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Victim or perpetrator?

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Victim or perpetrator?

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Old 01-26-12, 12:24 PM
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Telly
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Victim or perpetrator?

Reading about how quite a lot of cyclist have cameras placed to record vehicular harassment and accidents, I decided to purchase a couple of small cheap cameras for my daily commute. They finally arrived yesterday and after charging one of them up, I clipped it to my rack-top bag and headed out this morning to work.

Not far from my home, a car started to tail-gate me dangerously close in a narrow street, and this was caught on camera (a bit shaky since I didn't use any mounts for the test).

When I reached work (I work at a law firm as an IT manager), I showed the video to one of the lawyers and was surprised to find out that because of Greek law, I could never use ANY video in court because of a law which prohibits the capturing of images/sound in public, and that I could even face a lawsuit for recording it in the first place!

So that's-that... here's a small shot of the idiot for your entertainment:

http://youtu.be/m30vNeRf4_w

Last edited by Telly; 01-26-12 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 01-26-12, 12:39 PM
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I would choose a different route, that street looks unsafe for bikes!
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Old 01-26-12, 12:42 PM
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I don't know about Greek law, and I agree that this street wouldn't be my first choice if I could avoid it. But the Audi's driving doesn't strike me as tailgaiting or even particularly unsafe.

I'd be much more concerned about getting doored by one of those many parked cars.
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Old 01-26-12, 12:47 PM
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it's legal to record in public and just as well people have used images taken in public before.

Probably a good idea to avoid this place, I subscribed to you too btw.

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Old 01-26-12, 12:50 PM
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Most residential streets are exactly like the one above, and in order for me to reach an avenue leading to my work, I have to pass at least 4-5 blocks of similar roads.
The video's shortened, but the Audi was stuck behind me no more that two feet, until I reached the small van/pre-schoolers bus where the tick you hear is the Audi's bumper touching the little rubber wing on my fenders!
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Old 01-26-12, 12:51 PM
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Ah, okay. I stand corrected.
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Old 01-26-12, 12:54 PM
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No need Caloso, you're absolutely right on the dooring bit, but so far my worst fear is cars bolting from their parking spaces without indicators (common practice around here)

Originally Posted by NeedARealBike View Post
it's legal to record in public and just as well people have used images taken in public before.
Probably a good idea to avoid this place, I subscribed to you too btw.
Greek law's a bit weird on the matter, but the lawyer's final say on the matter was absolute... no video admissible in court unless the camera (fixed) has written authorization and is not pointing onto a public area.

Thanks for subscribing, but I'm kinda poor on videos (will be recording some from now on, illegally of course!)

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Old 01-26-12, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Telly View Post
...a law which prohibits the capturing of images/sound in public, and that I could even face a lawsuit for recording it in the first place!
Wow that's ridiculous, so it's illegal for tourists with digital cameras to take pictures and record public areas?
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Old 01-26-12, 03:11 PM
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...not quite the areas as it is illegal to photograph people in public areas without their consent. Was reading up a bit on this and it seems that Google had the same problems with Street-view which DID pass through the streets of Athens and other large cities, but ran into a legal wall and was prohibited by Greek law to be uploaded to Google Maps!!!
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Old 01-26-12, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Telly View Post
No need Caloso, you're absolutely right on the dooring bit, but so far my worst fear is cars bolting from their parking spaces without indicators (common practice around here)
Here, too. There are 12 people in Seattle who use their blinkers/indicators. For the most part, people don't know what a blinking light means, and tend to be frightened and confused when they see one.
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Old 01-26-12, 05:38 PM
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Since you are showing a view to the rear, I'm kind of curious if you were riding in a "normal" manner, or busy recording a movie?
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Old 01-26-12, 06:50 PM
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I don't believe it.

Question:- How do tell when a lawyer is telling a lie?
Answer:- His lips are moving.
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Old 01-26-12, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Since you are showing a view to the rear, I'm kind of curious if you were riding in a "normal" manner, or busy recording a movie?
That's the problem with only one camera view, you're not seeing the whole picture...

The "camera" itself is the size of a matchbox, and was clipped on my rear rack-top bag. I wasn't holding anything, nor was I intentionally riding slow since I had a couple of cars in front of me. At the point where the Audi's bumper touches my rear fender, there's a small van/school bus (yellow) to the right of the camera with children exiting, and I had to slow down since the drivers in front of me also slowed. This is my normal daily route, speed (due to traffic) and yes I was "taking the lane" but going exactly the same speed as everyone else.


Originally Posted by 009jim View Post
I don't believe it.
Question:- How do tell when a lawyer is telling a lie?
Answer:- His lips are moving.
Under any other circumstance, I would TOTALLY agree with you! But these are people I've been working with for years now, and I know and trust them to watch my back, why would he lie?
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Old 01-26-12, 07:21 PM
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Why would YOU need the video in court?

IF a car is endangering you, why wouldn't you go to the police and show them the video?

Maybe this driver already has tickets for "road rage" and is on some type of probation??
IF SO, the driver isn't afforded the same kind of "protections" that "innocent" people have.
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Old 01-26-12, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Telly View Post
...not quite the areas as it is illegal to photograph people in public areas without their consent. Was reading up a bit on this and it seems that Google had the same problems with Street-view which DID pass through the streets of Athens and other large cities, but ran into a legal wall and was prohibited by Greek law to be uploaded to Google Maps!!!
If the photographing itself is illegal, then just about every tourist picture of the Parthenon or other place in Greece would be criminal since there are almost always assorted other people in the background. Google's Street-View is a little different since they publish the photos on public sites and they've encountered some legal issues about that in a number of different places. I notice that more recent Street-View pictures with people's faces have had the faces deliberately blurred to prevent clear identification.

But I'd be surprised if one would run into such issues with video evidence that's only presented to the police and courts rather than posted on a public website. Do the police in Greece never rely on surveillance camera video for solving crimes?
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Old 01-26-12, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Telly View Post
The video's shortened, but the Audi was stuck behind me no more that two feet, until I reached the small van/pre-schoolers bus where the tick you hear is the Audi's bumper touching the little rubber wing on my fenders!
Caution: Objects in the video are much closer than they appear.
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Old 01-26-12, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Telly View Post
At the point where the Audi's bumper touches my rear fender, there's a small van/school bus (yellow) to the right of the camera with children exiting, and I had to slow down since the drivers in front of me also slowed.
Telly, you were entirely within your rights to take the lane. Since the car "touched" your bike, you had the right to stop and take the driver's information, he essentially caused an accident, regardless of whether there was physical damage to your bicycle or your person. If you stopped to take his information and he did not, he essentially committed a crime: Hit and Run. You can, if you wish, file a police report. Tell the police what happened, and under advisement from the lawyers, explain to them that a video is available, even though it may not be admissible in court. The police routinely use surveillance cameras to find criminals (the Audi driver) even when the surveillance camera is not intended to protect the subject, say, an intersection accident captured by an automated teller machine. We have to defend our rights and we have to do it aggressively if necessary.

A pair of cameras is my next purchase, and I will use them once I start riding again. For the moment I'm recovering from two broken vertebrae, a broken right hand, and numerous other injuries caused not by a vehicle but by a careless pedestrian.
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Old 01-26-12, 10:53 PM
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Link from another thread that is entirely relevant, a cyclist fighting back with a helmet cam.
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Old 01-27-12, 12:45 AM
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I sincerely hope that you have a speedy recovery Chilero, and thanks for all the info and support.

My original posting might sound like I want to have this specific driver prosecuted, but the message that I wanted to pass was that a future more serious incident would still yield the same results from the laws view. I'm going to look into this a bit more during the weekend (have access to an online law database), but unfortunately the Greek law system is miles apart from the one I grew up with in the States, and it usually comes down to eyewitnesses and loopholes and precedence is NOT acknowledged!

@Bill If the driver has previous infractions of the sort, maybe I can get the police to prosecute, otherwise I would have been told that they'res no injury, therefore I should take this case to court. In the best possible outcome, I would expect the police to site him with a ticket for dangerous driving, but that would only happen if there were eyewitnesses around willing to give their names. Police, as of lately have been called upon to protect the politicians and even though they were already spread thin, are now very rarely seen on the streets; and with all the massive pay cuts they've had, they prioritize on the more serious issues and tend to leave the minor infractions well enough alone!

@Prathmann, a while back there was this kid called Matt which traveled alone around the world dancing in front of various landmarks to make the following video below, in which he didn't manage to add the scenes from the Parthenon because he was taken to the local police precinct for questioning! They of course didn't arrest him since there were no charges, but in the end the Parthenon didn't make it on a great viral video because of bureaucracy! Even though Greeks are a friendly and hospitable bunch, the whole law and government system is corrupt, totally disorganized and leaves a lot to be desires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlfKdbWwruY

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Old 01-27-12, 02:29 AM
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He hit you with his bumper? I'd either let the idiot pass (move away from the road), or STOP and see what his problem is. Just riding on is a strange choice, IMO.
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Old 01-27-12, 02:39 AM
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He tapped the rubber end of the fenders when I slowed down, and I wasn't sure about it till I saw the video at the office. I did tell the guy off at the lights half a block away for tailgating and got the usual "don't ride your bike on the streets" response.
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Old 01-30-12, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Telly View Post
The "camera" itself is the size of a matchbox
Care to share the camera specs? I'm very interested.
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Old 01-30-12, 03:48 AM
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Here are the specs from the eBay shop where I bought them (3 so far, great gifts!)


Uitra-small size of alloy air frame integration design, a variety of occasions to facilitate easy recording / monitoring.
Recorded the impact of voice-activated trigger function to facilitate the deployment of video, a longer time, you want the recorded images.
With PC camera function. the network relax to enjoy life.
AVI format video recording, broadcast Convenience PC, to easily upload video sites.
Illumination, 2 million high-definition camera.
High-speed dynamic video, instant response to light environment.
Video output: 720 x 480 px 30m frame/second.
Built- in lithium battery for 2 hours (1+ hours in reality) continuous use, voice-activated video can use more time.
Maximum support expansion cards 8G (TF Card NOT Included).
Mini USB charging data cable to connect computer and video upload download transfer function.
Full to the folder with the use of small gimballed to the whole point of recording / monitoring function.
Easy installation, suitable carrier materials, the installation of the use of complex scenes.
Package Included:

1 x Mini DV
1 x USB Cable
1 x Clip-On Adapter
2 x Bracket
1 x Rope
1 x Silicon Case(Free Gift)
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Old 01-30-12, 04:42 AM
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Tailgaters are basically trying to intimidate you into moving over, out of 'their' road. I just stand my ground and slow down further, same as I do in a car, so that if I have to stop suddenly, I won't get run over. Most tailgaters won't actually run you over, though slowing them to a speed where they can stop safely may result in a fountain of abuse from the driver.
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