Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Commuting
Reload this Page >

Overwhelmed on Rack and Pannier choices. Also, do leather saddles stain clothes?

Notices
Commuting Bicycle commuting is easier than you think, before you know it, you'll be hooked. Learn the tips, hints, equipment, safety requirements for safely riding your bike to work.

Overwhelmed on Rack and Pannier choices. Also, do leather saddles stain clothes?

Old 04-03-14, 09:08 AM
  #26  
gbcb
J3L 2404
 
gbcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 1,075

Bikes: 2007 Jamis Nova

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tractorlegs View Post
Hi Sullalto, and welcome to the asylum we call Bikeforums. There's a reason it's a dot net lol -

1. I have a black Brooks B-17 and wear street clothes on my commutes, and they have not been stained. I also use a pair of white shorts in the summer, no stain there either. Side note: I don't use it any more because it's not comfy for me.

2. Another option, and I'm not trying to be flippant, is to use your current backpack that you said you already don't like - but instead of putting it on your back, put it in a coke crate. I have an inexpensive generic rack that I got over ten years ago (from Performance - it is their house brand, ran maybe $15.00) and zip-tied a Coke crate to it. It's as convenient as heck and not as complicated as panniers. It also doesn't look as good, I guess , if that's an issue. But it's easy when you go to work, just toss the backpack in the crate. Shopping? It carries 2 or 3 bags of vittles. Walgreens? Convenience store? Makes my bike easier to use in a utilitarian fashion. I'm not disagreeing with the "Pannier People" and not wishing to start a fight, just presenting another option. Picture:

I really like that setup. The flexibility of being able to just throw any bag on a crate had for some reason never occurred to me... Do you have a mesh to secure loads on bumpy roads? That would be my main concern
__________________
gbcb is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 10:04 AM
  #27  
cooker
Prefers Cicero
 
cooker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,849

Bikes: 1984 Trek 520; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3927 Post(s)
Liked 97 Times in 78 Posts
I commute on Brooks part of the time and Proofhide the saddles top and bottom once or twice a year (one coat on top, two on the bottom). Once the grease has soaked into the top overnight I wipe off the excess with paper towels. I often commute to work in my office pants (Dockers, Haggar, etc) and mostly they are black or dark blue. Occasionally I have ridden home on a wet saddle. I haven't noticed staining. Maybe I would if I wore lighter coloured pants.

Last edited by cooker; 04-03-14 at 10:12 AM.
cooker is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 10:39 AM
  #28  
Mr IGH
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Yes, a new leather saddle will stain pants, esp when wet. I put a plastic grocery bag over my Brooks in bad weather.

I like the Topeak rack that allows panniers and a wire basket on top:


For lighter loads I can mount a rack bag:


I bought the disc version so it'll work on future bikes.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
P1030297.jpg (45.0 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg
P1030291.jpg (39.2 KB, 32 views)
Mr IGH is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 11:52 AM
  #29  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,599

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,343 Times in 850 Posts
Do leather saddles stain clothes?

There is a long tradition of Black shorts used with leather saddles for a reason.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 03:56 PM
  #30  
Mark Stone
Tractorlegs
 
Mark Stone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 3,185

Bikes: Schwinn Meridian Single-Speed Tricycle

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times in 42 Posts
Originally Posted by gbcb View Post
I really like that setup. The flexibility of being able to just throw any bag on a crate had for some reason never occurred to me... Do you have a mesh to secure loads on bumpy roads? That would be my main concern
I use bungee cords. Also, in the picture do you see the little black velcro strip on the right? I actually have 4 or 5 of those on the crate most times, and wrap them around the "handles" on the plastic bags while riding home from a store.
__________________
********************************
Trikeman
Mark Stone is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 05:31 PM
  #31  
gbcb
J3L 2404
 
gbcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 1,075

Bikes: 2007 Jamis Nova

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tractorlegs View Post
I use bungee cords. Also, in the picture do you see the little black velcro strip on the right? I actually have 4 or 5 of those on the crate most times, and wrap them around the "handles" on the plastic bags while riding home from a store.
Cool!
__________________
gbcb is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 05:52 PM
  #32  
no1mad 
Thunder Whisperer
 
no1mad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NE OK
Posts: 8,852

Bikes: '06 Kona Smoke

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 2 Posts
Dang, tractorlegs, I like your set up better than my old one (easily the best solution for me at the time). Something else that caught my eye was your bar ends- they appear to be pointing outward.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
10171623..jpg (96.2 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg
10171627..jpg (96.9 KB, 18 views)
__________________
Community guidelines
no1mad is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 06:42 PM
  #33  
mstraus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
There are plenty or racks out there that would be fine. Some of it depends on your bike and some on your preference.

What kind of bike do you have, does it have disk brakes, is the chain-stay long enough that you don't need to worry about heel strike? Some situations may make some racks better for you then others. What is your budget, do you care about materials, etc. Do you want a rack that integrates with a specific set of bags for a quick attatchments, etc?

I recently got a Tubus rack and am very impressed with quality, carrying capacity, and its weight. Racktime is a good option. Old man Mountain racks get good reviews. Thule has some interesting systems If you don't need to carry as much weight, something from Blackburn, Topeak, Planet bike, etc would probably serve you just fine.

For waterproof panniers, Ortlieb are great. For commuting you could probably get a pair of front panniers to use on a rear rack. There are plenty of other good options to, depending on desired quality and price target.
mstraus is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 07:03 PM
  #34  
mobilemail
Senior Member
 
mobilemail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Gateway to the West
Posts: 785

Bikes: You mean this week?

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 4 Posts
When I got my very first Brooks saddle I made the mistake of treating it liberally with neatsfoot oil (top and bottom) so it would break in quickly. Don't do that! Not only did I significantly shorten the life of the saddle, but it never stopped significantly staining clothes.
On saddles I owned after that, I started treating the bottom only of a well heated saddle with SnoSeal. This has been successful in a (not too) conditioned saddle with good weather protection and no staining. I should mention that there are a million different ideas on how to prep a saddle for a long life.
mobilemail is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 07:08 PM
  #35  
Retired2013
Senior Member
 
Retired2013's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: South Florida
Posts: 63

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck FG, Worksmans Industrial, a nirve KILROY

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
gbcb,
That's old school! Great job.
Retired2013 is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 09:06 PM
  #36  
gbcb
J3L 2404
 
gbcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 1,075

Bikes: 2007 Jamis Nova

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Retired2013 View Post
gbcb,
That's old school! Great job.
I think you mean tractorlegs I like what I'm running but it's a pretty straightforward rear rack/single pannier setup, neither old- nor new-school!
__________________
gbcb is offline  
Old 04-03-14, 10:34 PM
  #37  
AngeloDolce
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Delaware
Posts: 340

Bikes: Many English 3 Speeds

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 6 Posts
(1) Rack design
I strongly prefer racks where the brace is extended in the back; many have small triangles to be light and cheap, but most bags will flex and periodically get caught in teh spokes.

You can use bags with very rigid backing, but these are harder to find than good racks. (Unless you make panniers out of plastic buckets/cat litte containers. I hear they are very waterproof, if not always stylish.

(2) Saddles
I found the black Brooks saddes were likely to stain lighter clothing after applying proofide/wax, or when they were wet.
(a) All the models now seem to be available in honey - lighter colored saddles won't stain your clothes
(b)If it rains frequently or if you park your bicycle outside, you'll want to protect a leather saddle (plastic bag, saddle cover, etc)
AngeloDolce is offline  
Old 04-04-14, 11:00 AM
  #38  
SlimAgainSoon
Senior Member
 
SlimAgainSoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Down South
Posts: 1,267
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Sullalto View Post
I also need to decide if I'm going to spring for a dynamo and light system...
Get the dynamo. You won't regret it.
SlimAgainSoon is offline  
Old 04-04-14, 11:14 AM
  #39  
rhm
multimodal commuter
 
rhm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,807

Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...

Mentioned: 564 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1886 Post(s)
Liked 472 Times in 294 Posts
Leather won't stain your pants, but there are a lot of things people put on leather, and these will stain. A new Brooks saddle, kept dry, is probably okay; the people at Brooks know how to stain leather. But if it gets wet, or someone has treated it with too much proofide or neatsfoot oil or shoe polish, it will definitely stain. The best way to avoid this is to get a natural colored saddle. Whether that's called "honey" or "brown" is another question; I think what was called "brown" once is called "honey" now, and the ones they call "brown" now are stained to get that color.

Don't listen too much to those who tell you how to "break in" a saddle. If you ride on it, it will gradually change as it gradually wears out. Ideally the trajectory from a new saddle to a worn out one should take something like 50 years or somewhere above 50,000 miles. Treating it with neatsfoot oil or a lot of proofide (or a hammer, or olive oil, or... well, pretty much too much of anything) will reduce those numbers. The more you treat it, the more you reduce them. I've seen saddles ruined with less than a thousand miles of riding.

Proofide is good stuff, when used as needed. If used unnecessarily, not so much.
__________________
www.rhmsaddles.com.
rhm is offline  
Old 04-04-14, 02:53 PM
  #40  
Mark Stone
Tractorlegs
 
Mark Stone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 3,185

Bikes: Schwinn Meridian Single-Speed Tricycle

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times in 42 Posts
Originally Posted by no1mad View Post
Dang, tractorlegs, I like your set up better than my old one (easily the best solution for me at the time). Something else that caught my eye was your bar ends- they appear to be pointing outward.
I pointed them out because of the mirror. Note that I have the mirror mounted on the left bar end, and pointing them out makes the view to the rear outstanding.
__________________
********************************
Trikeman
Mark Stone is offline  
Old 04-07-14, 02:50 PM
  #41  
Harhir
Senior Member
 
Harhir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 629

Bikes: Fahrradmanufaktur Trekking Bike, 2 x Lightning Phantom, bikeE AT, Radwagon3

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 174 Post(s)
Liked 121 Times in 62 Posts
Originally Posted by SlimAgainSoon View Post
There are a lot of good panniers out there, so you are likely to be happy with whatever you choose.
I use the Ortlieb panniers, the Backroller Classic.
Same here. Bought mine in '94 in Germany together with the bike. They are now 20 years old. They are not getting used on a daily basis and I just recently started again to commute by bike. But they are still in great shape.

Originally Posted by SlimAgainSoon View Post
I have two leather saddles, both Brooks. One is black, the other brown. I usually ride with dark shorts, but I did have the brown one leave a stain on a light pair of shorts one time (but only once).
Same here as well. I have a black Brooks on my commuter bike which came with the bike when I bought it 94. I never had any stains. I also have a dark brown Brooks which I bought on of my trips to Germany a few years ago. This one is mounted on my 80s Gazelle bike. Also no problems with stains here.
Harhir is offline  
Old 04-07-14, 03:43 PM
  #42  
alan s 
Senior Member
 
alan s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 6,977
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1496 Post(s)
Liked 189 Times in 128 Posts
Hope the OP is no longer overwhelmed. Let's recap: 11 different rack recommendations, and Brooks saddles either stain like you went in your pants or they don't. Hmm.
alan s is offline  
Old 04-07-14, 04:44 PM
  #43  
cooker
Prefers Cicero
 
cooker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,849

Bikes: 1984 Trek 520; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3927 Post(s)
Liked 97 Times in 78 Posts
Originally Posted by alan s View Post
Hope the OP is no longer overwhelmed. Let's recap: 11 different rack recommendations, and Brooks saddles either stain like you went in your pants or they don't. Hmm.
At least with the racks, the take-away message is that there are many 'right' answers, so no need to stress about making the wrong decision.
cooker is offline  
Old 04-07-14, 05:06 PM
  #44  
PaulRivers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by alan s View Post
Hope the OP is no longer overwhelmed. Let's recap: 11 different rack recommendations, and Brooks saddles either stain like you went in your pants or they don't. Hmm.
Lol, when I started reading this thread, I thought "if he thinks this thread is going to give him less choices, he's got something else coming..."...

The first question I would ask is - does your bike have rack mounts? Second question is - what kind of clothing are you going to be carrying to work?

If your bike has rack mounts, easiest answer is to just buy a Topeak rack -
Amazon.com: Topeak Explorer Bike Rack: Sports & Outdoors

The Topeak rack will carry everything - Topeak quick release bags, non-topeak bags, panniers, etc.


A Topeak bag is nice, to, you can get a trunk bag that expands into having panniers (MTX TrunkBag DXP) -
Amazon.com: Topeak MTX Trunk Bag DXP Bicycle Trunk Bag with Rigid Molded Panels: Sports & Outdoors

Here's the bag not expanded -


Here's the bag when it is expanded -


If you're commute biking, you probably also want the rain cover -
Amazon.com: Topeak MTX Trunk Bag EXP & DXP Bicycle Trunk Bag Rain Cover: Sports & Outdoors



(Not sure why the amazon listing has a silver one in one pic, and a yellow one in another pic...hrm...)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

If you prefer to have seperate, larger panniers, topeak also sells a waterproof trunk bag -
https://www.amazon.com/Topeak-Mtx-Tru...ryBag%2C+Black



P.S. Some of this depends on how much money you have to spend. That's one very nice option. Another option is to buy cheaper stuff, then to just put a big-ass ziploc bag inside your bike bag and waterproof it that way. :-)
PaulRivers is offline  
Old 04-07-14, 05:17 PM
  #45  
bikemig 
Senior Member
 
bikemig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 19,635

Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones

Mentioned: 169 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5542 Post(s)
Liked 2,508 Times in 1,612 Posts
No. 1 on keeping clothes at work. Waterproof bags are good; so are non waterproof bags as long as you use plastic bags for your stuff. Non-waterproof bags are cheaper. For a rack, lots of good choices but I would pay attention to length to avoid heel strike. Keep it simple and have some fun. Personally I keep my clothes at work. I have one bag that attaches to a rack (bags designated as front are good a good choice for commuting since they are not humongous) that I use for repair kit, coffee thermos, lunch, extra clothes, rain kit, etc. Then I use my messenger bag for paperwork which keeps it nice and light.
bikemig is online now  
Old 04-07-14, 07:25 PM
  #46  
ronocnikral
Lurking Under a Rock
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
STP usually carries nice rack every once in a while. I got a racktime rack there for like $25.

Right now, they have this blackburn rack which looks nice for around $20 shipped if you have the latest deal flyer.

Blackburn TRX-1 Ultimate Touring Rack - Save 50%
ronocnikral is offline  
Old 04-07-14, 08:51 PM
  #47  
Null66
Senior Member
 
Null66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Garner, NC 27529
Posts: 2,110

Bikes: Built up DT, 2007 Fuji tourer (donor bike, RIP), 1995 1220 Trek

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Lol, when I started reading this thread, I thought "if he thinks this thread is going to give him less choices, he's got something else coming..."...

The first question I would ask is - does your bike have rack mounts? Second question is - what kind of clothing are you going to be carrying to work?

If your bike has rack mounts, easiest answer is to just buy a Topeak rack -
Amazon.com: Topeak Explorer Bike Rack: Sports & Outdoors

The Topeak rack will carry everything - Topeak quick release bags, non-topeak bags, panniers, etc.


A Topeak bag is nice, to, you can get a trunk bag that expands into having panniers (MTX TrunkBag DXP) -
Amazon.com: Topeak MTX Trunk Bag DXP Bicycle Trunk Bag with Rigid Molded Panels: Sports & Outdoors

Here's the bag not expanded -


Here's the bag when it is expanded -


If you're commute biking, you probably also want the rain cover -
Amazon.com: Topeak MTX Trunk Bag EXP & DXP Bicycle Trunk Bag Rain Cover: Sports & Outdoors
I have these on my bike. I like them a lot. Convenient, securely mounted, very flexible.

I've had them in pouring rain. Rain hard enough that the streets were almost up to bottom bracket and flowing at good clip. Nothing got even damp after over an hour in this w/o the rain cover. Everything was sensitive was in ziplocks anyway but they would have been even if I had the rain cover!

Only downside is that it's fairly heavy.
Null66 is offline  
Old 04-08-14, 08:32 AM
  #48  
Mr IGH
afraid of whales
 
Mr IGH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
I like the Topeak racks, I prefer the Super Tourist version with lower pannier attachments that allow the basket to be mounted with panniers, I find that very important:


Attached Images
File Type: jpg
41Nmh8cQh5L._SX466_.jpg (20.7 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg
P1030297.jpg (45.0 KB, 14 views)
Mr IGH is offline  
Old 04-08-14, 10:45 AM
  #49  
Sullalto
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,206

Bikes: Jamis Quest Comp

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Lol, when I started reading this thread, I thought "if he thinks this thread is going to give him less choices, he's got something else coming..."...

The first question I would ask is - does your bike have rack mounts? Second question is - what kind of clothing are you going to be carrying to work?

:-)
Seriously!

Yes, the bike has rack mounts. I'll be carrying a casual change of clothes(people wear cargo shorts flip flops and t-shirts to work...I dress a bit nicer than that, but don't need a garment bag) plus a couple meals and snacks.

I liked the topeak attachment system, and the transforming trunk/pannier bag when I looked at them at REI. The medium size expanding trunk bag didn't fit my ipad though. Can't deal with that. I did like the idea though, I might end up with one later.

I think I'm going to get the topeak super tourist rack that mr. Igh suggested, and use timbuk2 tandem panniers for now. I can easily imagine myself with a basket+shopping panniers later, and like the topeak attachment system. So it'll fulfill my immediate needs and has some room to grow if I end up collecting different bags for different purposes.

But I can't see myself carrying around the expanding trunk bag every day, for purely shallow fashion reasons. Dedicated panniers could still be a bit of a pain, and i like the separate compartments and reasonable size of he timbuk2 tandem panniers/messenger bags. So they win.
Sullalto is offline  
Old 04-08-14, 10:56 AM
  #50  
Sullalto
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,206

Bikes: Jamis Quest Comp

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Actually I feel better with all the conflicting information. Instead of being nervous about making the right choice, it tells me that it doesn't really matter, and I can probably pull the trigger safely on anything.

Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
I like the Topeak racks, I prefer the Super Tourist version with lower pannier attachments that allow the basket to be mounted with panniers, I find that very important:
I like that rack, but everywhere I see online, says that that rack is intended for disk brakes. I have rim brakes, will it still fit?

My bike is a jamis Hudson sport DLX, if that makes any difference.
Sullalto is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.