Hmmmmmmmm... I don't live in NYC anymore but I was born and raised there and left not that long ago. I am still running red lights. I can't count the number of Brooklyn's red lights I've run. Millions? Fewer Manhattan lights... maybe a few hundred thousand. In all that time I never actually saw any other cyclist waiting for a light to change. WTF. There is a huge disconnect between all the hate here for red light runners and what actually goes down on the street. It makes way less sense to run red lights in Hillsboro than in NYC but its in my blood. It is a lot riskier as well. Drivers of 1 ton pickups will chase, block and beat you for running lights out here.

I don't want to believe that any of the hard working commuter cyclists on bikeforums are intolerant, but IMO 20 point type is way overdone for a response to someone's misfortune re: a traffic ticket smackdown for red light running. There really are worse things a person can do and some of you high minded, law abiding, model cyclists that get so smug and superior over those whose human frailty is displayed by their inability to stand still at traffic signals have much larger blots on their own personnel record.

News flash. Red light running isn't going to stop anythime soon. Mainly because the number one argument against it is that it angers motorists. Not that it is unsafe, endangers small animals or makes hair grow on the palms of one's hands, but that it p.o.'s drivers. Drivers and goody two shoes cyclists who don't have the stones to get it done with some dispatch. Sorry for all of you. Stop hating and live your lives. Red light running is hardly the worst thing a cyclist can do. The majority don't cause any injuries doing it. That is why the arguments against it focus on the ire that it elicits from drivers who cannot do likewise. Tough you know what. They can ride a bicycle if they want to experience the rush for themselves.

I could say more but I think my drift is evident. This thread badly needs the balance of an over the top endorsement of pragmatic cycling.

H

Kevin, so you met a jerk cyclist. So? I meet jerk drivers, cyclists and pedestrians all the time. One is not worse than the other, and I can no more predict what they will do than you can predict what that cyclist would do. I ride safe, and I ride through red lights.

Leisesturm, they have no idea what it's like to ride here. It's a lot different than riding in florida or nebraska. ;) And if they do ride here and claim they don't ever run lights or jaywalk, well, they're probably fibbing.

I would prefer that they be treated like cyclists. Having a right to the road does not make you identical to a 4000lb car with a 200+hp engine. I'm a fan of the Idaho stop sign/red light laws. I run lights occasionally, but its usually after stopping and taking a second to survey the intersection and make sure its all clear. Bikes just dont pose much of a threat to anyone. I agree in a busy, dense city like NYC with a lot of pedestrian traffic, it becomes more important to follow the lights.

It's the opposite. It makes it more important to get out of the way of the many, many,many cars who don't notice you at all. If anything, the Idaho laws make more sense here.

Funny thing is I find I am noticed a lot; so much that I am more likely to get abuse/long blast on the horn than shaved/ran into from behind because I do get seen as I am riding as a vehicle. Maybe something to consider?


Andrew

that guy is just unlucky to get caught so many times. It is just like jwalking or speeding. The city needs to say it is illegal because it is the "right thing".

Common sense is a big issue too....dont blow lights when you see traffic cops. Simple. I live in nyc and ride everyday and probably run atleast a hundred lights a week (by run, I mean a rolling stop). But I'll never do it if a cop is visible.

I've been toying with the idea that governmental control may be good-intentioned; however it has resulted in a lot of unintended consequences. A few years back, local government converted an intersection from a through street with cross street stops to a 4 way stop. This was in response to a few accidents that occurred in a short period of time. A good solution may have been to make the stop signs more prominent, since the original ones did not really stand out. Ok, now we have a situation where all parties assume that since everybody needs to stop, they can get away with blowing through - and now we have more fender benders there.

So - getting back to the point of this thread: Yes, running red lights can be dangerous, but based on the circumstances could be completely safe. I have seen folks do some wildly risky things and others that though are breaking laws are mitigating their risk through careful observation and evaluation. I would say that the folks in the first group may have learned their bad behavior through reinforcement. Just like at the 4-way stop, if you get away with blowing through lights enough times, your perception of risk is much reduced. In other words, your feeling of safety is reinforced by getting away with it enough times. This process has the additional effect of reducing your inclination or ability to do what the second group does: careful observation and evaluation of probably risk situations. Giving tickets does not change the thought behind the behavior - it's obvious that the guy with the tickets does not think he did anything wrong.

So - finally getting down to it: Why don't we free ourselves from all of the government-controlled mindless traffic intervention? By making every intersection of equal risk to all, folks will realize that driving and cycling do indeed require our attention and partnership to be efficient and effective. Yes, there will be a few incidents at first, but these will serve as positive reinforcement of actual risk. No longer will we be lulled into the false presumption of safety because of our reliance on non-thinking traffic control devices. We're all smarter than a red light, aren't we?

-G

I'm gonna have to say, No, we are not smarter than a red light.

How many people drive drunk? Everytime I drive I see a stupid driver and everytime I bike I see a stupid cyclist too. Also, as a cyclist, people in cars won't magically start caring more about safety if there were no lights at an intersection. My guess is they would care less. It all comes down to consequences. For someone in a car, hitting a cyclist is essentially meaningless. The only thing stopping them is the potential lawsuit and the good of their hearts.

I agree with NYC in that cyclists should be held accountable for breaking the law but I do think the fines are indeed a little excessive.

Nonsense. I've been driving for 35 years, and I've seen a car on the sidewalk exactly once, and that was a wreck. Cars are highly predictable for *most* actions. If you see a car driving the wrong way on a one-way street, they're lost. If you see one driving the wrong way on the wrong side of the road, they're insane.

Pedestrians are all over the place, but they are slow-moving.

Bikes are wherever they want to be, whenever they want to be there - as a rule, as a standard, as what I have to anticipate unless proven otherwise. You can go on about how other vehicles break rules too, but the reality of my experience with bicyclists is that they consume an absolutely disproportionate amount of my traffic awareness when on the roads, and that's why I hate them. When I talk to other drivers, they say more or less the same thing in other words. And that's what the vast majority of bicyclists report as feedback from motorists, so it isn't just me.

It's complete denial to just say "motorists hate us because we're (free/slow/healthful/whatever)". They hate us because we (as a collective) don't follow any set rules of operation.

KeS

^ This.

We have to follow the rules of the road, including red lights, if we are ever to be taken seriously.

I think that's absolutely correct. I think a lot of people when they see cyclists on the road do not realize that we, too, have every right to be on the street (if there is not a bike path) as they do. When people see cyclists, especially here in Texas, they do not know what to do and how to go about them. A lot of other people get angry even because they believe that cyclists should stay off "their" roads, therefore they honk, whizz past, and flip people off. I think cyclists have every right to be on the road as cars do, but I also believe that if cyclists are so firm to share the roads, than we also have to abide by the same rules as we would if we were in a car. Just because you do not put a key in the ignition, does not mean you are a given some upspoken rule that you can ignore all the laws.

That last sentence did not make sense now that I have read it over. I meant to say Just because you do not put a key in the ignition, does not mean there is some unspoken rule that you can ignore all the laws. Lol.

Could someone cut-n-paste that article? That site is blocked at my work. It looks like our firewall does not like one of their ad servers.

I don't "ignore all the laws," I ignore one when it is unsafe. If you don't like it, I don't much care.

I think it also a lot of it depends on where you live too. If you live in a place where there are a lot of cyclists than yes, I can see you being able to roll through a red light as long as its safe because cars are a little bit more aware of your existence, but if you live somewhere like I do than its pretty much essential to living to stop.

Meh. A little self-loathing never hurt no one...

I think the fines are excessive, but then what is'nt excessive in NYC.
When I was stationed in Norfolk, VA. ( early 70's) several cyclists were ticketed for speeding and failure to stop at a particular intersection (residental). The speed limit outside of a back gate at the base was 15mph and two blocks down was a 4 way stop. I don't recall the fines or if there were points, but not stopping at the stop sign was far worse than the speeding.
The LEO's in that area interpreted a complete stop on a 2 wheeled vehicle as BOTH FEET ON THE GROUND.

that interpretation of a stop is silly...you should never have to put both feet on the ground because with bikes and motorcycles, you need your other foot on the pedal or shifter to move forward incase someone is coming up to hit you from behind.

even the msf course teaches you to drop only one foot when you stop.

Sucks when laws are written by ignorant people.

Here's a question: would you forgive the same stuff on a 50cc scooter? They (generally) don't need a license and travel below the speed limit, similar to bicycles. They're close to the same size as a bicycle.

If not, why not?

Well, I can tell you that scooters do it all the time here in NYC. I haven't noticed it being a problem.

if you haven't lived in nyc, don't waste your time commenting about running red lights. as others who live here like myself have already noted, you slow down, perhaps completely stop, but then you go through when no one is coming. the notion that bikes are vehicles is utterly stupid. we aren't cars, we aren't pedestrians, there needs to be a common sense understanding of that. I see pedestrians get mad at me for buzzing them when I have the light and they are jaywalking. Am i supposed to take the fact that they are walking out into the street to mean that there aren't cars behind me so I can just swerve into the next lane?

I think if every cyclist on the road were to follow all laws to the letter starting today, it would have little effect. The people who don't take cyclists seriously use the whole red light running as an excuse for the fact that they just dont want to deal with them on the road. Of course there are a few idiot cyclists out there, but the vast majority of red light runners are not acting recklessly - in fact, I would bet that no one witnesses 99.9% of the red lights run.

NY requires cyclists to have a bell on their bikes?

No, you're supposed to yield the right of way to pedestrians at all times... True, we are not cars. But, we are vehicles, as determined by the NYSDOT.

Don't like it? Try to get the DMV to change their minds about what bicycles are.