Uh, no, that's not "good destination positioning". That's ambiguous destination positioning. In a straight-or-right lane, good destination positioning for the thru cyclist is being on the left side. Now, in a left-straight-or-right lane, "good destination positiong" is "smack dab in the middle" of the lane.

If I was in a right-turning car behind you, I would not have attacked your or honked, but I probably would have opened my window and asked you to move over to the left. How would that be "endangering your life", by the way? I do it at multiple intersections on my commute route daily.


Absolutely.


What VC grounds would those be? If you were on a motorcycle, where would you stop? (I would stop to the left). If I was in a car, I would stop toward the left of the lane, to leave room for right-turning motorcyclists and bicyclists to turn right. Actually, in a 12-foot wide lane, it is often possible for a car to squeeze by to the right of another car, as long as the first car is stopped on the very left side of the lane - which is correct in this situation.


That should tell you something... ;)


RIGHT? No way! I think you mean "move over to the LEFT".


In that case you're TOO far to the left. You should be just far enough to the left to allow right-turners to squeeze by on your right, but not so far as to invite the thru motorists to stop beside you. They should stop behind you. It's amazing what a big difference only slight or subtle changes in lateral lane position can make in terms of how others behave in response.

In any case, you should also be able to deal with a stream of motorists passing you on the right (look back over your right shoulder, signal right if necessary, wait until someone slows to let you in, yada yada yada... you know the drill).


I don't understand how a bike lane that puts you to the right of right-turners would help, or how it would "formalize the merge to the center of the lane". A sign explicitly giving the right-of-way to bicyclists might help, if it's adhered to, but should not be necessary to any cyclist riding vehicularly.

How do motorcyclists avoid your problems at this intersection?

I always stop to the left of the shared go straight/right turn lane and it works beautifully. Cars squeeze by me on my right. Many of them say thanks or wave. Some also stop slightly behind me to my right and I often look behind me and if they have their right turn signal on I wave them by me.

Actually in many cases the lane widens at the intersection and while there is not a painted right turn lane, it is implicit that left bias is for go straight and right side is for right turn. (Even the inductive sensors are only on the left side of the wide lane, so right turners do not trigger them)

There is the occasional problem where another cyclist will position themselves on the right side and with me in the left, this blocks cars from passing to the right of me or to the left of other cyclist. I wonder who the motorist thinks is causing the blockage?

Al

I find that this works quite well too... in fact, I make a point of looking carefully down the road before waving on a right turning vehicle just so I don't make the blunder of waving someone on into oncoming traffic. The other thing that helps is being back just a touch from the line, so a driver in the vehicle to your right can see beyond you.

My experience is identical to noisebeam's - including the occasional second cyclist problem who stops too far to the right.

Gene - I don't understand what you're saying. Why are you "waving on" anyone? That never occured to me. What's the point? Are you saying some right-turning drivers are uncomfortable driving passed you on your right, and need to be "waved on" so they know it's okay? Hmm. I've never had to do that. They just go...

Yeah, me and Al both seem to have this "problem..." motorists vary... some go on, and others just stop and wonder. If your experience is the same as noisebeam's, then this too must happen.

You seem to be missing exactly what folks are saying... perhaps adjusting the glasses... or the medications might help.

Good day.

No, no, no, no, no. This lane is 12 ft wide max. Maybe more narrow. There is no room to be far enough left and let right-turners "squeeze by" on my right and still force straight travel vehicles to stop behind me. It's either all the way right, all the way left, or somewhere inbetween. And somewhere inbetween takes the whole lane.

I simply cannot believe my ears (or eyes in this case). You are actually advocating a cyclist to allow a stream of traffic to his/her right?! No. Not correct. That is not correct destination positioning. If you had two lanes of traffic going straight, and you yourself are going straight, would you position to the left of the right lane? No. Same principle.

. . . I don't attempt to understand motorist behavior. If you do, please write a book for us all to explain it. My experience, people seemed to obey the sign. The BL in question did not put me to the right of the right-turners. That is my point. Well before the intersection, it allowed for merging to the center by dashed line and signage. Yes, it was an explicit sign giving cyclists the right of way and it helped. Was it necessary? Yes. Somehow, I don't think motorists in St Louis have any clue about "vehicular cycling.

What do you do when the light turns green and you have a line of traffic to your right? Isn't this a less than ideal lane position, if not downright dangerous?

The lane in question is not one that widens at the intersection.

In fact some do stop and do not pass, even though there is plenty of room on my right. I guess some drivers here are extra courteous to cyclists, or perhaps more likely worried about doing the 'wrong' thing. On the other hand some drivers blow by pretty quick and only make a rolling stop for their right turn. In both cases it is not a problem for me, just an observation of varying driver behavior and how appropriate destinationing positioning and appropriate communication with drivers accomidates both.

Al

This has only happened once out of perhaps thousands of times and the passing driver was in a right turn lane and went straight*. The vast majority of drivers know you are going straight and let you do this. Also in most cases you can (even as not an athletic cyclist) get out in front of them as light turns green. This situation is so rare and so easy to accomidate that the benefits of left side positioning far outweigh this situation.

*In fact I described the situation on this forum http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=81804 and while curious and annoying it was not outright dangerous - the driver should not have been coming up on my right in the right turn lane to go straight. To me at the time they seemed more clueless than agressive.

Al

That will depend to a great extent on how many LAB members actively support LABreform, especially when voting in this year's election.

If you're still of an open mind about this, then you may want to have a look at the explanation that I just posted over in the "55 mph+++ roads" thread.

I'm a LAB member who just made LABreform one of my favorites....Bruce, once again, thanks for your systematic efforts..... :)

Is there a specific post you are refering to?

And actually I have quite an open mind about this... I think VC riding AND bike lanes can co-exist. I am also open to your suggestion of a possible improvement to bike lanes. I just find it funny to use the term "segregation" when I have full rights to the road... motorists, on the other hand, do not. I don't feel that I am being segregated against. I think that is rather accepting of any and all situations... hence "open minded."

Others are somewhat closed minded and want to eliminate ALL bike lanes. They will only accept one situation.

Just this morning a guy in a pickup truck stopped behind me, right biased in lane, me on the left side to go straight. I waved him on to let him know it was OK to pass me. When he was next to me thru his already rolled down window said "Just didn't want to crowd you. Thank you. Have a good day, sir", I said "no problem" and he went on to make his left turn.

Al

This is a different situation than mine. In my case, it is a shared straight/right turn lane. Therefore, it is not a rare occurrence for motorists to go straight and end up on my right, if I position to the left. I tried it once. It is not comfortable riding down the double yellow with traffic on my right and oncoming traffic inches to my left.

Agreed it is different situation, my point was that this is the only time out of thousands that this has ever happened and it was a situation where there was a squeeze across the intersection because the right turn lane that the driver went straight from obviously did not continue across the intersection and they had to merge left into the go straight lane on the other side - if this had been a case of side by side in the go straight, there would have been no squeeze, one would proceed side by side and either you or the car will merge behind one another depending who is faster - I don't understand why you would be so far left as to be on the double yellow line. You are left biased, but not on the line and when you proceede you proceed straight, not further to the left.

Most of the time (in about 15 intersections per day) I am in a shared go-straight, right turn lane and left bias myself to let right turners proceed. In this situation I have never had a car pull up next to me and go straight when I was also. It is just far to obvious to drivers that you are also going straight.

Key perhaps is to left bias yourself in lane so that right turners have a bit of a squeeze to get by - these right turners will be passing you at very low speed, a creep if you will, so they will pass on your right closer than 3ft and more importantly have their right wheels almost touching the curb - no go straight driver would do this. Also if you are too left biased drivers may think your intent is to make a left turn perhaps?

Al

Again, the lane in my case is narrow. I believe they restriped a single WOL into two lanes, a left turn lane and the shared straight/right lane. In the few times I attempted a left bias, someone did line up to my right going straight, and it was so uncomfortable that I never tried it again. Plus, it was totally against any training I've ever had.

Because this one intersection has been so problematic, and my VC approach of taking the lane seems to cause problems (I still maintain it is good VC to take this lane at the intersection), I've tried a totally new strategy. If I am the first in line, I ride up the pedestrian cutout onto the sidewalk to push the ped cross button. I then loop back on the sidewalk, allowing all the right turners to turn on the green arrow, and then time my approach with the solid green, merging from a nearby driveway into the lane. If at any time, there is a straight travelling car, then I'm OK, just pull up behind them. Otherwise, the looping strategy has worked so far. No more angry motorists with screwdrivers.

Bill, I am going to try my question one more time (if you've already answered it, sorry, I missed it).

What would you do on a motorcycle in this situation, and why would you do anything differently when on a bicycle?

A couple of the intersections I deal with daily also have a very narrow lane. I still left bias myself (but am a couple feet to right of white line which divides straight and left turn lane) which allows smaller cars to pass by if they put their right wheels several inches from curb. A large SUV wouldn't be able to squeeze by - unless I decide to wave them by and let them squeeze by me with a foot or so to spare and I tilt my bike away from them (I'll only do this if I know light has just turned red and this will save them several minutes of unnessary wait - I don't feel compelled to do this, just good will, maybe depending on my mood)

I got to tell ya, it never creates any kind of problem and left biasing vs. right overwhelmingly avoids the problem of having these same cars pass me on my left to go around me which I refuse to let happen, both to prevent right hooks when light turns green, but also so that left turners from the opposite side of the intersection have a clear view of me instead of me being blocked by cars that would otherwise be on my left. Other than center positioning (only if I am at front of line, left positioning is otherwise required so you don't get visually blocked by car in front of you), there is no other way I would do it and I would not ever find myself moving around in circles or what have you at an intersection as this also creates driver anxiety, confusion and frankly is not done by any other vehicle that I am aware of.

I really am sure that will proper lane positioning in a lane of any width you can allow cars to pass you on your right to make a right turn and not have cars passing you on your right when you are both going straight. Keep in mind this requires several inches of left/right correct positioning, not accuracy within say feet.

Finally, if in doubt, take the center of the lane and block every car - this is far safer in my opinion overall than riding in circles or right biasing even if not at front of intersection. I do think it is very rare to have a driver get upset that you are blocking a right turn on red. If you were a car waiting to go straight they would be blocked as well. I know a different active thread was started based on a driver getting mad, but if the lane is so narrow as to not have anyway for car to pass you, you simply do not have a choice.

Actually, when I think about it, I believe that taking the center of the lane is the most vehicular way to ride, but that with experience one can bias left to allow right turners on red. This is certainly not a must do behavior or a requirement to make yourself safer, but is really just a friendly gesture that can keep traffic moving and provide the courtesy back to car drivers that you expect to get from them. Like I said this gets me lots of thanks and smiles and makes me a happier cyclist and them happier motorists - a win/win.

Al

If I were in a motorcycle and headed straight, I'd sit right in the middle of the lane, like I argue is the correct VC approach. If I understood you correctly, you advice moving over to the left (of the lane?) and letting cars turn right. Would you do that on a motorcycle? Maybe my memory is faulty. I almost swear that's what you recommended somewhere in this lengthy thread.

Amen. The importance of seemingly subtle and insignificant adjustments to lateral lane position (like you say, measured in inches) never ceases to amaze, and is perhaps the most important thing I learned from reading and practicing Effective Cycling. Not that Forester explicitly says this. Only when you realize how your behavior, including lateral lane position, can be used to influence the behavior of motorists around you (as opposed to accepting their behavior for what it is and working around them), can you being to appreciate the big differences that subtle adjustments in lateral lane position can make. This of course applies in all kinds of situations, not just when stopped in a narrow straight-or-right lane.

It's difficult to imagine how the power of subtle lateral lane adjustments could ever be appreciated by a bike lane advocate/separatist.


Disagree. Destination positioning indicates you should choose a position that indicates your intended destination. In a left-straight-or-right lane, the center of the lane is correct for going straight. But in a straight-or-right lane, a bias to the left is correct for going straight. One way to think about it is to consider where the center of a car tends to be whose driver is headed in your direction.

In a narrow straight-or-right lane, as you earlier pointed out, thru drivers tend to bias to the left, and so should you. So don't stop in the center of the lane in this type of situation, if you are acting like a vehicle driver.

OK, I had to read through that entire post to read the last paragraph where you totally reverse yourself! Thank you. This is what I've been saying all along. Center positioning is the correct VC position in this intersection! Period. Left position for straight travel is wrong in this case. And yes, it is really only an issue when I am first in line, but I am first in line perhaps 1 day out of 5. In this case, I have totally abandoned what I argue is correct VC by riding on the sidewalk, pushing the crosswalk button and circling around because . . . surprise of surprises, motorists don't like to wait for cyclists! At least at this intersection. Sounds like everyone's a happy camper in your neck of the woods. Happy for you!!!

Hold on cowboy. Al's statement was not nearly as absolute as yours. I think his instincts were correct on this, and he didn't think it all the way through. I suspect that when he does, he will realize that his instincts were spot on about this.

Straight from the horse's mouth:

"If one lane serves two destinations, such as left and straight, ride on the side nearer your destination". (my emphasis) John Forester, Effective Cycling, 6th ed, p. 318.

Also Figure 32.12 on p. 322 showing "proper cyclist tracks through an intersection with parked cars" shows the right turning track for the cyclist to be along the right edge of the straight-or-right lane, while the track for the thru cyclists is shown to be near the left edge of that lane, not the center.