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Originally Posted by CommuteCommando
(Post 16281718)
I often do. Watch for pedestrians.
This, +1. |
caloso
Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post On the straight of the T, with no pedestrians and no traffic turning left towards your direction, and staying on a bike lane or shoulder, I can't think of a single good reason not to run the red. Other than potentially getting a ticket. There's no possibility of cross traffic, no way to disrupt or impede traffic as there would be at a regular intersection. Pedestrians have a right to expect the intersection will be clear when you have red and some will behave accordingly, unconsciously, but where there are no pedestrians or pedestrian crosswalk that's not even a factor. It's not legal, but it should be. Enough said… Also, depends on your area. Seems to be accepted, here. Even on our auto choked arterials. |
Originally Posted by Solid_Spoke
(Post 16283276)
Why does my right to be on road as a cyclist have to be dependent on blindly following laws designed around the automobile? These laws do not benefit or keep me safe as a cyclist. Motor vehicles and bicycles are two completely different modes of transportation, with two very different capabilities and ramifications when things go wrong.
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Originally Posted by Solid_Spoke
(Post 16283276)
Why does my right to be on road as a cyclist have to be dependent on blindly following laws designed around the automobile? These laws do not benefit or keep me safe as a cyclist. Motor vehicles and bicycles are two completely different modes of transportation, with two very different capabilities and ramifications when things go wrong.
I obey laws that make sense. Until very recently it was illegal for a white person to marry a person of African decent in Virginia. Blind obedience to laws, just because they are laws, strikes me as un-American. |
I would blow through it sans pedestrians. I also ignore stop signs and red lights when turning right onto a shoulder. Doesn't hinder anyone or put anyone at any risk. I also jaywalk. I'm also okay with others doing all of these things as well.
What I don't do when I'm driving that I see a lot of people doing is changing lanes in intersections and turning left onto a 2 lane road and not entering into the leftmost lane. Both of those are illegal, but seem to be widely accepted even though they are dangerous practices. |
Running reds is never allowed.
You are allowed to turn right on red after stopping, and turn left on red after stopping if going from a one-way street to another one-way street (i.e. there will be no cross traffic). Gaining a minute or two by not waiting for the light to change is not going to make a big difference. |
Laws are meant to protect people's freedom from other people. You can't steal from someone else. You can't assault someone. You can't start fires and destroy (or potentially destroy) other's property. You can't drive down the road at 100 miles an hour with no regard for other road users safety. You can't go through a red light at a T intersection on the shoulder in no way impairing anyone else. You can't walk around the Mall of America with a hooded sweatshirt covering your head. You cannot purchase alcohol on Sunday in Minnesota.
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I commute into SF, and while I don't ride down Market where your map shows, I do ride on Embarcadero, where basically every interesection is a T intersection.
While heading North, you are always on the side with no cross traffic, and there is a bike lane. Virtually every cyclist in this bike lane goes through red lights as there IS not cross traffic. The only risks for safety are a car turning left onto Embarcadero taking a wide turn and going into the bike lane or pedestrians crossing. Virtually all riders seem to run these reds on this side. Some going flying through, others slow down and/or stop to look for pedestrians and turning cars and then go through. It isn't legal, but people seem to do it and its reasonably safe. Others jump up on the sidewalk to go around the intersection (technically this is legal as this particular sidewalk is technically part of the bay trail MUP). I personally run these reds, after slowing down or stoping to make sure its OK. I generally don't run other reds where there could be cross traffic, even if I don't see any traffic, and I don't go through crosswalks weaving through people, but I see many cyclists doing this both of these along Embarcadero. This is not only illegal but potentially dangerous. I will add a few minutes to my ride to wait at these lights. |
Originally Posted by RPK79
(Post 16283700)
I also ignore stop signs and red lights when turning right onto a shoulder. Doesn't hinder anyone or put anyone at any risk.
If I'm in a car on a through street, and someone coming from my right blows a stop sign or light and turns onto my street, even if they are on the shoulder, it startles me. If I'm close, and I don't know for sure they are going to stay on the shoulder, I might think they didn't notice me, and are about to cross in front of me or merge into my lane, so I might make a panic stop, causing me to skid, or causing, traffic chaos behind me, or I might reflexively swerve to the left without having time to shoulder check. Please don't do that - in your ignorance and blithe confidence, you're causing more stress and risk than you realize. And if I'm on a bike on the through street, with right of way, and and you rudely cut in front of me like that, instead of waiting your turn, I will run you off the road. |
Originally Posted by cooker
(Post 16283832)
As somebody who bikes and drives, I will strongly object to both your behaviour and your assertion that it is harmless.
If I'm in a car on a through street, and someone coming from my right blows a stop sign or light and turns onto my street, even if they are on the shoulder, it startles me. If I'm close, and I don't know for sure they are going to stay on the shoulder, I might think they didn't notice me, and are about to cross in front of me, so I might make a panic stop, causing me to skid, or causing, traffic chaos behind me, or I might reflexively swerve to the left without having time to shoulder check. Please don't do that - you're causing more stress and risk than you realize. And if I'm on a bike on the through street, with right of way, and and you rudely cut in front of me like that, I will run you off the road. |
Originally Posted by mstraus
(Post 16283826)
Virtually every cyclist in this bike lane goes through red lights as there IS not cross traffic. The only risks for safety are a car turning left onto Embarcadero taking a wide turn and going into the bike lane or pedestrians crossing.
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Originally Posted by RPK79
(Post 16283843)
Didn't say that I didn't slow down, look, and signal before making the right. If you're prone to making panic stops when a bike makes a right turn onto the shoulder at 5 mph then you're a hazard to other drivers.
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Originally Posted by cooker
(Post 16283869)
Slowing down to 5 mph is pretty different from "ignoring stop signs and red lights" as you described it earlier.
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Originally Posted by cooker
(Post 16283862)
You forgot about cyclists turning left onto Embarcadero, who are expected to merge into the bike lane and have to somehow avoid colliding with rogue cyclists like you.
As I said I always slow down (very close to a stop or stop depending on visibility) and look before going through, so I will see if there are cyclists who need to merge in an yield to them. The cyclist that blow through without slowing down is more of a concern here. What I hate more then anything is when cyclists weave through pedestrians in a cross walk, often making the pedestrians stop or slow down when THEY have the walk signal. I also don't like when pedestrians with a don't walk symbol cross when bikes are coming through with the green light and expect that the bikes (or cars) should stop for them (I wonder how many of these would do the same if it was a car coming at 35 mph. |
Originally Posted by RPK79
(Post 16283876)
Is it? That's exactly how I would treat the same turn if there were no stop sign there.
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Originally Posted by cooker
(Post 16283901)
Really? 5 mph? If you say so.
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Maybe replacing "run red light" to "roll through red light with caution" in the thread title would be more acceptable?
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Not all laws are meant to protect. Does income tax protect anyone? Does forbidding prostitution protect anyone? Does requiring motor vehicles to be registered protect anyone?
Bottom line, if you want equal rights on the road, follow the laws. Is it okay to do an "Idaho stop" when safe to do so? Sure. I'd be lying if I said I never went through a stop sign. But in an urban environment where you might not see a car coming in from that side street? I'm stopping at the red every time. |
I'm genuinely pleased to see how much support there is for following basic rules of the road in this thread; there have been a few that have gone by in recent months which were dominated by the opinion that cycling is so morally superior to motoring - or unfairly marginalized by it - that a rider should have license to ignore whatever rules they choose. How anyone can rage about dangerous drivers blowing through stop signs or intersections and in the same breath demand the right to do exactly those same things because they happen to occupy the roadway on a bike is completely beyond me.
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the problem with that line of thinking is that there are plenty of laws that no one follows and are not enforced. They aren't really laws at that point, even if they're still on the books. My favorite is the requirement to stop at the city limits in Ft Worth Texas and sound your horn before proceeding into the city. To warn the horses. Those laws are everywhere and people are in unknowing violation constantly. They may have made sense at some point, or might have even been a joke from the start - it's illegal to each chicken with a fork in a neighboring city here.
We may not approve of it but the reality is, this is one way that our laws evolve. If they become pointless, and most people ignore them, then the law withers from lack of enforcement. Sometimes repealed but more often not; it's just not a real law any more. This particular situation, where there is no possible downside other than someone seeing you "break the law" and thus is consistently ignored, could be seen as belonging to that genre. |
Originally Posted by RPK79
(Post 16283920)
90 degree turn on a 3 foot shoulder. Yeah, I'm going to take it slow.
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Originally Posted by spivonious
(Post 16284008)
Not all laws are meant to protect. Does income tax protect anyone?
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i'm a huge fan of running lights in this kind of situation. imo, people who sit at a T-intersection like hapless "bicycle drivers" make us all look bad.
Originally Posted by DiegoFrogs
(Post 16281764)
Legal? I doubt it. Why would it be any different for you than it is for any other person? Why would it be any different in that situation than it is in any other?
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Bringing it back to the original topic. Is there a legitimate reason other than "it's the law" to stop at a red light if you are traveling on the shoulder of the straight section of a T intersection? You are in no danger from the traffic unless they take an extremely wide left turn veering off the road into the shoulder or they miss their turn and T bone you. Both of these are not likely.
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 16283468)
Legal? No of course not.
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Originally Posted by cooker
(Post 16283832)
As somebody who bikes and drives, I strongly object to both your behaviour and your assertion that it is harmless.
your walter mittyesque rant is irrelevant to the current the topic since no one here stated that they would "cross in front" or "cut in front". |
Originally Posted by wphamilton
(Post 16284087)
... My favorite is the requirement to stop at the city limits in Ft Worth Texas and sound your horn before proceeding into the city. To warn the horses...
I have encountered horses being ridden on bike routes/MUPs here, and the riders do appreciate it when the cyclists call out a warning and slow down before passing. I never want to spook a horse. Back on topic: by following the laws, traffic is more predictable, less chaotic, and presumably safer and less stressful for all. The "everyone else does it" argument belongs to gradeschoolers. :) |
Originally Posted by nkfrench
(Post 16284271)
Really! This is the first I've heard of this one, it's a good thing I have that bell on my bike.
I have encountered horses being ridden on bike routes/MUPs here, and the riders do appreciate it when the cyclists call out a warning and slow down before passing. I never want to spook a horse. Back on topic: by following the laws, traffic is more predictable, less chaotic, and presumably safer and less stressful for all. The "everyone else does it" argument belongs to gradeschoolers. :) btw, I think it's also still illegal to carry fencing wire cutters in your glove box. |
+1 on Brennan's post:
Originally Posted by Brennan
(Post 16282549)
Motorists often criticize cyclists for breaking traffic laws. I don't buy it. First off, I'd be willing to wager that most motorists are serial lawbreakers themselves, most commonly in the form of exceeding the speed limit. You can test this yourself. Drive a car around at the exact speed limit and observe how many other cars pass or tailgate you. On some stretches of road, I've observed 100% of cars in violation. No, they just use the lawbreaking as a blunt tool to bash the entire cycling community with. If every cyclist obeyed every traffic law, the haters would still hate. Why? Because we "get in their way." This is why I sometimes violate the law for their benefit as well as mine. For example, on one of my regular routes, I have to leave the bike lane and cross two lanes of traffic to enter a left turn lane and make a left. The preceding intersection has a stoplight with very little cross traffic. So, I usually stop at the red, look carefully, then proceed through the intersection and make my way to the left lane to make the left turn at the next intersection. This means I am free and clear to do so while the rest of the traffic is stuck at the red light behind me. Were I to follow the law, I would wait until the light turns green, then merge into the moving traffic, annoying all the motorists by "getting in their way" and "slowing them down." Not to mention I simply feel safer crossing these lanes when they are not full of traffic. Bottom line is the traffic laws were written for motor vehicles, not bicycles, so following them as a cyclist doesn't always work so well. In general, I do follow traffic laws, but I believe certain violations can be justified depending on the circumstances.
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In my experience, the only thing that infuriates motorists more than cyclists breaking traffic laws is cyclists scrupulously complying with traffic laws.
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