|
Originally Posted by Slaninar
(Post 14976127)
and a lot more vilages have people who can weld steel, than those who can weld aluminium.
Anywhere less developed, they're going to look at your frame and shrug. These shops just don't exist in the 21st century global economy. Heck, even in developed areas, a machine shop with the right tools is going to look at you a bit askance when you bring in your bicycle frame. I think this is just all sepia-toned nostalgia. |
Originally Posted by Banzai
(Post 14976169)
This is what I'm saying the myth of Ye Olde Village Welder is something left-over from vintage stories of Le Tour. This is nothing more than a trope now. Anyplace that has the capacity to weld your frame (particularly when we're talking about some of the newer steels) also has a phone. And a mailing address.
Anywhere less developed, they're going to look at your frame and shrug. These shops just don't exist in the 21st century global economy. Heck, even in developed areas, a machine shop with the right tools is going to look at you a bit askance when you bring in your bicycle frame. I think this is just all sepia-toned nostalgia. |
Originally Posted by Banzai
(Post 14976169)
This is what I'm saying the myth of Ye Olde Village Welder is something left-over from vintage stories of Le Tour. This is nothing more than a trope now. Anyplace that has the capacity to weld your frame (particularly when we're talking about some of the newer steels) also has a phone. And a mailing address.
See how long it takes, how expensive it gets. On the other hand, in my garage I have what it takes to make a broken steel frame roll on. That is an option. You can almost always use phone, hitch hike to the nearest place with spare parts, or order. But it's good to have an option to temporarily fix your bike and roll for another 100 kilometres to the nearest shop. |
Originally Posted by SlimRider
(Post 14975163)
Chances are, that's only because you ride your aluminum framed bike more often, most probably...
If your steel bikes are still around, no doubt they can triple the mileage of that aluminum one you've got. I know that I must have well over 200,000 miles on my Nishiki Sebring by now... It's almost thirty years old! 200,000 / 30 = 6666 miles / year (or 11000km/year) which works out to 18 miles / day (or 30km/day) for 30 years if a single day isn't missed. That's riding 1h to 1.25h / day every single day for 30 years. That's not so hard to believe. But not missing a day is hard to believe: 1. do you have kids? 2. do you take vacations (we take 8 weeks/year and usually don't take the bikes with us)? 3. do you travel for work? Show us a picture of this so-called beast :D |
You forgot about average speed, dude! Average BF rider makes 30 kilometres in under 10 minutes. When COMMUTING that is! When late for work, gives it extra effort and makes 30 kilometres in under 5 minutes, no sweat. This leaves lots of room for skiping days, since you can always take a 500 kilometre 2 hour weekend ride. Here's a video of a BF member (below average one, I must add) riding casually to work...
|
Originally Posted by Slaninar
(Post 14976229)
You forgot about average speed, dude! Average BF rider makes 30 kilometres in under 10 minutes. When COMMUTING that is! When late for work, gives it extra effort and makes 30 kilometres in under 5 minutes, no sweat. This leaves lots of room for skiping days, since you can always take a 500 kilometre 2 hour weekend ride. Here's a video of a BF member (below average one, I must add) riding casually to work...
like I said, you better be damn fast all the time with drops or else you look ridiculous. eurocity/post bikes FTW |
perhaps this is slim? electricity generation in Japan post-Fukushima?
|
Originally Posted by Slaninar
(Post 14976127)
Well, yes. That is one advantage for touring. If you go to a place where you can't buy a new frame (or bike). Or can't afford one. That's an option. 90% of paths on this planet are not paved and a lot more vilages have people who can weld steel, than those who can weld aluminium.
Edit. I didn't notice we were on page 3 and this had already been addressed. But the steel in a motorcycle frame is several times thicker than the steel in a bike frame. And that makes a big difference. |
Originally Posted by rebel1916
(Post 14976386)
My understanding, is that welding a nice steel frame is a very different proposition than welding say a truck frame, and is outside the ability of your average grease monkey with an arc welder.
Edit. I didn't notice we were on page 3 and this had already been addressed. But the steel in a motorcycle frame is several times thicker than the steel in a bike frame. And that makes a big difference. |
Originally Posted by Slaninar
(Post 14976403)
Read post #53.
|
Originally Posted by rebel1916
(Post 14976440)
I did. It doesn't change what I said. Perhaps, on a long tour, through wild regions, someone with a genny powered welder could bodge a steel frame together well enough to get to the next major town. Or more likely, he will burn a hole in the thin tubing, leaving you worse off than before and asking him for a lift to the nearest phone. Not to mention, that such touring makes up approximately 1/10 of 1% of all the riding on BF. Next time I plan a bike tour through the Congo, I promise I will consider steel...
|
Originally Posted by acidfast7
(Post 14976176)
Have you even been to the Russian Market in Phnom Penh? or anywhere in rural SE Asia? I think the welding of steel vs. aluminum argument really holds true while doing certain types of touring. They were welding steel moto frames right in the center of the market. They wouldn't bat an eye at welding a cracked steel bicycle frame.
If you want to see what happens when Ye Olde Village Smithy has a go at fixing a bike in the Back of Beyond, look here. I've had my own experiences with welding steel frames in the late 80s. A machinist co-worker welded my broken Miyata Ridge Runner...cracked frame at the chainstay bridge. He was surprised at how thin the metal was and commented that it would be easy to burn a hole through the metal. This is a guy who has welded pressure vessels for me and who has made a wire mess (2mm screen) basket for the same pressure vessel. He has better welding skills then you'll find in the back of beyond. He also welded a broken seat mast on an aluminum bike for me about 10 years ago which is still in service. The steel bike long ago went to the junk yard...it broke at a different place. |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 14976517)
Look at the title of the forum to which you are posting: Commuting.
Props to that guy for finishing on the same bike :thumb: What's the worst that could've happened? |
Can I ask a slightly OT question here?
Someone earlier in this thread suggested that manufacturing aluminum frames was cheaper than steel. Does anyone know this for a fact? How is this possible? I suspect there is some reason for this, but I also notice that many low-end bikes still have a lot of steel (mostly hi-ten) bits, particularly stays and forks. |
Originally Posted by gerv
(Post 14976626)
Can I ask a slightly OT question here?
Someone earlier in this thread suggested that manufacturing aluminum frames was cheaper than steel. Does anyone know this for a fact? How is this possible? I suspect there is some reason for this, but I also notice that many low-end bikes still have a lot of steel (mostly hi-ten) bits, particularly stays and forks. It costs much more to make steel bikes, because it costs more to melt iron than it does aluminum. Iron has a much higher melting point.Therefore, energy costs with respect to recycling iron or its steel alloy soon becomes cost prohibitive, when the option of recycling aluminum is on the table. Besides, aluminum is 100% recyclable and is more available than steel. It's also cheaper to transport aluminum than steel, as aluminum is lighter. Also, aluminum bicycles are easier to mass produce than steel bicycles, as they require less energy and few man-hours in both producing and handling. Also, aluminum cuts easier, and therefore, faster than steel... *Ultimately, the switch to aluminum from steel translates into billions of dollars to bicycle industrialists (profiteers). |
Originally Posted by SlimRider
(Post 14976682)
It costs much more to make steel bikes, because it costs more to melt iron than it does aluminum. Iron has a much higher melting point.Therefore, energy costs with respect to recycling iron or its steel alloy soon becomes cost prohibitive, when the option of recycling aluminum is on the table. Besides, aluminum is 100% recyclable and is more available than steel.
It's also cheaper to transport aluminum than steel, as aluminum is lighter. Also, aluminum bicycles are easier to mass produce than steel bicycles, as they require less energy and few man-hours in both producing and handling. So I'm not sure I believe you. Cheap kids bikes are still made largely from steel. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...227138686.html I think a high quality steel frame may cost relatively more compared to aluminum than it did 20 years ago largely because high quality steel frames are more of a niche market than they used to be. Twenty years ago, it was the opposite. |
Originally Posted by Banzai
(Post 14975959)
I love all the talk about "if a steel frame breaks it can be welded blah de blah de blah" or "if it fails on you touring somewhere, you can get it fixed."
Who DOES that? Sure...I'll just push her on over to Ye Olde Smithy and have him fire up the torch and the forge for me. No one does this...they just like the idea of it. What they do is go to the bike shop, inquire as to whether it's covered by warranty, and let that determine what the next frame (or whole bike) is going to be. Which basically means that every frame material lasts forever, or until you tire of it. If my steel Ritchey breaks, I'll be on the phone with...Ritchey. The cost of fixing it and getting it paint matched alone would net me a new frame if Ritchey won't take care of it. And if they do, I don't care if TR himself welds it back together (well, maybe a little :D ), so long as I'm riding again soon. New frame, my frame, whatever. Not that I actually anticipate this happening, but it's all a very imaginary "advantage" to steel. Of course, I don't anticipate my AL CAAD9 breaking either. Brazing on alu is somewhat...troubling, as well. |
Originally Posted by Banzai
(Post 14976169)
This is what I'm saying the myth of Ye Olde Village Welder is something left-over from vintage stories of Le Tour. This is nothing more than a trope now. Anyplace that has the capacity to weld your frame (particularly when we're talking about some of the newer steels) also has a phone. And a mailing address.
Anywhere less developed, they're going to look at your frame and shrug. These shops just don't exist in the 21st century global economy. Heck, even in developed areas, a machine shop with the right tools is going to look at you a bit askance when you bring in your bicycle frame. I think this is just all sepia-toned nostalgia. |
Originally Posted by Commodus
(Post 14976738)
It's not imaginary at all. I've broken/cracked several steel frames. I take it to the welder, he fixes it for $25 while I have a pint at the pub next door (Cambie Cycles for anyone who's in the area and interested). Try that with alu.
Brazing on alu is somewhat...troubling, as well. Since you mentioned Cambie, it also sounds like you're not having them fixed by a random welder but rather somebody experienced with bike frames. For that matter the aluminum frame on my winter bike cost me... $25. |
Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 14976815)
I'm more disturbed by the fact that you've managed to break several steel frames than reassured by the fact you found somebody to weld them.
Since you mentioned Cambie, it also sounds like you're not having them fixed by a random welder but rather somebody experienced with bike frames. For that matter the aluminum frame on my winter bike cost me... $25. |
Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 14976718)
Ford is/was planning on making the body on its next 150 pickup largely out of aluminum rather than steel to cut weight and improve fuel economy. One obstacle is cost. It's estimated that it would cost an extra $1,500 in material.
So I'm not sure I believe you. Cheap kids bikes are still made largely from steel. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...227138686.html I think a high quality steel frame may cost relatively more compared to aluminum than it did 20 years ago largely because high quality steel frames are more of a niche market than they used to be. Twenty years ago, it was the opposite. www.nbcnews.com/business/ford-looks-aluminum-slash-weight-pickups-916000 Trust me when I tell you that once we start comparing the cost of recycled steel to that of aluminum, steel will always be much higher, due to its higher melting point. The energy cost differential is enormous! |
I guess in my opinion the ability to cheaply repair a broken frame is a small consideration. I'd only do it as a stop gap solution and I have two bikes so that's really not necessary for me. Even if I just had one bike, I'm more likely to buy a cheap replacement if I didn't have the funds to get something I wanted rather than go the welding route.
On a tour, well, cyccommute posted a link to a thread where somebody tried that with pretty bad results. It's sort of like insisting that PVC pipe is a good choice from a frame material because in a pinch you could use it to repair a drain in your home. While it may be true, it's really not a valid consideration for most people. |
Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 14976849)
...
It's sort of like insisting that PVC pipe is a good choice from a frame material because in a pinch you could use it to repair a drain in your home. While it may be true, it's really not a valid consideration for most people. I dunno, I don't really think this is particularly controversial. I have a bike frame, I broke it. It is steel (a Soma Smoothie ES) so I had it fixed the same day. If it was aluminum, I'd be buying another frame...even if I could buy one for the same price, I still have to find it and get it here. To my mind, this constitutes a significant advantage. What's the advantage to aluminum? Easier to machine I suppose... |
I would worry less about material and focus first on what you want to do with the bike. For a commuter you will probably want a frame that has braze ons for racks and fenders and a frame that will allow the use of wider tires than 23/25mm. If you prefer drops sport/tourers or road friendly cross bikes make for great all rounders. If you like to ride higher up a number of companies make hybrids that are basically flat bar road bikes.
|
Originally Posted by SlimRider
(Post 14976847)
The estimated increase in the aluminum investment was initially based upon extracting raw aluminum from bauxite. The article that I've linked, states that those costs drop significantly when recycling is considered:
www.nbcnews.com/business/ford-looks-aluminum-slash-weight-pickups-916000 Trust me when I tell you that once we start comparing the cost of recycled steel to that of aluminum, steel will always be much higher, due to its higher melting point. The energy cost differential is enormous! But despite its weight advantages aluminum is no panacea, experts warn. The material is substantially more expensive than traditional steels and even fares negatively when compared with the most exotic ultra-high-strength steels, such as those used to help shave weight in the new Cadillac ATS compact luxury sedan. Aluminum is also significantly more energy-intensive, both in the smelting of the raw metal and in the automotive assembly process — though energy demands drop sharply when manufacturers work with recycled metal. |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:14 PM. |
Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.