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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 14262320)
I should probably clarify my position since it's been a long thread. I have no trouble with the idea of somebody getting a 2nd bike for winter especially since that's what in fact I have done myself. ;)
I do question the idea that a dedicated bike commuter needs to keep a spare bike around "just in case". I think most of us could manage without a bike the one or two days each year that their bike might out of commission for whatever reason. To take it a step further, I personally would prefer owning single a bike that was equally well suited for the things I use two bikes for now. I have a monthly "bike budget" and since I put a fair amount of miles on both bikes, I have two bikes worth of upkeep rather than one. I have two sets of fenders, I have two sets of lights, two sets of tools, two pumps, two sets of spare tubes, two patch kits, etc. If I only had one bike, I'd go through consumables for that bike quicker, but it would be much easier keeping spare parts and I'd have more money for the things I'd rather spend money on. The two bikes I have are intended for very different purposes and I doubt there is a single bike that could do what both of these do equally as well. So I have two bikes. Just because a guy's Surly LHT is outfitted for touring doesn't mean he can't substitute his broken down Diamondback Insight Commuter with it, when the time deems it necessary. OMG guys, I think we're splitting hairs here. There's not one bloody one of us who would not want an extra bike of value, if we had the storage space for it. Most us here, reverently observe the N+1 rule, without question. So, let's just stop it! Especially you, TJ! :lol: :roflmao2: :lol: |
Sure, but he has a point regarding new or prospective bike commuters. Fenders, panniers, lights, special clothes, all kinds of tools, spare bikes, none of that is necessary to start commuting. Just get a patch kit and air, jump on the bike and go.
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 14262589)
Sure, but he has a point regarding new or prospective bike commuters. Fenders, panniers, lights, special clothes, all kinds of tools, spare bikes, none of that is necessary to start commuting. Just get a patch kit and air, jump on the bike and go.
Newbie commuters need to expect to acquire these things, sometime down the road. Hopefully, more sooner than later! Now admittedly, some folks will never need rack and panniers, so those commuters will kindly omit those things from the list. Some folks work in factories and mills. It won't matter to them that much, if they've splashed through a few puddles while cycling to work. For them, fenders are a futile concern. However, practically everything else is a commuter requirement, if the commuter is being truly efficient... |
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 14262589)
Sure, but he has a point regarding new or prospective bike commuters. Fenders, panniers, lights, special clothes, all kinds of tools, spare bikes, none of that is necessary to start commuting. Just get a patch kit and air, jump on the bike and go.
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Originally Posted by SlimRider
(Post 14262689)
No. Those things aren't really necessary to get started. However, once they do start, they had better begin to acquire the necessary tools to keep rolling, or else they're going to be in trouble. That statement becomes increasingly important with commute distance. They are going to need patch kits, tire levers, pumps, Park tools, etc..If getting to work neat and clean is important, fenders will also play a significant role in their commute. If they are carring a laptop, books, lunch, and such, a rack with panniers might come in handy, too!
It's also important as newbie commuters, for them to expect to acquire these things, sometime down the road. Hopefully, more sooner than later! Now admittedly, some folks will never need rack and panniers, so those commuters will kindly omit those things from the list. Some folks work in factories and mills. It won't matter to them that much, if they've splashed through a few puddles while cycling to work. For them, fenders are a futile concern. However, practically everything else is a commuter requirement, if the commuter is being truly efficient... That being said, my guess is that maybe 50% of the people who commute to my office would bother to change a flat if they got one on the way to work. Their backup is a cell phone. And you know what? That's OK. As many times as I show my wife how to change a flat, she wouldn't do it unless she had no other option. She goes to work early and she'd have no problem waking me from a nice to slumber to go rescue her. Or if she was close enough to work or home, she'd just walk. Same with my 12 year old son. He bikes to school. Theoretically at least he could change a flat, but if he got one, he'd call me or my wife. That does remind me though. I should have him change one again just to prove to me, and more importantly to him, that he can do it. Oh, and I think it's a good idea to carry a spare tube even if you wouldn't change it yourself. Maybe a good samaritan would come along and change it for you. |
Originally Posted by Slaninar
(Post 14261563)
Perhaps... in the USA. Took me bloody 3 months to get a new, working STI lever. Just an extreme example, but you understand - sometimes you just get stuck and need to let it sit for a while, ride the other bike. :)
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Originally Posted by sixty fiver
(Post 14261288)
most of the people i know who are car free have a backup bike as should one bike be put out of commission, they won't be put out by having to use alternate transportation.
I could crash one bike a day for several weeks and still be okay to ride if i was not a broken and bloody mess. |
Originally Posted by nubcake
(Post 14263965)
Your still not out of a ride though, just use the limit screws to set the derailer in a suitable gear and the bike is still very ride-able until the new part shows. You even have a 2 or 3 speed if you have a double or triple up front.
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I just spent two painful hours in a work meeting trying hard to distinguish between requirements and desirements in a fiscally constrained effort. And then I made the mistake of popping open this thread. :lol:
We seemed to have drifted from the winter bike to the backup bike. I think it's reasonable to the point of essential to have a Plan B. For one person, Plan B might be to be a few minutes late. For another, perhaps that means having a Trek Madone on strip alert to mitigate the few minutes of delay incurred switching to Plan B when A became untenable. Players' choice. Maybe there's a strong argument to made that you don't just want a winter bike, you absolutely need not one, but TWO winter bikes. Just in case. On an icy day. |
Originally Posted by Slaninar
(Post 14265101)
That is true in that PARTICULAR case. There are breakdowns that make bike not rideable and if you can't find parts quickly, or at least not at a decent price, a backup bike comes in very handy. You can SURVIVE without a backup bike, but it is a very, very, very useful thing to have and doesn't cost much. Just like a second pair of jeans. :)
Even a crash that would bend the hell out of a wheel can usually be beat on the ground enough to clear the frame and bikeshops will always have wheels around, freehub fails you can use zip ties to tie the cassette to the spokes and make a fixie (just remember not to try and coast), bend a fork and you can usually force it back enough to limp home, etc. There really is very little that will hurt a bike so bad you can not limp it along. Those things are so rare that they are in no way enough to call them justification to tell other cyclist the NEED a second bike, second bikes are NICE but in no way a NEED. I do not mean to rant but one of my big pet peeves is people confusing the words need and want. |
[QUOTE=tjspiel;14262827]
There's no point in carrying a chain breaker or even a multi-tool if you don't know how to use one. I personally think that being able to change a tire is a really-really good to have skill if you're going to be a commuter. That being said, my guess is that maybe 50% of the people who commute to my office would bother to change a flat if they got one on the way to work. Their backup is a cell phone. And you know what? That's OK. As many times as I show my wife how to change a flat, she wouldn't do it unless she had no other option. She goes to work early and she'd have no problem waking me from a nice to slumber to go rescue her. Or if she was close enough to work or home, she'd just walk. Same with my 12 year old son. He bikes to school. Theoretically at least he could change a flat, but if he got one, he'd call me or my wife. That does remind me though. I should have him change one again just to prove to me, and more importantly to him, that he can do it. Oh, and I think it's a good idea to carry a spare tube even if you wouldn't change it yourself. Maybe a good samaritan would come along and change it for you. |
All depends how you look at it. I have a backup fair weather road bike, with skinny tires, no fenders and CF frame. I ride my winter bike year round, with fenders, rack and wide tires.
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I classify my rides a bit differently. I have an "A" bike for perfect weather conditions during the non winter months. I have a "B" bike for good winter weather conditions as by that time the "A" bike is in the trainer in the basement. Then there is the "C" bike which is used for foul weather days, usually during the winter, which in my neck of the woods are not as common as you would think. As for the really, really lousy days I take the Passat!!
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Will be going to see a man about a Pugsley on Saturday... because if there is an ultimate winter bike, this is it.
:) |
Oh man, I want a Pugsley/Moonlander so bad. I live in the middle of the sand dunes that inspired Frank Herbert, it's a crime that the LBS doesn't carry fatbikes.
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Originally Posted by kookaburra1701
(Post 14267227)
Oh man, I want a Pugsley/Moonlander so bad. I live in the middle of the sand dunes that inspired Frank Herbert, it's a crime that the LBS doesn't carry fatbikes.
Would not limit it's use to winter as they are a great trail bike and the extra cush in those tyres is good for my back and they roll out much faster than one would think as the rolling resistance on those fatties is extremely low. If I told you the price I will paying for the bike I am looking at and will most likely buy, you might want to hurt me. |
Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
(Post 14267349)
they roll out much faster than one would think as the rolling resistance on those fatties is extremely low.
If I told you the price I will paying for the bike I am looking at and will most likely buy, you might want to hurt me. |
I have a winter bike that is sort of working out as planned. It is a mountain bike like the main commuter, and the plan is that in November I install studded tires and begin riding it when it snows. Then, in April, I put back the regular tires and use it as a backup. That use pattern is handy in Minnesota because in recent years the snow has not been reliable. Sometimes the roads are bare, sometimes covered with packed snow. I can switch bikes as needed. My "backup" for mechanical failure is that my six-mile route to work passes a bike shop, on a bus route, at about mile 2.5. I am officially able to fix a flat, but I struggle with it, and am pleased to spend money at the bike shop because a bike repair is so much cheaper than a car repair.
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Originally Posted by nubcake
(Post 14265824)
Even a crash that would bend the hell out of a wheel can usually be beat on the ground enough to clear the frame and bikeshops will always have wheels around, |
Good grief. This discussion is STILL going on? The OP probably has his winter bike built up and is working on a spare one. :-) Meanwhile, the rest of us probably have a couple hundred miles added to our stats. In the words of Freddie Mercury, "Get on your bikes and ride!" Oh wait... Did he mean "bikes" as in summer and winter....?
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Originally Posted by nubcake
(Post 14265824)
The point I am trying to make is that those things are extremely rare and chances are if you have some decent mechanical skills you can get by till parts show up. Those cases are so rare that it is in no way common enough to tell people they MUST have a back up bike if they want to commute, that is a very quick way to turn people off from commuting.
Even a crash that would bend the hell out of a wheel can usually be beat on the ground enough to clear the frame and bikeshops will always have wheels around, freehub fails you can use zip ties to tie the cassette to the spokes and make a fixie (just remember not to try and coast), bend a fork and you can usually force it back enough to limp home, etc. There really is very little that will hurt a bike so bad you can not limp it along. Those things are so rare that they are in no way enough to call them justification to tell other cyclist the NEED a second bike, second bikes are NICE but in no way a NEED. I do not mean to rant but one of my big pet peeves is people confusing the words need and want. There's one problem with your argument here, Nubcake. Eventually, that limp-a-long bike, is gonna have to get fixed. It can't just limp along forever. According the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, with increase in time the universe experiences greater entropy. That's why everything deteriorates, given time. The more time, the more chaos! Ya gotta take the time to apply the energy, and work to get your mechanical system, called the bike, to operate according to expectations. That's why you NEED a spare bike...Just in such a case! PS. The Second Law of Thermodynamics demands that the N+1 Rule be obeyed without question! :lol: |
Originally Posted by SlimRider
(Post 14270578)
There's one problem with your argument here, Nubcake. Eventually, that limp-a-long bike, is gonna have to get fixed. It can't just limp along forever. According the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, with increase in time the universe experiences greater entropy. That's why everything deteriorates, given time. The more time, the more chaos!
Ya gotta take the time to apply the energy, and work to get your mechanical system, called the bike, to operate according to expectations. That's why you NEED a spare bike...Just in such a case! PS. The Second Law of Thermodynamics demands that the N+1 Rule be obeyed without question! :lol: Even if you do completely trash a wheel or a part that is un-available right away to where you can not keep the bike going you can try scavenging or just walk/take public transit, a cab for a couple days, etc. You can justify your 2nd (3rd, 4th, 5th, however many you want) bikes however you would like to yourself but telling new commuters the NEED a second bike is only going to discourage many would be commuters. I promise you if I tried telling a customer who came into the shop they need 2 bikes if they want to commute they would either go to another shop or give up the idea of commuting entirely. Hell this isn't even the car free section so take your car for a day or two if you trash the bike beyond repair (again, extremely rare if you keep up with repairs) Although I am liking the creativity in your way of justifying multiple bikes SlimRider |
Originally Posted by nubcake
(Post 14270692)
The idea is to limp it along until parts show up, not use band-aid fixes for permanent repairs :thumb:
Even if you do completely trash a wheel or a part that is un-available right away to where you can not keep the bike going you can try scavenging or just walk/take public transit, a cab for a couple days, etc. You can justify your 2nd (3rd, 4th, 5th, however many you want) bikes however you would like to yourself but telling new commuters the NEED a second bike is only going to discourage many would be commuters. I promise you if I tried telling a customer who came into the shop they need 2 bikes if they want to commute they would either go to another shop or give up the idea of commuting entirely. Hell this isn't even the car free section so take your car for a day or two if you trash the bike beyond repair (again, extremely rare if you keep up with repairs) Although I am liking the creativity in your way of justifying multiple bikes SlimRider Quite frankly, I think it's a good idea for newbies to approach commuting with the idea that they're gonna need their main commuter steed and a possible beater for a spare. They don't have to focus on the beater, spare, or N+1 project, immediately. However, it's quite a healthy idea, just to keep that extra bike, on the back burner of their minds. Even two beaters are better than just one! PS. 'Tis better to have and not need, than to need and not have... |
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My winter bike: Fixed gear to avoid problems with frozen pawls/derailleurs. Flat bars to accommodate poggies for hand warmth in bitter cold. Studded tires. Fenders. Toe cages to accommodate boots for foot warmth in bitter cold. Rack with large panniers to hold extra winter stuff. It's not a beater, but it is a dedicated winter bike. Works for me. |
Where I live there's no point in having a winter bike. I just call it "another bike".
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