View Poll Results: Please choose the option that most accurately reflects your position.
I support laws that require cyclists to ride in bike lanes when they exist.
2
2.11%
I support laws that require cyclists to ride in bike lanes as long as they have reasonable exceptions (e.g. CA's 21208).
27
28.42%
I would support repealing any laws that require cyclists to ride in bike lanes.
16
16.84%
I would support a law that explicitly said cyclists are never required to ride in a bike lane.
6
6.32%
I would support repealing any laws that require cyclists to ride in bike lanes AND I would support a law that explicitly said cyclists are never required to ride in a bike lane.
44
46.32%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll
Mandatory bike lanes
#651
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
The 7 lane road closest to my house was paved a few months ago. There was a 1wk period where there were no lane dividing lines (just cones to divide direction)
I found that traffic went significanlty slower, was more cautious. The best part was that it made cycling far more comfortable as the previously very narrow outside lane turned into one giant WOL and cars gave very wide clearance when passing.
Al
I found that traffic went significanlty slower, was more cautious. The best part was that it made cycling far more comfortable as the previously very narrow outside lane turned into one giant WOL and cars gave very wide clearance when passing.
Al
#652
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
I wonder how long it would have worked. Slower is really an asset... but in this case all the traffic was slower... not just the push and pull experienced when motorists have to round an obstacle.
I only brought up this example as it supported that no lane markers caused drivers to go slower, not that it was neccessaily safer.
The better for cycling had nothing to do with traffic speed (was at 45mph instead of usual 55mph), but because cars passed with more clearance like they would have with a WOL. When I ride this road now (only when I have to it is miserable to ride on) in the narrow outside lane, I get passed by stream of cars going 55mph.
Al
#653
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
My bet was that in the long run there may have been more accidents, just a hunch. At night it was not pleasant because you couldn't see the curb well enough from the middle and center lanes to go straight.
I only brought up this example as it supported that no lane markers caused drivers to go slower, not that it was neccessaily safer.
The better for cycling had nothing to do with traffic speed (was at 45mph instead of usual 55mph), but because cars passed with more clearance like they would have with a WOL. When I ride this road now (only when I have to it is miserable to ride on) in the narrow outside lane, I get passed by stream of cars going 55mph.
Al
I only brought up this example as it supported that no lane markers caused drivers to go slower, not that it was neccessaily safer.
The better for cycling had nothing to do with traffic speed (was at 45mph instead of usual 55mph), but because cars passed with more clearance like they would have with a WOL. When I ride this road now (only when I have to it is miserable to ride on) in the narrow outside lane, I get passed by stream of cars going 55mph.
Al
"I only brought up this example as it supported that no lane markers caused drivers to go slower, not that it was neccessaily safer."
This too is my take on the lack of BL on higher speed roads... I just don't find that the push and pull and "negotiation" of motorists slowing down to figure out what a cyclist is doing/may do, is a safer situation.
They do drive slower... admittedly... or speed up to buzz you (GRIN). But I think that situation causes tension that can be reduced by putting in a BL.
#654
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
"I only brought up this example as it supported that no lane markers caused drivers to go slower, not that it was neccessaily safer."
This too is my take on the lack of BL on higher speed roads... I just don't find that the push and pull and "negotiation" of motorists slowing down to figure out what a cyclist is doing/may do, is a safer situation.
They do drive slower... admittedly... or speed up to buzz you (GRIN). But I think that situation causes tension that can be reduced by putting in a BL.
This too is my take on the lack of BL on higher speed roads... I just don't find that the push and pull and "negotiation" of motorists slowing down to figure out what a cyclist is doing/may do, is a safer situation.
They do drive slower... admittedly... or speed up to buzz you (GRIN). But I think that situation causes tension that can be reduced by putting in a BL.
Anyway, it is silly to compare this unpainted 7 lane road to anything, other that to note that the lack of lanes (or any paint on road, including stop lines, x-walks, etc.) caused people to drive slower.
Al
#655
Banned.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
I just don't find that the push and pull and "negotiation" of motorists slowing down to figure out what a cyclist is doing/may do, is a safer situation.
They do drive slower... admittedly... or speed up to buzz you (GRIN). But I think that situation causes tension that can be reduced by putting in a BL.
They do drive slower... admittedly... or speed up to buzz you (GRIN). But I think that situation causes tension that can be reduced by putting in a BL.
You're right... they do drive slower when they're passing a cyclist in a WOL (as opposed to a BL), and thus reduce the passing speed differential... another good thing.
Push and pull...
Negotiation...
Slowing down...
Attention...
It's all good...
#656
Banned.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
And here is where we part company... you tend to discount the feelings of others; cyclists and motorists alike. You feel that since you have no increased tension, ALL interactions are like this.
This is simply not true.
This is simply not true.
Now, like anything else, if you're not used to doing something, you might be a little uncomfortable doing it the first few times, and that's true with taking a lane or riding assertively in a WOL (as opposed to hugging the curb). But as cycling advocates, we should be encouraging cyclists to take the leap, not enabling separationist mentality and behavior by supporting bike lanes.
The variations of both motorists and cyclists out there are apparently beyond your empathic abilities.
I just don't believe in co-dependent enabling behavior, and that's what supporting and building bike lanes amounts to.
Other cyclists report tensions manifested in words, gestures, and other agressive behaviours.
Motorists write letters to newspapers and call into radio programs with rants about cyclists.
To deny this is being blind to reality.
To deny this is being blind to reality.
Many cyclists enjoy bike lanes... this has been shown in multiple surveys.
If you are in a WOL, you are in the same position on the road as you would be in a BL, and thus you have the same visibility.
They are aware, however they may not be as concerned, as a BL make you more predictable.
And the motorist assuming the cyclist is more predictable because of the stripe is precisely what makes the BL situation so dangerous! Of course, what does the painted stripe have to do with making the cyclist predictable? What's likely to make him swerve (a pot hole, a patch of glass, a big piece of debris, etc.) is no more or less likely to be there because of the stripe. In fact, the stripe makes the glass and debris more likely to be there. Yet people like you think the stripe has some kind of magic effect to cause this cyclist not to swerve should he encounter a pot hole? What on earth makes you think a cyclist in a BL is more predictable than a cyclist riding in the same position in a WOL?
#657
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Serge *******
Ironically, it's the "other cyclists" who hug the curbs and generally do not ride vehicularly that provide these reports. Coincidence? I think not.
And the motorist assuming the cyclist is more predictable because of the stripe is precisely what makes the BL situation so dangerous!
Cite the data that shows BL are more dangerous... or is it simply your assumption.
#658
Banned.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
Originally Posted by Serge *******
And the motorist assuming the cyclist is more predictable because of the stripe is precisely what makes the BL situation so dangerous!
It's a logical conclusion based on reason, and premises that you've already accepted:
- Motorists (like you, apparently) assume that cyclists are more predictable because of a painted stripe.
- Because motorists assume cyclists in bike lanes are more predictable because of the painted stripe, they are more likely to pass with a smaller safety margin (not slow down, not adjust their position to be further left) than they would if there was no stripe.
- Because cyclists are just as likely to swerve to avoid an obstacle, and the presence of the obstacle is no less likely to be there because of the stripe (arguably more likely), regardless of the presence of the stripe, cyclists are actually no more predictable in bike lanes than when in the same position in a WOL.
- Because motorists are likely to pass a cyclist in a BL with a smaller safety margin than a cyclist in a WOL, and because there is no basis to justify a smaller safety margin (it's just as dangerous), the BL situation is more dangerous than the WOL situation.
There you have it, a logical argument that concludes the BL situation is more dangerous based on premises you've already accepted, and reason.
#659
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Serge *******
My assertion that the BL situation is dangerous is not based on data, nor is it an assumption.
It's a logical conclusion based on reason, and premises that you've already accepted:
There you have it, a logical argument that concludes the BL situation is more dangerous based on premises you've already accepted, and reason.
It's a logical conclusion based on reason, and premises that you've already accepted:
- Motorists (like you, apparently) assume that cyclists are more predictable because of a painted stripe.
- Because motorists assume cyclists in bike lanes are more predictable because of the painted stripe, they are more likely to pass with a smaller safety margin (not slow down, not adjust their position to be further left) than they would if there was no stripe.
- Because cyclists are just as likely to swerve to avoid an obstacle, and the presence of the obstacle is no less likely to be there because of the stripe (arguably more likely), regardless of the presence of the stripe, cyclists are actually no more predictable in bike lanes than when in the same position in a WOL.
- Because motorists are likely to pass a cyclist in a BL with a smaller safety margin than a cyclist in a WOL, and because there is no basis to justify a smaller safety margin (it's just as dangerous), the BL situation is more dangerous than the WOL situation.
There you have it, a logical argument that concludes the BL situation is more dangerous based on premises you've already accepted, and reason.
I question your logic based on other radical theories you have posted, such as your DCLLB or what ever it was.
I also question your logic based on your dichromatic views.
I further question your logic based on the fact that you have agreed that some BL have utility and yet you wish to elminate all BL past, present, and future, without knowing what the future can bring.
I question your logic based on the premises you present: point 1. Any vehicle, as demonstrated, by the lack of lane lines in the example presented by noisebeam, will track a more predictable track when lane lines are present. Point 3... cyclist will swerve whether in a BL or not.... swerving in a WOL can be just as dangerous as in a BL. And point 4, there is no safety margin in a WOL... none what so ever... it is up to the motorist to determine any safety margin, thus a safety margin can and will be highly variable as determined by the mood, conditions, and traffic that said motorist encounters.
#660
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
1. Any vehicle, as demonstrated, by the lack of lane lines in the example presented by noisebeam, will track a more predictable track when lane lines are present.
Al
#661
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
That is the wrong conclusion from what I explained. In the example of a 7-lane road with no painted markers, the cars in the right most lane, tracked a fine straight line, actually further from the curb than with lines, when no lane makers were present. It was the cars in the middle lanes that had more difficulty trackinga straight line as the nearest point of reference was 24ft to their right.
Al
Al
Perhaps I have fallen into the thinking process of Serge's, where "any assumptions=valid conclusions... "
Sorry, if that is indeed the case, but I just don't buy his arguments based on his thinking process.
Thanks for setting me straight...
#662
Banned.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
I question your logic based on other radical theories you have posted, such as your DCLLB or what ever it was.
I also question your logic based on your dichromatic views.
I further question your logic based on the fact that you have agreed that some BL have utility and yet you wish to elminate all BL past, present, and future, without knowing what the future can bring.
I also question your logic based on your dichromatic views.
I further question your logic based on the fact that you have agreed that some BL have utility and yet you wish to elminate all BL past, present, and future, without knowing what the future can bring.
I question your logic based on the premises you present: point 1. Any vehicle, as demonstrated, by the lack of lane lines in the example presented by noisebeam, will track a more predictable track when lane lines are present.
Point 3... cyclist will swerve whether in a BL or not.... swerving in a WOL can be just as dangerous as in a BL.
And point 4, there is no safety margin in a WOL... none what so ever... it is up to the motorist to determine any safety margin, thus a safety margin can and will be highly variable as determined by the mood, conditions, and traffic that said motorist encounters.
So the issues comes down to the role of the stripe, or its absence, in the "conditions" that determine the variable safety margin.
In particular, does the stripe tend to cause the average passing safety margin, as measured by speed differential and passing distance, to increase or decrease?
It is logical to conclude that because motorists assume that cyclists are more predictable because of a painted stripe (a point you do not dispute), they are less concerned about the safety margin than when there is no stripe. Because they are less concerned about the safety margin when there is a stripe, they are less likely to adjust their driving (speed, lane position) to increase the safety margin. Therefore, the average passing safety margin (as measured by speed differential and passing distance) tends to be lower when a cyclist is riding in a bike lane then when riding in a WOL.
#663
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
As a cyclist, while in a bike lane, I find that I am more predictable by having a space, well defined, that I can comfortably use. When not in a BL, I find I sometimes have to negotiate with drivers... sometimes indicating to them to go around, or take the other lane, I find this tedious and somewhat nerve racking. I also find that many drivers tend to come up, slow down, hesitate and then move on, some in an agressive manner, as if to demonstrate how close and fast they can handle their vehicles.
As far as tracking, I tend to track very well thank you, and use both the curb and the line to help center me in the lane. I find that this "centering action" tends to provide plenty of safety margin. I also wisely chose to swerve to the outside when encountering obstacles, or I signal to leave the lane when sometimes necessary. This is easily done on my commuter bike with wide tires and a mirror. With my road bike I do not move about as much as I do not have a mirror... but then I also tend to avoid heavily trafficed areas while using that bike... thus I find I can hear approaching traffic more easily.
As a motorist, I notice that other drivers also center in defined lanes, this leaves plenty of room between any auto and any BL. I also notice that as other motorists encounter cyclists NOT in bike lanes, they tend to brake and hesitate. But then I do actually observe both the actions of other motorists and cyclists... especially as my wife very much enjoys driving, and I therefore get to ride in the passenger seat and watch the craziness that seems to go unnoticed by some.
BTW as far as responding to your questions... since you have failed to address the issue of BL having utility in some circumstances, I find it less than sincere of you to continue with your dismissal of all bike lanes past, present, and future.
As far as tracking, I tend to track very well thank you, and use both the curb and the line to help center me in the lane. I find that this "centering action" tends to provide plenty of safety margin. I also wisely chose to swerve to the outside when encountering obstacles, or I signal to leave the lane when sometimes necessary. This is easily done on my commuter bike with wide tires and a mirror. With my road bike I do not move about as much as I do not have a mirror... but then I also tend to avoid heavily trafficed areas while using that bike... thus I find I can hear approaching traffic more easily.
As a motorist, I notice that other drivers also center in defined lanes, this leaves plenty of room between any auto and any BL. I also notice that as other motorists encounter cyclists NOT in bike lanes, they tend to brake and hesitate. But then I do actually observe both the actions of other motorists and cyclists... especially as my wife very much enjoys driving, and I therefore get to ride in the passenger seat and watch the craziness that seems to go unnoticed by some.
BTW as far as responding to your questions... since you have failed to address the issue of BL having utility in some circumstances, I find it less than sincere of you to continue with your dismissal of all bike lanes past, present, and future.
#664
Banned.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Gene, tossing our opinions at each other does not get us anywhere.
We have established certain points on which I agree. I have taken those points, and presented a logical argument based on those premises. It concludes that in general, safety margins are greater when a cyclist is riding in a WOL than when he is riding in BL, and, therefore, riding in a WOL is safer than riding in a BL.
Your post #663 does not address this argument. Are you challenging any of the premises? No. Are you challenging the logic or reasoning that leads to the conclusion? No. So do you agree with me on the conclusion?
I don't understand the point of this with respect to the argument I presented in #658. Does it challenge any of the premises? No. Does it challenge the logic? No. What's the point?
We have established certain points on which I agree. I have taken those points, and presented a logical argument based on those premises. It concludes that in general, safety margins are greater when a cyclist is riding in a WOL than when he is riding in BL, and, therefore, riding in a WOL is safer than riding in a BL.
Your post #663 does not address this argument. Are you challenging any of the premises? No. Are you challenging the logic or reasoning that leads to the conclusion? No. So do you agree with me on the conclusion?
since you have failed to address the issue of BL having utility in some circumstances,...
#665
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
As I said before it was a unique situation and one should not draw any conclusions other than what I observed:
1. When no lines are painted on a 7-lane road, vehicles tend to drive slower
2. When no line is painted to define a narrow outside lane, cars will drive further from the curb than they would otherwise do when 'confined' to a narrow outside lane.
Now on to a completely different example of a WOL on multilane roads where there are dashed lines painted to divide the lanes and a curb to define the right side of the outside lane, I find that cars almost always track to (use as a reference) the painted line on their left, not the curb on their right, so the end up being left biased in the wide outside lane.
Al
1. When no lines are painted on a 7-lane road, vehicles tend to drive slower
2. When no line is painted to define a narrow outside lane, cars will drive further from the curb than they would otherwise do when 'confined' to a narrow outside lane.
Now on to a completely different example of a WOL on multilane roads where there are dashed lines painted to divide the lanes and a curb to define the right side of the outside lane, I find that cars almost always track to (use as a reference) the painted line on their left, not the curb on their right, so the end up being left biased in the wide outside lane.
Al
#666
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Serge *******
Gene, tossing our opinions at each other does not get us anywhere.
We have established certain points on which I agree. I have taken those points, and presented a logical argument based on those premises. It concludes that in general, safety margins are greater when a cyclist is riding in a WOL than when he is riding in BL, and, therefore, riding in a WOL is safer than riding in a BL.
Your post #663 does not address this argument. Are you challenging any of the premises? No. Are you challenging the logic or reasoning that leads to the conclusion? No. So do you agree with me on the conclusion?
I don't understand the point of this with respect to the argument I presented in #658. Does it challenge any of the premises? No. Does it challenge the logic? No. What's the point?
We have established certain points on which I agree. I have taken those points, and presented a logical argument based on those premises. It concludes that in general, safety margins are greater when a cyclist is riding in a WOL than when he is riding in BL, and, therefore, riding in a WOL is safer than riding in a BL.
Your post #663 does not address this argument. Are you challenging any of the premises? No. Are you challenging the logic or reasoning that leads to the conclusion? No. So do you agree with me on the conclusion?
I don't understand the point of this with respect to the argument I presented in #658. Does it challenge any of the premises? No. Does it challenge the logic? No. What's the point?
Serge your opinions have no more weight than mine...
You have no more data than I, and I do not trust your reasoning as the conclusions are pre-established.
Post 663 ended with the fact that while you do find utility in some bike lanes, you persist that they should not exist, thus countering yourself. Also you are trying to predict the future and say that nothing in the future should exist, in spite of possible unforseeable improvements in technology...
#667
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
One thing I am pleased to see is that over time Serge has more often commented on the benefits of WOLs instead of framing the debate as BLs vs. nothing at all (i.e. a narrow lane)
Al
Al
#668
Banned.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
I did challage your logic and you refuse to accept it... so we are in balance.
You have not even addressed the logic presented in the post #658 argument, much less challenged it.
By the way, it's not my logic. It's either logic, or it isn't. If you think the argument is not logical, then please explain what is not logical about it.
Serge your opinions have no more weight than mine...
You have no more data than I, and I do not trust your reasoning as the conclusions are pre-established.
I'm not asking you to trust my reasoning, or my opinion, or anything else. I'm asking you to examine the reasoning I presented, and let me know if you see any any flaws in it (and, if you do, tell me what they are).
Post 663 ended with the fact that while you do find utility in some bike lanes, you persist that they should not exist, ...
thus countering yourself.
Also you are trying to predict the future and say that nothing in the future should exist, in spite of possible unforseeable improvements in technology...
Last edited by Serge Issakov; 03-24-05 at 05:50 PM.
#669
Banned.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
One thing I am pleased to see is that over time Serge has more often commented on the benefits of WOLs instead of framing the debate as BLs vs. nothing at all (i.e. a narrow lane)
Al
Al
Presenting the argument that WOLs are more beneficial to cyclists than are BLs is easier than presenting the argument that a narrow lane is more beneficial to cyclists than a wide lane with a BL. Let's just say it's easier to establish the necessary and generally accepted premises for the WOL argument than for the narrow lane argument.
Maybe we'll get there...
#670
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
What's the point... sigh...
#671
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by Serge *******
I'm just lazy.
Presenting the argument that WOLs are more beneficial to cyclists than are BLs is easier than presenting the argument that a narrow lane is more beneficial to cyclists than a wide lane with a BL. Let's just say it's easier to establish the necessary and generally accepted premises for the WOL argument than for the narrow lane argument.
Maybe we'll get there...
Presenting the argument that WOLs are more beneficial to cyclists than are BLs is easier than presenting the argument that a narrow lane is more beneficial to cyclists than a wide lane with a BL. Let's just say it's easier to establish the necessary and generally accepted premises for the WOL argument than for the narrow lane argument.
Maybe we'll get there...
But I don't and will never agree that narrow lanes are preferred over a wide lane with a marked BL.
So I don't think we (me and pro-narrow lane only folks) will ever get 'there' (but imagine it will be a fun and drawn out discussion )
Al
#672
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
What's the point... sigh...
Al
#673
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
To eventually remove all motorized vehicles from city and suburban streets by slowing making BLs wider and wider until there is no car lane left!
Al
Al
#674
Banned.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This an update to the argument I originally presented in post #663.
It's fundamentally the same. I've just clarified some of the stuff, added a lot of detail, and broken it up into assumptions, premises, reasoning, and conclusion.
The only reasonable challenges to this argument are the same as for any logical argument: either dispute the assumptions or premises, or point out where the reasoning or logic is flawed. Otherwise, you must accept the conclusion.
If the conclusion follows logically from the premises, then it is a valid argument. But you only have to accept the conclusion if you also accept the assumptions and premises.
To challenge this argument, there is no need to address every point. If there are any assumptions or premises you find unacceptable, please point them out (and explain why). If you find the reasoning is flawed, or the conclusion does not follow logically, please explain how and why. If you do challenge the argument, please specify which part of it you are challenging.
ASSUMPTIONS
PREMISES
REASONING
CONCLUSION
Because motorists are likely to pass a cyclist in a BL with a smaller safety margin than a cyclist in a WOL, and because there is no basis to justify a smaller safety margin (cyclists are just as likely to swerve), the BL situation is more dangerous than the WOL situation.
It's fundamentally the same. I've just clarified some of the stuff, added a lot of detail, and broken it up into assumptions, premises, reasoning, and conclusion.
The only reasonable challenges to this argument are the same as for any logical argument: either dispute the assumptions or premises, or point out where the reasoning or logic is flawed. Otherwise, you must accept the conclusion.
If the conclusion follows logically from the premises, then it is a valid argument. But you only have to accept the conclusion if you also accept the assumptions and premises.
To challenge this argument, there is no need to address every point. If there are any assumptions or premises you find unacceptable, please point them out (and explain why). If you find the reasoning is flawed, or the conclusion does not follow logically, please explain how and why. If you do challenge the argument, please specify which part of it you are challenging.
ASSUMPTIONS
- We are comparing the safety of cycling on a long, straight stretch of intersectionless high-speed/high-volume (say 50mph speed limit) multi-lane road with a wide outside lane (say 17 feet wide) with and without a bike lane.
- In the BL scenario, the BL stripe is 6" wide, solid, and is painted 5.5 feet from the edge of the roadway. This leaves 11 feet of the 17' lane for the motorists.
- Pavement conditions are not known and are assumed to be "typical". The road may or may not have pot holes, cracks, etc. It is assumed the existence of the stripe does not affect the pavement conditions.
- Debris conditions are not known and are assumed to be "typical". It is assumed that the amount of debris that falls onto the roadway is not affected by the existence of the stripe.
- The "passing safety margin" of a motorist passing a cyclist is determined by the speed differential and the distance between the motorist's vehicle and the cyclist. The less the speed differential and the greater the distance the wider the "passing safety margin".
- How safe a giving passing situation is is based on the magnitude of the "passing safety margin". The wider the margin, the safer.
PREMISES
- In a 17' WOL, a motorist in a typical 7' wide vehicle passing a cyclist will, after adjusting his position to the left and slowing down some (how much he adjusts is dependent on the position of the cyclist), typically drive about 0-3' to the right of the left edge of the lane, leaving 7-10' of space to his right for the cyclist.
- In WOLs, cyclists typically ride 3 or more feet to the right of the passing stream of motorists. On high-speed roads, it is more like at least 4 or 5 feet to the right of motorists.
- Motorists assume that cyclists riding in bike lanes are more predictable than are cyclists riding in WOLs because of the painted stripe.
- Cyclists feel safer riding in bike lanes because they are confident motorists will not cross the BL stripe and hit them from behind.
- The motion of a 50+ mph motor vehicle generally causes roadway debris to be blown in a direction away from the vehicle.
- For the most part, motorists tend not to drive in bike lanes designated by a solid stripe (regardless of whether cyclists are present).
- Motorists driving in wide outside lanes bias to the left, but the 5' of pavement near the edge of the WOL tends to get considerably more travel than does that same pavement when demarcated by a BL stripe.
- Debris tends to accumulate at the edge of the road where there is essentially no motor traffic.
- Cyclists tend to gravitate away from puncture and crash-causing debris covered pavement to cleaner pavement.
- When riding in a WOL, the cyclist has the right-of-way in that lane, which the passing motorist must take care not to violate.
- When riding in a BL, the cyclist does not have any right-of-way in the adjacent lane used by the motorist.
REASONING
- Because motorists assume cyclists in bike lanes are more predictable because of the painted stripe, and because the cyclists have no right-of-way in the motorist's lane, they are likely to not slow down and not adjust their position to be further left as they pass a cyclist riding in an adjacent bike lane.
- Because motorists assume cyclists riding along the edge of a WOL are less predictable, and because the WOL cyclist has the right-of-way, they are likely to slow and and adjust their position to be further left as they are passing a cyclist riding in the WOL.
- In a 17' lane divided into a 11' main travel lane and a 6' BL, motorists in typical 7' wide vehicles typically drive within inches of the BL stripe, regardless of the presence of cyclists in the BL.
- Because of the lack of sweeping effect by motor traffic in the BL, BLs tend to accumulate much of the debris that falls onto the roadway and is swept to the side by passing motorists. This, along with the sense of confidence cyclists often feel riding in bike lanes, causes cyclists to tend to ride near or on the BL stripe, or about 5-6' to the left of the right edge of the roadway.
- In a 17' WOL, with the right edge of passing 7' wide motorist traffic at about 8' from the left edge, cyclists tend to ride 4 or more feet to the right of that, or 2-5' to the left of the right edge of the roadway.
- Because cyclists are just as likely to swerve to avoid an obstacle regardless of the presence of the stripe, cyclists are actually no more predictable in bike lanes than when they are riding in the same position in a WOL.
CONCLUSION
Because motorists are likely to pass a cyclist in a BL with a smaller safety margin than a cyclist in a WOL, and because there is no basis to justify a smaller safety margin (cyclists are just as likely to swerve), the BL situation is more dangerous than the WOL situation.
Last edited by Serge Issakov; 03-24-05 at 07:58 PM.
#675
Banned.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
What's the point... sigh...
I'm willing to put my opinion, at least the one that holds that WOL cycling is safer than BL cycling, even on long/straight intersectionless sections, up to such scrutiny (and have).
Last edited by Serge Issakov; 03-24-05 at 08:00 PM.