JohnJ80

12mph when you hit a pedestrian is not exactly a soft landing. Besides that, it's really, really tough on the pedestrians and can easily send them away in an ambulance. You're not expected to be on a sidewalk and so it is dangerous for you and for pedestrians. At least stay on a bike path or Multi use path instead of a sidewalk.

There are stats about pedestrian/bike accidents on sidewalks, go have a look. IIRC, it's more dangerous for both for a cyclist to be on a sidewalk. Besides that, it's common sense.

I'll grant you that it's probably safer for you when you hit a pedestrian than it is for the pedestrian and that there may be less risks to you getting hit by something bigger than you are (i.e. car) but it is far from safe and you just don't belong there. Go read the ordinances of the city whose sidewalks on which you intend to ride.

The worst crashes I've had are on multi use paths, by far. A sidewalk would have to be worse.

J.

PeddlePhile

So John,

Wouldn't your own argument apply equally if not with greater meaning to bicyclist against motor vehicles?

Is it not far more likely that a 4000lb mass traveling at 60 mph will do more damage to a 200lb mass moving at even 40mph ?

I'm thinking you're envisioning bicyclists traveling on sidewalks at 40+ mph and I don't think sidewalks are very accommodating for high speed travel in the first place.

On the sidewalks, it's usually difficult to have space to reach speeds that great.

As I ride about, I see the VAST MAJORITY of bicyclists ON the sidewalk. NOT on the road. It's just insanely dangerous.

But again, I do believe that varies from location to location.

I have never, nor do I know anyone who has ever collided with a pedestrian on a sidewalk. 12mph is just not that fast. Plenty of margin for safety.

Perhaps your logic applies best to someone lacking courtesy skills and or respect for others? If you are doing 12mph and see pedestrians ahead, slow to 4 mph while passing. Anticipate their moves or alert them to your approach. But certainly do not rush with reckless abandon and disregard for their safety just because you are on a bicycle. Mutual respect...I think that's key.

I did see a group of young kids in a Mustang GT recently swerve toward a bicyclist on a bike path and apparently they felt it was humorous.
There are too many like that behind the wheel. It is dangerous enough when you are on the road protected by steel surrounding you...

If you really believe that painted line offers protection....wow.

JohnJ80

Duh.

But there is almost certainly less risk of a collision although on a road with proper shoulders (wide) and low traffic I'd say that probability is probably orders of magnitude smaller. My point is that there is far less risk of a collision than on a sidewalk. Sidewalks are much narrower than bike paths or multi use paths and there is no expectation of a fast moving (12mph is really fast to a pedestrian) traffic on a sidewalk so no precautions are taken.

Finally, I'm not going to argue that which is almost always illegal in the first place. If your city allows fast moving cyclists on a sidewalk, go take your risks at collisions and make sure your insurance is paid up and you have good coverage. You get in a collision with a pedestrian especially on a sidewalk and I can't imagine you'd win that one even in a month of Sundays. And then let's hope you don't get hurt too.

J.

PeddlePhile

Ok.

Thanks for your opinions.

I've been sidewalk riding here for 10 years. Often right past Police.
So they obviously don't enforce that law here. When I get a ticket I'll advise.
And I'll gladly take it and continue on the sidewalk as there is no way in a year of Sundays I'd ride on the street with today's drivers.
I think we also have a vastly different view of sidewalks. Usually there are very few pedestrians on the sidewalks.
Maybe the sidewalks where you commute have much heavier pedestrian traffic?

Hey, have a look at this.... it's about malicious things motorists do to bicyclists for fun...I take it you've heard of the "Door-Prize" move?

https://bikeunion.to/clipping/deadly-...-death-cyclist

JohnJ80

I've been riding seriously for 30 years. The only wrecks I've have been on bike paths/multi use paths. Much safer on the roads.

J.

JohnJ80

Did a quick google search. It is much more dangerous to ride on sidewalk than on the road. Surprising me was the inference from the data that as a bike comes out of a sidewalk in an intersection crossing, that is not where a car is looking to see a bike. It apparently even matters if you are riding in the direction of traffic or against traffic on the sidewalk.

This study shows that riding on the sidewalk vs roadway is 1.8x more dangerous.

"Bicyclists on a sidewalk or bicycle path incur greater risk than those on the roadway (on aver age 1.8 times as great), most likely because of blind conflicts at intersections. Wrong-way sidewalk bicyclists are at even greater risk, and sidewalk bicycling appears to increase the inci dence of wrong-way travel."

This study also shows the same thing. The relative danger index of riding on the sidewalk is 16.34 compared to less than one for roads. In fact, this study shows that it is 24.8 times more dangerous on a sidewalk than it is on a major road without biking facilities (bike lanes etc..).

"The evidence that bicycling on sidewalks and similar facilities is more hazardous than bicycling on streets is overwhelming."

Thanks for providing the impetus to look this up. Backs up my experience, I guess. You may feel "1000%" safer, but the truth is quite different.

J.

Caspar_s

Do you drive? The whole argument of "not riding because the roads are dangerous" is crazy because YOU'RE the ones driving! everyone always complains about the other drivers. Well, they're saying exactly the same thing about you.

Also if you drive, pay attention when you come to an intersection - you are NOT looking at the sidewalk, you're looking at the traffic, and bikes in the road are traffic. Most cars don't even stop behind the sidewalk to look in the first place, and stop at the road, blocking the sidewalk. My wife and I ride on the sidewalks carefully when we're not sure where we're going, but then quite often we're at almost walking speed anyway. In our home town it's always on the road whether there is a bike lane or not. It does depend a lot on where you are riding though.

A lot of US cities just don't seem to be set up for anything but a car. Sub-divisions that are completely separated from each other, joined together by high speed arterials with no shoulders or bike lanes or sometimes even sidewalks. I could ride 60km to Toronto through sub-divisions hardly ever leaving 40km/hr roads.

cooker

Here in the commuter forum, the majority of participants probably don't fit either category. I ride to work in work clothes.

I've been knocked down by a cyclist when I was a pedestrian.

cooker

Since that item is from Toronto (quite near my home, actually) here are a couple more from around the same time:

https://www.thestar.com/article/678257
Woman, 56, dies after sidewalk crash with cyclist

https://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local.../?hub=CP24Home
Cyclist suffers life-threatening injuries after car collision
A 44-year-old cyclist is in hospital with life-threatening injuries after being struck by a car at the southern entrance of Yorkdale Mall on Friday evening.
The man was travelling southbound on a sidewalk of Dufferin Street

JohnJ80

Well? After post #31, now what say you?

J.

dolanp

It also really matters whether you are urban, suburban, or rural. In an urban setting the street probably makes the most sense. In suburbia (at least where I live), along busy roads that are main arteries, nobody walks anywhere and the sidewalks are almost always empty. If somebody chooses to use a sidewalk to ride on they should consider themselves like a pedestrian. If I ever do this, I stop everywhere a pedestrian would stop and always use crosswalks to cross the street. I don't bolt down a sidewalk at 20mph and blaze across intersections.

Standalone 

Ugh. Who wants to climb a 20 foot steep hill just to get on a bikeway? I'll be down on the street, thank you.

Besides, anything either wide enough to be safe or with side fences and walls high enough to be safe would look horrendous.

Another thought-- when I imagine an elevated bikeway along, say, I-95, I can almost smell the exhaust...

jamesdenver

was about to write the same thing...

PeddlePhile

John,

Commendable effort...however, I did do a search.

I think studies are usually created when "documentation" is needed to prove a point one way or the other. The current Administration can produce volumes on the benefits of ALL policies enacted since 2008 by the current Administration. Do you believe all of them?

I also think that most sidewalk accidents are caused by people trying to treat the sidewalk as a roadway. There are people who are dangerous whether they are on foot or behind the wheel.
You see them every day.

Also, as stated, it depends a lot on where you ride. One set of experiences does not fit all. Your area may be safer than many others and hence your beliefs....and vice versa.

Finally, and this is paramount, Your study is so dated it really shouldn't be relied on any longer. ( I got a laugh out of the date of the study) :-) C'mon. Is that the best you have?

Back when that study was done texting was just getting started and some folks were still using pagers. This is what I mean about studies...they are rarely worth the paper they are written on and opposing studies are usually just as accurate....or inaccurate. I tend to find the National Transportation Safety Board studies a bit more reliable. Show me one from them less than 3 years old and I'll reconsider ;-)

The nation as a whole has changed dramatically in the last 10 -11 years. Find an up to date study from a reliable source and perhaps it will be more believable.

So, yes, you have provided me with evidence that I am probably more correct that I thought I was as your evidence is no longer relevant and it suggests that the few involved in sidewalk accidents were likely to be irresponsible types no matter where they were...and their unfortunate victims of course.

Can you find some useful, current data? Thanks for doing research just the same.

So, it appears that if you discount the people who ride sidewalks recklessly (probably because they are simply not responsible and respectful of others), then it still seems sidewalks
are much safer than the roads after all. On or off the road, there will always be dangerous drivers and riders. The stories you read of accidents are often evidence of natural selection doing it's job. Personally, if I couldn't avoid one of these types, I would MUCH rather be hit by their bicycle than their 5000lb Dodge Ram Hemi Pick-up (although I like those trucks). Who could argue that ?

Cheers !

PeddlePhile

lmao

Well...you must think about it a bit....I would prefer a 30ft hill.

1). It would keep lazy pedestrians off as the fat and lazy probably wouldn't be able to make the climb....leaving more room for me and my bike.

2). I would LOVE the climb. The whole idea of bicycling after all is "exercise"...isn't it ?

Surely a small hill doesn't scare you

scroca

I propose flying bicycles. We can call them flycycles.

PeddlePhile

You're silly

Scared of exercise?
Does your bike have one of those 2 stroke motors on it

Actually, it just takes an architect with skill. Take a look at the Miami, Florida Yacht Marina. They have elevated sidewalks and they're quite attractive yet extremely simple.

lol. Maybe they wouldn't have to be right on top of I-95 ? But seriously, I doubt that would be an issue even if they were. If that were a concern, I believe people would be ill from driving the Interstates in the cars right?

PeddlePhile

If only

tacojohn

Forget studies, look at physics. A cyclist has much more in common with a car when it comes to the physics of stopping, starting, and changing direction than a pedestrian. A car must haul itself down from speed over a long distance, accelerates relatively slowly to top speed, and generally must slow down to make most turns. A person on foot can stop almost instantaneously, reaches top speed from a standing start almost immediately, and can change directions 90 degrees at full speed with no warning. A bicycle is much closer to a car in all three respects than a pedestrian.

To say you're going to act like a pedestrian when riding on the sidewalk is against the laws of physics. You're riding a hard and sometimes weighty piece of equipment that requires a good deal of forward momentum to remain balanced. It is impossible to ride like a pedestrian walks. Even you if put the seat down and set both feet on the ground and walk, you are still not a pedestrian.

You should ride your bike on the road or path that best supports your ability to handle the bike, given all those physical limitations. In some cases that may be a wide sidewalk with relatively little pedestrian traffic. In some cases that's a road. And in some cases, that requires a path with only bikes on it. But to say you're going to be like a pedestrian on the sidewalk is much more unlikely than saying you're going to be like a car on the road.

tjspiel

I must be defective. I can't do any of those things.

I agree though that somebody walking is more maneuverable than somebody on a bike. Yes, I can go really slow through intersections from a sidewalk while on a bike, but if you're going to do that, you might as well just walk. On the other hand, people on the sidewalk often seem oblivious to what's going on around them. To me that is another good reason to avoid riding on sidewalks.

PeddlePhile: I'm not sure why "texting" invalidates the study. Somebody who's not paying attention is more likely to hit a cyclist crossing at an intersection just as they are more likely to hit a cyclist on the street itself.

himespau 

The other (and much more dangerous to you) threat when it comes to riding on the sidewalk is cars. Yup, you read that right, I said cars. Cars aren't expecting fast moving (even 10-12 mph is fast compared to a pedestrian) bicycles. So they may stop at an intersection and look at what may come in the crosswalk, turn and look the other way, and then pull out. Meanwhile you came from the first direction they looked and have pulled into the crosswalk. They didn't expect you to come that fast and now you're under their tires. Same thing with cars backing out of driveways. The drivers typically only look the short distance a pedestrian would be that could get behind them and don't look the further distance you'd be on your bike that could still result in you getting behind them. Again, you're hit. Being out on the road where you're expected is the safest place to be.

cooker

As I said above, I have also mused on the possibilities of elevated bike paths. I work in a fairly dense downtown area and live in an older inner suburb, about 5 miles from work. I have approximately 30 stop signs and 8 traffic lights on my way to work, and an uninterrupted, elevated bikeway would probably make my commute easier. There would be extra effort riding up a ramp to the bikeway, but that would be offset by the exercise saving of not having to start and stop so much.

Even so, I see the proposal as overall negative. There is no chance of a bikeway being built above every street, so at best perhaps a two thirds of my commute could be elevated and the rest would have to be at grade.

If the bikeway was successfull, it might become very slow and congested, as cycling is very popular in this city, so people would still have to overflow onto parallel surface routes if they didn't want to contend with crowding. As well the bikeway would attract the least experienced, slowest riders.

If the bikeway had a lot of access points, then riders would have to deal with the inconvenience of continually merging traffic. If it didn't have a lot of access points, then people would still have to ride some distance at street level to get to destinations between the on and off ramps.

There's a justifiable paranoia among some cycling groups, best exemplified by the controversial author John Forester, that the provision of alternate facilities for bikes will lead to us being outlawed on the streets. I don't want that. I want to go wherever I want to go - I don't want to be limited to going only where there is a bikeway, or doing laps in a park.

Failing the provision of a separate elevated bikeway, the street is a far better option for me than the sidewalk. I have to get through almost 40 intersections, and at each of them, I'm safer riding through already on the street, than riding into the street from the sidewalk. I have to cross the mouths of hundreds of driveways - residential and business - and at each of them I am safer riding on the street than on the sidewalk. This is a city where pedestrians are fairly common, so providing them with the proper courtesy of dropping to near their speed would more than double my commute time. Of course, your situation may differ, but it may also be the case that sidewalk riding gives you a false sense of safety since you haven't factored in the increased risks you face at intersections.

Peddlephile, I'm not sure if you're a commuter and if you are proposing the bikeways for commuters, as you seem to focus on other issues like exercise.

cooker

The only other thing I should add PeddlePhile, is that it's pretty common in forums like this for a new member to drop in and float what they think is a great idea, and then find it trashed by the other members. Often it's because the topice has been hashed to death in the past. Don't take it personally!

JohnJ80

You're serious? So you think that in a decade sidewalk riding has gotten more than 25X safer? Despite higher population density? From what I can tell, those studies pretty much settled the question. Smaller studies since continue to confirm the same facts over and over.

How about you find a study that shows that sidewalk riding is much, much safer instead? That ought to be quite interesting. Nothing I've found shows it to be safe - all multiple times more dangerous.

Or is it you just want to ride on the sidewalk and that's the end of it?

J.

merkong

C'mon, man up and get on the road for pete's sake.