forum ever died while riding their bicycle on the roads? How about sidewalks? The 2010 data will be ready soon at which time there will be even more overwhelming evidence that riding on the roads is as dangerous as I have said. I will be watching for it's release and post it as soon as it is available. All the Best ! Be careful out there. :thumb: Cyclists in this forum have died. I don't know how many were on the sidewalk or road. The one I am most aware of was killed on a rural highway but I doubt there was a sidewalk he could have been using. You can't infer much from how many of each are on google. First of all, as mentioned some of those accidents occurred on highways where there was no sidewalk as an alternative and the only option for cyclists was the shoulder. Secondly you can't compare the gross numbers - you need to know the base rate or base mileage of each mode to calculate the relative risk. Way more people die crossing the street than skydiving so I guess walking is more is more dangerous than jumping out of a plane? |
Peddle,
I am not sure where your confrontational attitude is coming from. I think it is a bit of a stretch to imply that those commenting against riding on sidewalks are the ones that are acting recklessly. Your studies do not break down how many of those accidents happened on the road vs the sidewalk. The most dangerous part of riding on a sidewalk is crossing driveways. Like I said, drivers are not looking for a fast moving vehicle on a sidewalk, and compared to the average speed of a pedestrian, a bicycle is a fast moving vehicle. Drivers are used to pulling right out to the street and then stopping. A pedestrian can stop almost instantly, a bicycle needs time to stop, even that split second can mean you end up in the side of a car. Here are some statistics from the Pedestrian and Bicycling Information Center and Cornell: - Motorist turns left in front of cyclist: 42% of bicyclists were on sidewalk - Motorist turns left into oncoming cyclist: 15% of bicyclists were on sidewalk - Motorist turns right into bicyclist: 31% of bicyclists were on sidewalk - Motorist drives out of driveway/alley: 48% of bicyclists were on sidewalk - Motorist drives through intersection: 15% of bicyclists were on sidewalk - Bicyclist rode out intersection with signal: 24% of bicyclists were on sidewalk Here is another quote from this paper: Furthermore, the quality of the riding surface on most sidewalks is far inferior to the parallel roadway. The vast majority of bicycle crashes that end up with the bicyclist seeking medical attention do not involve a motor vehicle and happen because a rider falls after hitting an obstacle, sliding on gravel or leaves, or loses control. Riding on the sidewalk is fraught with the kind of dangers and obstacles that may increase the chances of that happening. By all means, ride on the sidewalk. All we are trying to do make you aware of the issues and problems of riding on a sidewalk. Good luck wherever you ride. As a bicyclist you need to be aware at all times, whether on a sidewalk, a street, or a separated bicycle path. :thumb: |
So, if there are no sidewalks, where does Peddle suggest I ride?
Right, on the elevated bikeways! I'll take my chances on the road, even though it's a miracle that I'm not dead or maimed by now.:twitchy: |
Ridiculing a god idea is a bad idea.
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In New Jersey some of the freeways have cars only access. This is for the comfort of motorists that don't want to mix in with big semi's. The percentage is well below 1% of roads so segregated. How many more pages is this thread going to expend thrashing an idea that is a complete non-starter. Cyclists don't even use the lanes that have been striped off for them preferring instead to cruise on the sidewalks. Or not to ride on surface streets at all. In my town most bicycles get from place to place strapped on top of or behind cars. They are then deployed on trails or parks. When cyclists take to the road its on weekends in packs of 5, 10 or 20 and a car sighting provokes anxiety up and down the peleton until it manages to squeeze past. BASE jumping is arguably dangerous. Cycling in traffic has risks but can be managed accident free for quite a long time. Can you say the same for snowboarding? The attitude most snowboarders, BASE jumpers, moto-cross riders and BMX half-pipe artists have towards their chosen activities should be noted. Get out there and commute. Or don't. Stop the hand wringing and sniveling. It's unseemly. We're better than that.
H |
Originally Posted by PeddlePhile
(Post 12623213)
It appears that many here want to consider their bikes equal to motor vehicles when the truth is they aren't.
Also, many here appear to be unaware of the dangers of modern driving. Although my argument may be opposed, no concrete evidence supports the opposition....instead, overwhelming evidence of the dangers of street riding are readily available. A quick Google search of bicyclists killed by motorists yields thousands of results whereas bicyclists killed riding sidewalks are far and few in between. Simply saying something is so does not make it so. Regardless of your beliefs, riding on the road is orders of magnitudes more dangerous and potentially fatal than riding on sidewalks. The problem is that many here feel that riding on sidewalks is the same as riding on the road and feel they can push the envelope and race past pedestrians disregarding them altogether. Sad. I can see why those voicing their opinion believe sidewalks are more dangerous. And that is because the person voicing the comment is likely to be a more dangerous and wreckless person overall. Also, facts support my argument that the roads are far more dangerous today not only for bicyclists, but for everyone on them including motorists. Although a British story, our societies are similar...and blames cyclist attitude as a major component...it's only a few years old vs opposing evidence http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...opularity.html Here's another...just happened..he was struck and killed by a motorists who never stopped.... http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2...oad-loved-ride How about a State Champion Bicyclist killed recently? http://glendora.patch.com/articles/f...-mountain-road There is an unlimited number of these on the Internet. Finally....here is the end of the argument. Data taken from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board which definitively supports my argument. Counter to some here that have stuck to their claim that most of the accidents involved intersections...here's proof that is incorrect. First, a summary of US statistics available from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration: 2009 Data
Please read the last line item in red several times for clarity. And some more statistics from 2008 data also released in 2010:
It is critical to not that this is 2009 data and at the time, the number of Bicycle Road related injuries was taking a VERY sharp increase...just as I had stated. No doubt, we will see that trend continued in the 2010 data when it is released. So, while you may argue, you have been proven incorrect by indisputable evidence.. However, if you still feel safe on the roads with your bicycle, by all means you should continue to take those chances. After all, it is ultimately your hide motorists will devour, not mine. Personally, I will make the smart choice and I will steer clear of the roads until such time as bike paths clear of the hazards of motorists are made available. By the way...have any members of this forum ever died while riding their bicycle on the roads? How about sidewalks? The 2010 data will be ready soon at which time there will be even more overwhelming evidence that riding on the roads is as dangerous as I have said. I will be watching for it's release and post it as soon as it is available. All the Best ! Be careful out there. :thumb: You know what? So was every one of us at some point. Get a good mirror, protective gear, learn how to ride and get out riding. You will not come over that fear by typing it into posts day after day. You will get over that fear by riding. Face your fears, man. Live a bit. And you know what else? Every one of us is going to die one day, it's a fact. I'd much rather go doing what I love doing, then being frightened of everything while curled up in the chair. No one got out alive from this thing called life. No one knows when their number will be called. So live every day to it's fullest, like it's your last. You can say what ever you like, and everyone has his/hers opinion, but for your own sake, loose that fear, your life will be much more enjoyable. And, please, stop the whining. |
Originally Posted by qmsdc15
(Post 12624475)
Elevated bikeways is an awesome idea.
This is not the first time the auto-centric consensus of bike forum members has disgusted me, and I'm sure it will not be the last. |
An elevated bikeway would be ridiculously cost prohibitive. I'm a big bike proponent, but I sure wouldn't want to pay for that.
Recently, I was involved in community input on a road project in my town. One of the options was a pedestrian/bike friendly bridge over the existing two lane road. Cost of that bridge was $1.2M and that was 4 years ago. The resulting design, of which one of the goals was traffic calming was to create 3 roundabouts and put wide shoulders on the roadway between them. Previously, there was no shoulder and this was a non-bike friendly roadway although it was bordered by a heavily used multi-use path. Now, the traffic goes slower, there are far less accidents, fast cyclists can safely ride on the road (shoulder) where they couldn't before and slower pedestrian traffic/slower cyclists/inline skaters etc... can use the associated multi use paths. The cost for this almost 1.5 miles of roadway was $1.2M - or about the same at the one bike friendly pedestrian bridge. I like the solution that was implemented much better and there are no stop lights either. On top of that, there wouldn't be the eyesore that an elevated bikeway would be (nor the climb up to it). It doesn't take much to make a roadway be quite bike friendly. Just putting wide shoulders in place and keeping the intersections under control (roundabouts are great) makes an immense difference. Riding on a heavily used MUP is just plain dangerous if you have any speed much over walking speed. You also get the bonus danger of having the intersection issue mentioned numerous times above. J. |
Originally Posted by JohnJ80
(Post 12627340)
An elevated bikeway would be ridiculously cost prohibitive. I'm a big bike proponent, but I sure wouldn't want to pay for that.
It doesn't take much to make a roadway be quite bike friendly. Just putting wide shoulders in place and keeping the intersections under control (roundabouts are great) makes an immense difference. Riding on a heavily used MUP is just plain dangerous if you have any speed much over walking speed. You also get the bonus danger of having the intersection issue mentioned numerous times above. J. It is significantly less expensive to create on-road bicycle facilities. Fortunately we finally have people at the Federal DOT that see bicycles as more than just recreation. That coupled with more and more states adopting Complete Streets legislation, we will begin to see more thought giving to designing and upgrading roads to take into account all road users. |
The late, great Ken Kifer discusses the dangers of sidewalk cycling and other matters of bicycle safety here: http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm.
Here's another good site: http://bicyclesafe.com/ By the laws of all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, bicyclists have as much right to be on the streets as cars; actually, more, for a motorist uses the streets because he is licensed by and registered with to do so--his use is a privlidge--whereas a cyclist is exercising his common-law and constitutional right to travel--his use is an inherent right. |
I would also point out that the last cyclist to be killed here in Charleston was riding on the sidewalk the wrong way on a one-way street when a car pulled out of a parking garage and creamed him. Had he been riding with traffic in the street, he'd probably be alive today.
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Well,...I don't really believe sidewalks are directional.
I also believe that if you ride on a sidewalk with reckless abandon,then you're setting yourself up for pain. Riding a bike on a sidewalk carries a responsibility to RESPECT others and ASSUME NOTHING with regards to right of way. As I said earlier, some people are more prone to be involved in painful situations...doesn't matter what they're doing. Ya know, you can argue this till the next millenia....... Facts are facts...where I am..it is extremely rare to see someone using a bike lane...for good reason. For every bike lane user there are probably 100 or more sidewalk riders. Sidewalk bike accidents are so rare I can't remember one in recent history. The truth is, riding on the roads is not safe. At least not here. Your area may vary. Did you happen to see that video of a woman in her SUV come around a curve doing about 90, cross into the oncoming lane and hit the bicyclist head on splitting him into pieces and sending him flying nearly 200ft? Had he been on the sidewalk he'd be alive today. If bike lanes are safe where you ride then go for it. Do that here and you won't live long. Let's consider ONLY one hazard. Elderly drivers. We have TONS here. The number of elderly drivers who can't see over the steering wheel, can't see past the steering wheel or are even sure what a steering wheel is is quite large. These people are NOT safe to be driving at all...much less within inches of what basically is a fast moving pedestrian. But that's just for starters. Factor in texting teens, road rage and drunken drivers and you have a bona fide recipe for disaster. That painted line indicating a bike lane offers absolutely ZERO protection. Perhaps if they were all guard railed it would be safer. ROADS are for MOTOR vehicles. And even then it's dangerous. It's not that I don't think bicyclists SHOULD have rights to use the road... it's just that the reality is that it's too dangerous. You continue to do what you feel is safe for you, and I'll do likewise. May your Angels ride with you. Cheers! |
What you believe and what the broad based data and research say are directly opposed. Do we go with your "belief" or do we go with what has been actually measured in pretty much every state in large studies? That's pretty much what it gets down to then, right?
J. |
Originally Posted by Leebo
(Post 12623339)
Where I ride, biking is illegal on the sidewalk. Boston, Cambridge and some other suburbs. Riding on a sidewalk, cars can't see you and don't expect you there. Its not a RIDE walk. Around here bike paths work good too. Where is UP TOWN JOE when you need him, you guys should talk.
As for the OP's claims... if you've spent any time in South Florida his/her viewpoint would make more sense. There, roads between developments are primarily 4 to 6 lane boulevards that only the bravest of souls would dare try to ride on, and drivers regularly travel at 60mph. As a fairly strong supporter of VC, even I would think twice about getting on a bike and riding like I do on my commute through Boston (or other, smaller northeast and west coast cities I have ridden in). Also, sidewalks there may as well be bike lanes as they are often wide, relatively un-obstructed, and since everyone lives in a gated community, driveways are pretty much non-existent. The problem that the OP has observed is not that bicycling on the roads is inherently dangerous, it is that the roads in South Florida are just plain dangerous (for all users). Given some proper urban planning and proper enforcement of traffic laws, it could be perfectly safe to ride (and these things would be a MUCH better solution than building an elevated bikeway, IMHO). |
Originally Posted by PeddlePhile
(Post 12639045)
Well,...I don't really believe sidewalks are directional.
I also believe that if you ride on a sidewalk with reckless abandon,then you're setting yourself up for pain. Riding a bike on a sidewalk carries a responsibility to RESPECT others and ASSUME NOTHING with regards to right of way. As I said earlier, some people are more prone to be involved in painful situations...doesn't matter what they're doing. Ya know, you can argue this till the next millenia....... Facts are facts...where I am..it is extremely rare to see someone using a bike lane...for good reason. For every bike lane user there are probably 100 or more sidewalk riders. Sidewalk bike accidents are so rare I can't remember one in recent history. The truth is, riding on the roads is not safe. At least not here. Your area may vary. Did you happen to see that video of a woman in her SUV come around a curve doing about 90, cross into the oncoming lane and hit the bicyclist head on splitting him into pieces and sending him flying nearly 200ft? Had he been on the sidewalk he'd be alive today. If bike lanes are safe where you ride then go for it. Do that here and you won't live long. Let's consider ONLY one hazard. Elderly drivers. We have TONS here. The number of elderly drivers who can't see over the steering wheel, can't see past the steering wheel or are even sure what a steering wheel is is quite large. These people are NOT safe to be driving at all...much less within inches of what basically is a fast moving pedestrian. But that's just for starters. Factor in texting teens, road rage and drunken drivers and you have a bona fide recipe for disaster. That painted line indicating a bike lane offers absolutely ZERO protection. Perhaps if they were all guard railed it would be safer. ROADS are for MOTOR vehicles. And even then it's dangerous. It's not that I don't think bicyclists SHOULD have rights to use the road... it's just that the reality is that it's too dangerous. You continue to do what you feel is safe for you, and I'll do likewise. May your Angels ride with you. Cheers! |
Originally Posted by rogerstg
(Post 12608280)
Because they get choked with pedestrians and strollers in no time, making it necessary to get back on the road.
+1 and don't forget Rollerbladers. |
And again we go in circles, a few of you trying to explain something to a person that just does not want to listen to the reason and logic, well what do you plan on accomplishing? He's stuck in his view and it won't change, so let him be. Fear is a powerful force, making some people to do away with all logic and reasoning, letting themselves be blinded by it. So let them be so, it's after all, their problem.
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Originally Posted by igknighted
(Post 12641106)
This is actually false (for most of Cambridge, at least). Sidewalk riding IS legal in most places (major pedestrian centers like Harvard Sq and Central Sq are off limits and signed as such), however bicyclists are limited in speed to that of the slowest pedestrians, and must always yield right of way to pedestrians. There's really nowhere in Cambridge that I would consider riding the sidewalks a good idea (except when avoiding some road construction), but it is wrong to say it is illegal.
As for the OP's claims... if you've spent any time in South Florida his/her viewpoint would make more sense. There, roads between developments are primarily 4 to 6 lane boulevards that only the bravest of souls would dare try to ride on, and drivers regularly travel at 60mph. As a fairly strong supporter of VC, even I would think twice about getting on a bike and riding like I do on my commute through Boston (or other, smaller northeast and west coast cities I have ridden in). Also, sidewalks there may as well be bike lanes as they are often wide, relatively un-obstructed, and since everyone lives in a gated community, driveways are pretty much non-existent. The problem that the OP has observed is not that bicycling on the roads is inherently dangerous, it is that the roads in South Florida are just plain dangerous (for all users). Given some proper urban planning and proper enforcement of traffic laws, it could be perfectly safe to ride (and these things would be a MUCH better solution than building an elevated bikeway, IMHO). j. |
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