chipcom 

Can you read? Did you even read my question? I asked how the fact that DI2 was used by the podium of the TDF was relevant to commuting. It had nothing to do with price, and obviously the reliability the equipment in the TDF, where it is maintained by staffs of wrenches and rarely sees any really extreme weather, is hardly relevant to commuting.

Then you go off on this goofy flat-earther schtick - I've been either working with or developing on the bleeding edge of technology for most of my life...so don't give me that tired old horsepucky and expect me to take you seriously. It's got nothing do do with technophobia and everything to do with showing me some actual facts that are relevant to my purposes and the subject matter of this forum, which is commuting. Luckily, others managed to actually answer the question, so your posturing is as irrelevant to me as DI2 in the TDF.

chipcom 

It's only my back-up commuter....my primary commuter is one of those darned drop-bar bikes you hate almost as much as Buckeyes!

atariwhizkid

If you forget to charge the battery in one of these systems, what happens? Are you essentially stuck in whatever gear you left off in before the battery died, or is their a manual backup plan of some sort?

Electronic shifting seems to be a logical evolution for drivetrain technology. But I can't see it adding anything other than a very marginal efficiency increase for non-racers at the moment.

I-Like-To-Bike

No hate involved, only no love.

At least the Buckeyes make for an interesting and challenging opponent for the Mighty Lions.

JohnJ80

Read the other half of my post. It won't be more expensive in a bit. I understand it can be hard to connect two concepts and see how they fit together.

J.

chipcom 

Batteries are another issue when it comes to winter commuting. I don't mind carrying a spare, but how easy is it to swap out in the dark, on the road, when you're wearing gloves and the bike is covered with crap?

chipcom 

at least they used to, at this point. We'll see what we end up with this year.

chipcom 

Yeah, it will soon be as cheap as the current Ultegra (which is of course the standard for commuters everywhere - not), right?

JohnJ80

Put your thinking cap on. Yes, I know that can be tricky. But I know you can do it!

I don't know how to make it much simpler for you.

Bluff and bluster doesn't pass for much else other than being cranky.

J.

JohnJ80

Ok, so the technology drops in price by a factor of 2 and that's not significant? Given the volumes are pretty low already, this will drop like a stone going forward. Making these motors and electronics is all a function of economies of scale and they are not even to the leading edge of that curve yet. So, yes, it will get a lot cheaper and I'd guess pretty quickly.

Please let us know your experience electronics manufacturing and design.

J.

JohnJ80

Oh, that's right. Forgot about that one. That's the most common case that will kill it as a technology. The masses (that drive the volume) are all vexed with problems like this.

I forgot too how it's impossible to use batteries and electronics in the cold.

J.

atariwhizkid

The masses of people that might use electronic shifting for commuting (this is the commuting forum, after all), will not want to be carrying multiple batteries in the cold weather. But, I don't think changing a battery in the cold is a big deal.

Are dynohubs powerful enough to charge these systems? It seems like it could be used in the same way as an alternator is used in a car. Then the battery could simply be a backup.

chipcom 

Then you might want to quit trying to use bluff and bluster there, cupcake.

alan s 

A lot of technology of high-end racing bikes eventually makes it into the mainstream. However, most commuters use what is reliable, durable and affordable.

Steel or aluminum frames, 7/8/9 speed, get you there almost as fast, more reliably and far less expensively than lightweight race bike components. I could see buying electronic shifters for my road racing bike some day, but it is highly unlikely I would ever get this for a commuter bike. Same goes for carbon fiber (frame, wheels, fork, stem and handlebars), 11-speed drivetrain, tubular whelsets, etc. These are all great for racing, but not appropriate for commuting. Electronic shifting falls into this category.

chipcom 

You're dodging again. Who cares if the price drops by a factor of 2 when the result is still 3 times the price of what is acceptable for my purposes now? So instead of asking me to post my resume (which may embarrass you), how about you provide some meat to your boasts? When will the price be comparable to the current Ultegra? Tiagra? Sora? Any idiot can boast of "cheaper and quite soon", hey guess what, the price of gas will rise or fall quite soon too! Call me Svengali, I guess.

chipcom 

There you go again, off the deep end of extreme wackiness. I'm starting to wonder if you actually commute, or if you have done so in an actual winter. Nobody said anything about impossible...it's not impossible to patch a flat...yet that doesn't prevent us from being concerned about the puncture resistance of a tube/tire combo for commuting, or carrying a spare tube and tools, does it?

So why not answer the question. Someone else already alluded to the low battery indicator. Fine. What type of battery is it? What are the battery's characteristics when the temps get below freezing? sub-zero? How resistant is the battery housing and its location to rain, sleet, snow, slush, grit and salt? Is changing the battery something that will require removal of gloves or use of tools? In a nutshell, has anyone tested this in real-world winter commuting conditions? Of course they haven't, otherwise you would be providing citations rather than bulltwinkle dodges.

These are common questions in this and the winter forums concerning things like lights and computers...I don't understand why they are so offensive to you concerning an electronic drive train.

chipcom 

apparently that makes you a flat-earther

mechBgon

1. Di2 is wired, unless you count the wireless Flight Deck sensors (optional).

2. In my experience, digital wireless is not affected by the problems that plague analog wireless (HID/LED headlights jamming computers, etc).

3. Di2 has been in use for years. If there were a problem, I think we'd know by now.

4. Di2 is used in cyclocross racing, which is about as messy as you can get. Snow, mud, you name it.


If you can forget to charge the battery for 3-4 months straight, then it will 1. begin flashing a warning light at you, and 2. the front derailleur will shut down, leaving the rear operational for several hundred more shifts. This isn't like your light system where you need to charge it every two days.

Extremely easy, you could do it while holding your breath. Pull the old battery off, stick the new one on, done. Not that you're likely to need a spare, unless you're riding over 1000 miles in one go The entire system is waterproofed. I wouldn't recommend operating the derailleurs underwater, but the wiring and battery is first-class. One popular location for the battery is under the BB, facing non-stop front-tire spray, and it handles that fine.

JohnJ80

One of the big pushes (and successful) has been in making powerful, low power motors. It's a big reason behind the explosion in power tools and all sorts of other consumer products (like derailleurs). The fact that you can ride 1000 miles between charges is indicative of the first level of just this technology. In fact, that would probably cover the vast majority of most consumer usage on an annual basis (including commuters). I would guess that it's pretty likely that you'll soon see batteries integrated into the frame or derailleur housing that you change once a year like you do your bike computer battery.

J.

JohnJ80

I have a 15-20 mile commute. I live in MN where we know a little bit about cold and winter. I ride most all winter (when I'm not skiing) but I only do the commute through December (just because year end and Q1 make it difficult at work). This may surprise you, but the number of cyclists that I see on the road in those winter months drops exponentially.

I find more than enough evidence to support that it is reliable in tough conditions. The *last* condition I'm worried about is biking in super cold conditions simply because that sort of gets out there into the six sigma sorts of problems. It's right up there, from a mass market perspective, of being attacked in your home by AQ terrorists.

Most of these have been answered here and elsewhere.

I'm not worried about pretty much any rechargeable battery technology providing adequate power over the time of a ride (even many rides). We use NiCd, Li-ion and Nimh batteries in ski racing for drilling holes in the snow for gates. It's a big 1" to 1.25" 2' long drill bit on a standard DeWalt drill and they last for hours even when cold soaked for hours at -20F. The piece is that these little motors use so little power for what they do that batteries, even when reduced to 40% of their capacity are still going to last for a very, very long time.

J.

Mr IGH

Love the idea that drilling snow is work for a Dewalt drill. Next time you cold soak that drill, try driving a drywall screw into a dried 2x4, you'll learn a little about "work" as it related to what a NiMH battery can do when it's below 40*F. Sorry if year-round riding is considered as unlikely as getting killed by terrorists, I guess that's why I had to change my Alfine from the factory lube to oil so it would work well below 0*F....

chipcom 

Thanks old friend, this is the kind of answer I can always depend on you to provide.

Perhaps by the time I am ready to either build a new commuter or rebuild the drive train, the price of this stuff might be down to a point where it makes economic sense to try it out...in other words, on par, price-wise with Tiagra, anything more expensive simply makes no sense for my application. Of course I may try it on my road bike much sooner.

chipcom 

Come on, John, you of all people should know better. You're in a bike forum full of bike weenies...mass market is the wrong market to be targeting. We are the exceptions, the enthusiasts, the crazy SOBs that DO ride in extreme conditions - just cuz we can. If I didn't, why would I bother asking questions concerning those kind of conditions? Oh I forgot, I'm a flat-earther.

chipcom 

This past winter I ate my words about not having any problems with my Alfine with the factory lube. I hate the taste of cold hard fail.

Mr IGH

The "graceful shutdown" only works for an in-spec battery (ie: new). Once the battery sits around all winter without use or is subjected to temps under 45*F the graceful shutdown will be a couple shifts. WHen the battery is dead does the di2 system default to inside front chainring and outside cassette cog? That'll be a fun gear to ride home in.