vwhammer

Well I bought me an old frame today to turn into my commuter rig.
I have been tossing around the idea of buying one of the 11 speed Shimano Alfine internal geared set ups.
As some of you may know they are not cheap.

For this price I could get a Chris King (or other quality) rear hub a decent cassette and rear deraillure.

So my question is what is the right thing to do?

I like the idea of the IGH for all weather riding but the traditional hubs lightweight is also appealing.

Anyone with any experience have any input here?

MijnWraak

I've been wanting a belt drive bike for awhile, but I just cant justify the cost. I have had very very very little maintenance done on my derailer once it's properly setup, and chain lubing is very infrequent with Chain-L. I also love having 2+ front chainrings for downhill/trailer use.

If it's the same price, go with the IGH, but I suspect it'd be significantly cheaper to get a derailer setup.

MichaelW

I find the 8 speed Alfine OK for gently rolling terrian. I do spin out on the steepest decsnets but it doesnt bother me.
Alfine IHG gives you hassle-free riding with minimal maintenance; ideal for a utility bike in cold, rainy, dark winters.
When comparing the price you also have to add in front and rear mech and shifters. It soon adds up.

gear

I removed an external derailure setup and installed a Shimano 11 speed IGH, so this is what the difference was: I really don't touch anything anymore in fact I probably should lube the chain more than I do but the frame of mind is so "don't bother with it" that I don't.
I worry about getting a rear flat, I never worry about flats on other tires as they are so easy to fix but the IGH tire will be a bear when it flats.
The bikes ride quality has suffered, it is heavy when it used to be light feeling on the other hand it feels like it will bull through anything which is what I wanted for MY commuter bike.
It really wasn't that much more expensive than an external derailure especially compared to the German guy's IGH
The Shimano has worked flawlessly, but so did my external derailure.
How you choose to spend your money is up to you alone but this is what I found when I did it. There were plusses and minuses.

vwhammer

Ok after doing a little math, this is what I have so far.

The price for either setup will be about the same.
I could make the external set up a little cheaper if I went with a quality stuff and not top of the line stuff.

So for conversations sake lets just say it will be the same price.

However the weight is a different issue.

By my math the IGH will weigh in at nearly 1.5lbs (669g) more than the external set up.

Please allow me to think out loud.
IGH Pros:
Nearly maintenance free
Good for adverse weather riding
Cleaner look to the bike (this one is sort of a stretch)

IGH cons:
Weight
Difficult tire repairs

Naturally the pros and cons of the traditional rear set up are the opposite of the pros and cons of the IGH so I will not bother to list those.

I guess I need to determine how important all this is to me.

I do not want to worry about my gear changes when things get all iced up this winter. Point IGH
I do like the cleaner look of the IGH. Point IGH
1.5 lbs is a serious amount of weight to add to a bike. Point traditional set up
I use some pretty punchure resistant tires so flats and therefor flat repair don't really concern me too much. TIE?
Budget may become an issue if I want to get this thing ridable ASAP. Point traditional set up.

Well crap it came out dead even.
It looks like I have some thinking to do.

Sixty Fiver

For cold, wet, snowy, icy winter riding the IGH is the best choice... I run a much simpler Sturmey Archer 3 speed with a dual drive so it does have a derailleur and with an oil lubricated hub it purrs along at temperatures where other bikes might freeze solid.

My all season commuter and utility bike is just as at home in the rain as again, the IGH is unaffected by water and the simple dual drive stays very clean, having full fenders with extensions helps with this a great deal.

If the derailleur was to fail in the winter I would simply be reduced to riding a 3 speed and not a 6 speed and worrying about a few pounds of extra weight on a commuter is needless... my hub also has a built in generator and think my back wheel weighs 8 pounds with it's winter tyre.

I-Like-To-Bike

Difficult? For whom, incompetent clods? What is difficult, carrying a 6" adjustable or 15mm wrench in a tool kit?

vwhammer

Ok perhaps difficult was not the right word choice.

However there is no denying that it is going to be harder to change a flat than it would be on a quick release hub with no shift cable to mess with.

MijnWraak

I live in about the same climate as you, and didn't have a single problem with my mid-range old derailer setup through last winter. No icing up, no gears that were stuck, nothing. I only replaced the freewheel because it was getting sharktoothed. You can replace that pro with "can shift when not moving" though.

jr59

You are worried about 1.5 lbs?
On a commuter bike? REALLY?

It really boils down to what ever you want.
Let us not forget that The wear of your freewheel,
and the shift when not moving.

I have both, I enjoy both, so I guess I'm not much help.

gear

With my external derailure bike I take 4:40 to fix a flat, pump up the tire and be on my way.
Now to change a tube on my IGH will take considerably longer, not just because I need to unscrew a nut instead of flipping a lever. But because I need to disconnect (then reconnect) the cable to the shifter otherwise I will not be able to remove and replace the tube. So please don't minimize the difference between the two situations. An IHG is more difficult for flat fixing.

Pedaleur

If you can find the flat (for example, if there is a piece of glass), you can "patch in place" without removing the wheel. But in general, fixing flats on an IGH is more of a pain.

Both of these points are over-rated. But that doesn't break the deadlock, now, does it?

tjspiel

I just put an IGH on my winter bike. Some winters I've had few problems with the derailleur setup and other winters it seemed like something was frozen every few days. Last winter was probably the worst. even after a "good" winter though, the jockey wheels on the derailleur needed to be taken apart and given a serious cleaning before they'd spin decent again. The pivots on both derailleurs needed to be cleaned up too.

I'm not sure why some folks have problems with derailleurs in winter and others don't but it is the major reason I've put an IGH on my bike. Mine is just an 8 speed so the gears aren't as closely spaced as I'd like and the range could be better. An 11 speed might really minimize those issues, but I can't say for sure. The 8 speed is more than adequate for my commute though.

Aside from protecting the gears from the elements there are other nice aspects to IGHs. There's only one shifter and you can shift while the bike is not in motion. I like that I can use a single speed chain since I can get cheap rust-resistant versions.

As far as the weight issues goes, I messed up. I was going to weigh the bike before and after the conversion but I lost the "pre" weights. I also did some performance tests prior to the conversion. I do have that information but I haven't done a "post" test yet since I wanted to give the IGH a chance to break in. One note about the weight issue is that while I don't think the overall weight is that much more, it does move the weight towards the back of the bike. For example, I was able to get rid of two steel chainrings, the front derailleur, and one shift cable as well as lower the overall weight of the shifter/brake lever combos. But the IGH itself is pretty heavy.

My overall thoughts on the matter are probably best summed up this way: I like having a bike with an IGH but I would never put one on my "fast" bike.

I-Like-To-Bike

If you consider "considerably longer" about 60 seconds ( I don't feel the need to time my pit stops) additional for loosening /tightening two nuts and the disconnect/connect of the shifter cable, then you are right.

Is taking an extra 60 seconds every now and then all that difficult or that important on a commute? Do you stop for bathroom breaks if nature calls while commuting or do you do it TDF style in order to save 60+ seconds. Wearing bibs while commuting would introduce more difficulty and potential time loss than an IGH.

BTW are you always in a commuter race where you run a stop watch for your pit stop?

tjspiel

We live on a small city lot and the house wasn't centered on it. This was done to make room for an addition since it's a small house. One of the previous owners decided they wanted space for 3 cars in the driveway behind the house so what was left for a back "back yard" was this 12 ft strip of grass on one side of the driveway. On the other side of the house was a much bigger open area so we decided to unite the whole thing by removing the existing fence that was around the 12 foot strip and put a new fence around the whole back portion of our property. We included a gate to allow cars in and out of our driveway. It made a huge difference. The neighborhood kids love to come play in our seemingly large back yard. It's been great for our dog too.

What does this have to do with IGHs and flats? Even though getting out of the car to open the gate takes less than a minute it often seems like a huge PITA, especially when you're in a hurry. In the end does it make that much difference? Of course not, but when you're in a hurry any delay is an annoyance.

I-Like-To-Bike

Do you really change out or patch the tube in the rear wheel of your commuting bike every day, at least twice a day? If not, I hardly see the connection between the two activities. I change out or patch tubes while on the road about once a decade (approx 5,000 miles/year) since I began using using Schwalbe Marathons.

I would suggest that those having such difficulty and a pain in rear from an extra 60 seconds spent on changing flat tires, that they would discount the use of an IGH, consider buying better tires.

Any delay is an annoyance? Ya mean like any extra gram of weight is a drag on efficiency and must be eliminated from a commuter bike too?

fietsbob

Look at the repeat cost of consumables, wear and tear on all the chains and cassettes
and eventually multiple chainrings that you will be replacing ..

as opposed to 1 wider cog, thicker chain and single chainring.
all of which will have a longer lifespan than the thinner 9>10>11. etc speed derailleur stuff
getting ever more costly as the wear life goes down.


or heck mix them up, Sturmey , and SRAM, dual drive
Both combine a cassette free-hub driver,
and a 3 speed IGH instead of a triple crank.

So you can drop from the high range to low range at the stoplight, while stopped.
and start out in an easier gear..

gear

So it only takes you a minute to disconnect and reconnect your shifter cable and loosen the nuts for your real axel, well thats about the time it takes me top do it too IN MY LIVING ROOM. Try it in the dark on the side of the road when it is really, really cold. Because those are the real world conditions that the OP might be doing this procedure in.

Yes I like to keep my commute travel time to a minimum, because I like to sleep. I guess I'm just weird that way.

And yes, in fact I did time a couple of tire changes to try and get my procedure for this down to the absolute minimum, as standing on the side of the road (in any conditions) and doing this is a stone cold drag. Sorry if I have offended you in any way, but I feel that when someone asks about the pros and cons of an IGH with the intent of doing this, I think they want real answers so they can make an informed decision, not bunk.

I-Like-To-Bike

I agree in not posting bunk; hence my questioning those who wail about the difficulty of loosening and tightening a few nuts on an axle. If it is too dark to do that simple job, it is too dark to find the cause of the flat as well as too dark to see if the new/repaired tube is installed properly. Better tires is the answer if the chore of changing tubes is such a stone cold drag that it must be kept at an absolute minimum on a commuting bike. Advising that important purchasing decisions should be based on occasionally saving 60 seconds on a commute to preserve crucial sleep time? Sounds like bunk to me.

I-Like-To-Bike

Think of all the lost sleep while making those replacements!

tjspiel

Whether it's every day or once every 6 months, when I'm running late, any additional time it takes just adds to the stress. Like you I don't have flats all that often, but what that means is that it won't take me an extra 60 seconds, it would probably add several minutes because I won't remember exactly how you're supposed to get Shimano's shift cable off. There's no guarantee that'll be sunny and 70 degrees either. It might be dark and bitterly cold making it just that much more of a hassle.

In spite of that I've chosen an IGH for my winter bike anyway but I think you're minimizing a legitimate concern if one is on the fence over whether or not to choose an IGH.


It may not bother you but it may bother somebody else depending on the circumstances.

fietsbob

In the dark and foul winter weather, having the range of ratios
following the linear sequence of an IGH, is , I found, superior..
no pattern sequence has to be seen to be used for the double shift of front and rear
to move thru the whole range of ratios..


+ flat IGH cogs can be flipped over and then double the wear-life.

tjspiel

That's true but if an IGH does go bad, and they do on occasion, it's a big expense. But for the very reasons you mentioned, I never intended to upgrade my winter bike beyond an 8 speed rear. I don't think I've ever replaced a worn chain ring, but I tend to swap parts or bikes for other reasons.

vwhammer

OK I get it.
It is no that much harder to fix a flat on an IGH equipped bike.
At this point I don't care that it is anymore difficult.
I have decided that I can deal with it.

I am also running the Schwalbe Marathons and oddly enough got a flat on my way home the very first day I rode with them.

Flats suck and any amount of time it takes to stop and fix it is just an annoyance.

Anyway back on track.
I think I have decided that I am going to run the IGH.
It just seems to have enough of what I am looking for that I can overlook the seemingly trivial cons.

wolfchild

I don't get it ? People who complain about having to carry a 15mm wrench and loosen two nuts to remove a wheel. All of my SS/FG wheelsets have nutted axles, and I prefer them to QR. In fact I convert my front shimano QR hubs to solid nutted axles. What's next a self releasing and self tightening electronic axles ?