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-   -   Tire weight: simple or complex (https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/915193-tire-weight-simple-complex.html)

cplager 10-06-13 08:55 AM


Originally Posted by chaadster (Post 16136902)
I honestly don't understand what you're talking about anymore, and it seems like you keep repeating the same things and avoiding all the other issues, so I think this conversation has run its course for me.

If this isn't clear enough for you:


What almost everybody is actually talking about when they say heavy tires feel slow is that fast rolling tires roll a lot more poorly than slow rolling tires.
Then I think it's pretty clear where the issue is.

If it's the math that's too complicated for you, well, then there's help for that, too.
If this isn't

Pedaleur 10-06-13 02:51 PM


Originally Posted by chaadster (Post 16136128)
...so I'm content to conserve energy in my much more frequent acceleration needs...

In your example (small accelerations with each pedal stroke), the frequency of deceleration is the same as the frequency of acceleration.

The flywheel analogy is fine.

chaadster 10-06-13 07:36 PM


Originally Posted by Pedaleur (Post 16137688)
In your example (small accelerations with each pedal stroke), the frequency of deceleration is the same as the frequency of acceleration.

The flywheel analogy is fine.

Perhaps, but the bike is accelerating, which is the important, not the coasting.

A bicycle wheel is not a flywheel by any definition; it is not designed as such, does not maintain uniform speed, and is isolated, except in the case of a fixie, from performing as such, by the freewheel. I can go to any dictionary and pull the definition of 'flywheel' and it does not describe a bicycle wheel.

prathmann 10-06-13 08:55 PM


Originally Posted by chaadster (Post 16138368)
Perhaps, but the bike is accelerating, which is the important, not the coasting.

No one in this discussion is talking about coasting besides you.

What we are talking about is the slight variation in speed as you go through a complete pedal revolution. When you're pushing down hard on one of the pedals the bike accelerates slightly. OTOH, when the pedals are at the top&bottom of their rotation you can't apply as much force and the bike decelerates slightly. With light wheels there will be a little more of this periodic variation in speed whereas with heavier wheels the variation will be reduced due to the 'flywheel effect' of the heavy wheels having more angular momentum and maintaining the speed of the bike better during the period that you don't apply quite as much pedal force. Note that while undergoing this periodic acceleration/deceleration cycle while pedaling, the freewheel or freehub mechanism never comes into this since at no point do you let up completely on the pedal force and therefore the ratchet inside those devices never clicks.

chaadster 10-06-13 11:13 PM


Originally Posted by prathmann (Post 16138551)
No one in this discussion is talking about coasting besides you.

What we are talking about is the slight variation in speed as you go through a complete pedal revolution. When you're pushing down hard on one of the pedals the bike accelerates slightly. OTOH, when the pedals are at the top&bottom of their rotation you can't apply as much force and the bike decelerates slightly. With light wheels there will be a little more of this periodic variation in speed whereas with heavier wheels the variation will be reduced due to the 'flywheel effect' of the heavy wheels having more angular momentum and maintaining the speed of the bike better during the period that you don't apply quite as much pedal force. Note that while undergoing this periodic acceleration/deceleration cycle while pedaling, the freewheel or freehub mechanism never comes into this since at no point do you let up completely on the pedal force and therefore the ratchet inside those devices never clicks.

How are you calculating this 'little periodic variation in speed' ?

There are lots of calculators for impact of weight on energy expenditure, to which I can provide links, if you're interested.

Anecdotally, this test, if you haven't seen it, is interesting (if not definitive): http://www.training4cyclists.com/how...on-alpe-dhuez/

Similarly, though not addressing inertial weight explicitly: http://middleagecyclist.blogspot.com...ers-study.html

Ivy wang 10-07-13 01:04 AM


Originally Posted by tarwheel (Post 16109869)
I can't provide the math or physics to support it, but my personal experience is that extra weight on wheels makes a big difference. It might not be that big a deal if you are riding on flat terrain or putzing along, but you will definitely notice it on the hills or when accelerating hard.

Yes,the extra weight on wheels will increase more drag force,especially on the mountain road.However the bigger tire can load more weight.:lol:

cplager 10-07-13 06:06 AM


Originally Posted by chaadster (Post 16138790)
Anecdotally, this test, if you haven't seen it, is interesting (if not definitive): http://www.training4cyclists.com/how...on-alpe-dhuez/

This one is actually interesting.

They put water (1.8 L = 1.8 kg = 4 lbs) in the tires or on the bike (or no where) and climbed Alpe D'Huez.

You see a 1.3% difference between having the water in the wheels than just on the bike. If you take the different power for the run into account, the difference drops to 0.6% (or so).

This is similar to what I suggested by putting weight on the spokes, except that

(1) I wonder how much the water affects rolling resistance (I'm assuming the pumped the tires up to the same pressure) and

(2) since there is air in the tire as well, then the water is sloshing to some degree. I wonder what affect that had.

They didn't state how much the rider and the bike weighed. But given that they added 4 lbs and saw such a minimal difference (call it 1.3% if you don't like the 0.6%), this anecdotal evidence, I think this shows the magnitude of the problem of "heavy tires" (and I'm willing to bet that the combination of this rider and his bike are lighter than probably any of us having this discussion).


Originally Posted by chaadster (Post 16138790)
Similarly, though not addressing inertial weight explicitly: http://middleagecyclist.blogspot.com...ers-study.html

This one, not so much. They didn't make sure they had the same tires on both bikes (we know rolling resistance makes a big difference), nor make sure they had the same aerodynamic profile (depending on rider speed, this could be pretty much the biggest difference we're going to see).

Pedaleur 10-07-13 04:13 PM


Originally Posted by chaadster (Post 16138368)
Perhaps, but the bike is accelerating, which is the important, not the coasting.

A bicycle wheel is not a flywheel by any definition; it is not designed as such, does not maintain uniform speed, and is isolated, except in the case of a fixie, from performing as such, by the freewheel. I can go to any dictionary and pull the definition of 'flywheel' and it does not describe a bicycle wheel.

There's no coasting.

A flywheel is an energy storage device; in this scenario, the bicycle wheel is storing energy. That energy is not being released to the drive train, but it does go back into the system.

Do an energy balance over one pedal cycle. If the speed of the bike is the same at the start and end, then there is no net change in kinetic energy. When the cyclist puts in energy, the energy is either lost (eg, to wind) or converted to potential energy. The minor variations in speed over on cycle are negligible in terms of energy lost; therefore, regardless of the location of the mass (wheels or bike), the increase in potential energy is the same; therefore the speed is the same.

Pedaleur 10-07-13 04:14 PM


Originally Posted by chaadster (Post 16138790)
Anecdotally, this test, if you haven't seen it, is interesting (if not definitive): http://www.training4cyclists.com/how...on-alpe-dhuez/


Interesting in that almost the entire difference (well within the experimental error, I'd guess) between weight in the wheels and weight on the bike is explained by variations in applied power.

prathmann 10-07-13 05:55 PM


Originally Posted by chaadster (Post 16138790)
Anecdotally, this test, if you haven't seen it, is interesting (if not definitive): http://www.training4cyclists.com/how...on-alpe-dhuez/

Doesn't look like it helps your case much. Comparing the two runs with the same total weight but one having it on the bike and the other with the weight in the tires they observed a difference of 27 sec. out of a total time of about 52 min. or 0.9%. But the run with the weight in the tires also had a lower average power input (275 W vs. 277 W), which amounts to a difference of 0.7%. Those two figures (.7% and .9%) are within the bounds of accuracy of the reported results, so the experiment is entirely consistent with the claim that during a continuous climb there is no difference in the speed whether added weight is in the rotating tires&wheels on in the fixed components of the bike and rider. [I'd also note that rotating weight would have a minor extra effect during the initial acceleration at the start of the climb, and I agree with cplager's concern that putting water inside the tire may affect rolling resistance.]

Also interesting comparing the normal bike to one with reduced tire pressure (runs 3 and 4). The run with reduced pressure (only 3 bar) was slower by 58 sec. or 1.9%, but this run was done with even lower average power, 273 W vs. 278, or 1.8% less. So the reduced pressure appears to also not affect the speed under these conditions.


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